Proposal to JV --

[BotanyBay]

People, please send a PM to me with suggestions on what JV needs to open-up about in order to gain/regain trust.

If Francois is willing to act as an in-between, I'll be happy to compile the basic list of questions that this side of the fence wants Mr Vaughters to be willing to answer.

Thank you.

 

[Dewulf]

I do find it very easy to find respect for how JV tries to handle his "damned if I do, damned if I don't" seat.

+1 on this, what he said there definitely rang true to me.

Also impressive that he was prepared to confess his error in assuming Tondo was dirty - willingness to admit your mistakes is a great attribute.

BUT i wonder at the logic in making assumptions about someone's past, based on their current actions now. Don't get me wrong, Tondo deserves credit for doing the right thing with the email he showed to la policia. It doesn't however really prove anything (either way) about his past. And I'm saying that even though i kinda like the guy, he's been my choice in a few races. It's just funny tho how people make assumptions about others because of just one or two known things.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Are you willing to personally broker a compromise? If so, I'll tell you what I need to know. But to just stand on his side and say "He owes you nothing", doesn't sound like someone who's even remotely interested in making peace.

I understand that there are things JV can't say. But there is much that he can say. He chooses to say almost nothing except that he's "on our side" and we're supposed to just believe him.

I need more than that, and so do others.

You obviously are one of those, who take the whole hand if the pinkie finger is offered to them.

Like Francois said (in longer and different words )
Take the middle finger and wait.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

To start, I find today's article by Mr. Vaughters to be very personal and full of true human emotion. We all make judgements about other people, and almost always based on flawed or incomplete information. To admit this in such a public way shows a lot of humility. In return, it is humbling to know that such public judgements reflected back upon Mr. Vaughters affects him.

I'm not sure how to start what I want to say next. I suppose that the problem I see is not the fact that we make judgements of other people. It's the fact that there is usually not enough information to make reasonable assumptions. In Mr. Vaughter's case, the limited information about Mr. Tondo led him to make a judgement - and it was the only reasonable judgement given the situation.

And what is that situation? The climate in cycling is heavy with doping at the athlete level, complicity at the team/ds/doctor level, and outright corruption at the federation level. In such a climate, the only reasonable judgement was that yes, Mr. Tondo could not be trusted to be clean. I don't see how you could fault Mr. Vaughters (and the fans of cycling here in the forums and elsewhere) for coming to such a conclusion.

The only difference I see is that in a forum we talk about it frankly and openly with much gossip and malice.

If Mr Vaughters feels guilty about his judgements based on incomplete understanding of the person invovled, I would suggest the following: Talk publicly and openly. Confront the Xavier Tondos of the world and tell them they won't get a ride because they are on a team with a dirty doctor. Afterwards give an interview to that effect. Shine light on all the dirty doctors, directeurs sportif, team owners, riders and confront them openly. Do it publicly.

If you're wrong, you will know very quickly and may have to issue some apologies. If you are right, you will set riders like Mr. Tondo free - giving them the ability to ride and do it cleanly with the full support of your moral weight.

If you did that, Mr Vaughters, then we in the forums of the cycling world will also be able to make better judgements about you based on a more complete understanding of who you are.

And one last thing: Just because Mr. Tondo exposed what appears to be an amateurish drug ring, what makes you think he rides clean Mr Vaughters? Is it this single act that can eliminate your suspicions? Why does Mr Tondo ride on a team with a dirty doctor? Why doesn't he publicly expose this doctor and remove himself from his association? Why doesn't he publicly condemn the riders who recieve treatment from this doctor? Or is he simply making quiet judgements the way you did. As you can see, that's not very effective at curing what ails your profession.

John Swanson

I agree with your view on how Vaughters has expressed his feelings about Tondo. I find it to be interesting that he felt so strongly about his own mis-judgement that he wrote up the piece and revealed the kind of mental mechanics he'd gone through to arrive at his decision about the rider.

What I find a bit silly, and more to the point unprofessional, that he looped in the treatment he gets on the forum and tries to relate it to his mechanics about Tondo. This is where the piece fails for me.

I'd be very cautious about publicly stating how "hurtful" forum posters are. He is seeking sympathy from the core audience of cycling fans, and these are the same base that post here. I feel every well-thought out inquiry posted here has been deserved. He might not be able to answer them all, and he is clearly selective as to what he will address but I don't think I'd admit that I'd been "hurt" to the same core audience who'd inflicted to "hurt". It is whiny, pathetic and undermines the decent and strong message of the piece that reviews his handling of Tondo. The Tondo "lesson" is enough.

 

[BotanyBay]

JV went on a worldwide public media venue and went "WaWaWa!, I'm so misunderstood! Those meanie message board guys are hurting my feelings!"

OK, so I get it, you're not interested in solving anything. You just want to cuddle his hurt feelings.

Score one for JV. He's again thrown a tantrum and won the sympathies of his intended target.

 

[BotanyBay]

+1 on this, what he said there definitely rang true to me.

Also impressive that he was prepared to confess his error in assuming Tondo was dirty - willingness to admit your mistakes is a great attribute.

BUT i wonder at the logic in making assumptions about someone's past, based on their current actions now. Don't get me wrong, Tondo deserves credit for doing the right thing with the email he showed to la policia. It doesn't however really prove anything (either way) about his past. And I'm saying that even though i kinda like the guy, he's been my choice in a few races. It's just funny tho how people make assumptions about others because of just one or two known things.

Easy to say this about Tondo (now). Because everyone knows Tondo will be persona-non-grata in the peloton.

 

[Ferminal]

BUT i wonder at the logic in making assumptions about someone's past, based on their current actions now. Don't get me wrong, Tondo deserves credit for doing the right thing with the email he showed to la policia. It doesn't however really prove anything (either way) about his past. And I'm saying that even though i kinda like the guy, he's been my choice in a few races. It's just funny tho how people make assumptions about others because of just one or two known things.

Either way you are deciding someone is a doper or clean based on limited information.

But when you're trying to run a team which is clean in both substance and image, is the "innocent until proven guilty" stance sustainable? Is it worse to deny a Tondo (assuming he is clean), or hire someone who turns out to be a "bad apple"?

I found the most interesting part of JV's blog is that even if Slipstream could make Tondo ride clean, JV thought Xavier wouldn't be able to compete at the required level (without PEDs). This is obviously different to the way things were for Millar, DZ and Contador (there was faith in their ability to perform at a high level even without PEDs).

 

[BotanyBay]

You obviously are one of those, who take the whole hand if the pinkie finger is offered to them.

Like Francois said (in longer and different words )
Take the middle finger and wait.

JV went on a worldwide public media venue and went "WaWaWa!, I'm so misunderstood! Those meanie message board guys are hurting my feelings!"

OK, so I get it, you're not interested in solving anything. You just want to cuddle his hurt feelings.

Score one for JV. He's again thrown a tantrum and won the sympathies of his intended target. You.

 

[BotanyBay]

I'd be very cautious about publicly stating how "hurtful" forum posters are. He is seeking sympathy from the core audience of cycling fans, and these are the same base that post here.

My toddler is the last human being I've seen employ such a strategy. She got in trouble, I admonished her, and she went around the room telling anyone that would listen that I'd hurt her feelings. And she put on a pretty good show.

 

[Cobblestoned]

JV went on a worldwide public media venue and went "WaWaWa!, I'm so misunderstood! Those meanie message board guys are hurting my feelings!"

OK, so I get it, you're not interested in solving anything. You just want to cuddle his hurt feelings.

Score one for JV. He's again thrown a tantrum and won the sympathies of his intended target. You.

No, I think JV is at least interested in clean cycling and is at least communicating "with us". Not just to apologize or whine.
I honour that. Could be worse.

Did you ever try to see things from JV's POV ?

He is 1000% right with his opinion about the usual suspects of internetplatforms.
If JV does A -> wahwahwah
If JV does B -> wahwahwah
If JV does C -> wahwahwah
*
*
*
goes till Z

I guess if JV didn't do that blog entry, usual suspects would scream for an apologize to Tondo and point fingers @JV.
If they didn't already do it, and then start complaining about JV's apologize afterwards.

 

[D-Queued]

I have expressed concerns directly to JV about certain of his riders.

I have not posted those concerns on this or any other forum.

The background on those concerns did not come from any forum. The information came from direct conversation with other cyclists who have firsthand information. Information like pills being handed out of support vehicles, or riders injecting during a race. Or, being actively propositioned to get some help (and, "Did you know that I used to coach so-and-so" nod-nod, wink-wink). Or, participation in 'shopping trips'.

Suggesting that more is revealed on this or any other forum is pure bunk. The information revealed here comes from outside the forum. And, like an iceberg, only a small portion is exposed.

I haven't exposed some of what I know because there has been no positive test. Should that day come, my keyboard will not hesitate.

And, sooner or later, given the normative state in the sport, one of JV's riders - probably an ex-rider - will test positive. Maybe they stopped while riding with JV, but won't they become more desperate and have a strong likelihood of returning to past practices after they leave?

Yes, he has received some rough handling by one or two posters in the past. At least one of whom is no longer an active contributor here. That was unfortunate.

Many participants and fans don't like doping. Many are willing to say so. A natural injustice is served when an athlete employs artifice and claims untainted results. The opposition to that will never disappear.

JV has a strident anti-doping stance. Yet, he still doesn't get it?

What audience does he think that stance is playing to?

Dave.

 

[Anonymous]

I found the most interesting part of JV's blog is that even if Slipstream could make Tondo ride clean, JV thought Xavier wouldn't be able to compete at the required level (without PEDs). This is obviously different to the way things were for Millar, DZ and Contador (there was faith in their ability to perform at a high level even without PEDs).

i found this the most interesting part as well...

 

[BotanyBay]

No, I think JV is at least interested in clean cycling and is at least communicating "with us". Not just to apologize or whine.
I honour that. Could be worse.

Did you ever try to see things from JV's POV ?

He is 1000% right with his opinion about the usual suspects of internetplatforms.
If JV does A -> wahwahwah
If JV does B -> wahwahwah
If JV does C -> wahwahwah
*
*
*
goes till Z

I guess if JV didn't do that blog entry, usual suspects would scream for an apologize to Tondo and point fingers @JV.
If they didn't already do it, and then start complaining about JV's apologize afterwards.

Why do you think I have "targeted" this one man? Why do you assume I dislike him so much?

I'd love to see things from his perspective. Is he ever willing to reveal his perspective?

 

[BotanyBay]

I found the most interesting part of JV's blog is that even if Slipstream could make Tondo ride clean, JV thought Xavier wouldn't be able to compete at the required level (without PEDs). This is obviously different to the way things were for Millar, DZ and Contador (there was faith in their ability to perform at a high level even without PEDs).

And again, JV has (probably unintentionally) said something that (again) makes people go "hmmm, what on Earth did he mean this time?"

I saw the same thing as well. Not because I was searching for such a result, but because a meteorite came screaming out of the sky and landed at my feet (again).

I think JV was attempting to use psychology to manipulate opinion about himself, but ended up revealing more about himself. And it makes me very frustrated that more of you folks can't see it.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

No, I think JV is at least interested in clean cycling and is at least communicating "with us". Not just to apologize or whine.
I honour that. Could be worse.

Did you ever try to see things from JV's POV ?

He is 1000% right with his opinion about the usual suspects of internetplatforms.
If JV does A -> wahwahwah
If JV does B -> wahwahwah
If JV does C -> wahwahwah
*
*
*
goes till Z

I guess if JV didn't do that blog entry, usual suspects would scream for an apologize to Tondo and point fingers @JV.
If they didn't already do it, and then start complaining about JV's apologize afterwards.

No, I think this is wrong. And I don't feel anyone would "scream" about anything.

If JV had simply relayed his own error in judging Tondo, I think it would have been well received and he would have done himself a service by being open and clear in expressing what he feels about the situation. I applaud him for that portion of the story.

But he wrote it in a way that ties this "judgment" back to message forums, as if it would be a parable for us to also learn from and it is a platform for him to express how "hurt" he'd been by posters here. This is where he fails.

- people here are hardened critics
- people here are not known to have trust built by words but actions
- people here ask serious and deliberated questions (usually) that are fair and to the point.

That this forum does not accept JV's glossy statements on their face means he has to either step up his effort to address concerns brought up here, as they are exemplary of true cycling fanatics, OR he has to avoid this place altogether. Nothing he says short of everything will suffice and it is simply a poor decision to undertake engaging with this group if what he offers falls short of this. Not many here are going to take half-answers, half-truths, selective versions and hit-and-run partial answers. That there are OTHER reasons (legal proceedings, investigations, etc) ongoing that prohibit him from addressing things in a full and complete format, he is best advised to simply NOT POST.

People think he is thoughtful and smart, but what I see is someone who is petty and panders to those who follow with blind-faith. He gets points for his details on Tondo though those are quickly deducted by his lame comments about being hurt and what people in message forums do and say.

 

[BotanyBay]

No, I think this is wrong. And I don't feel anyone would "scream" about anything.

If JV had simply relayed his own error in judging Tondo, I think it would have been well received and he would have done himself a service by being open and clear in expressing what he feels about the situation. I applaud him for that portion of the story.

But he wrote it in a way that ties this "judgment" back to message forums, as if it would be a parable for us to also learn from and it is a platform for him to express how "hurt" he'd been by posters here. This is where he fails.

- people here are hardened critics
- people here are not known to have trust built by words but actions
- people here ask serious and deliberated questions (usually) that are fair and to the point.

That this forum does not accept JV's glossy statements on their face means he has to either step up his effort to address concerns brought up here, as they are exemplary of true cycling fanatics, OR he has to avoid this place altogether. Nothing he says short of everything will suffice and it is simply a poor decision to undertake engaging with this group if what he offers falls short of this. Not many here are going to take half-answers, half-truths, selective versions and hit-and-run partial answers. That there are OTHER reasons (legal proceedings, investigations, etc) ongoing that prohibit him from addressing things in a full and complete format, he is best advised to simply NOT POST.

People think he is thoughtful and smart, but what I see is someone who is petty and panders to those who follow with blind-faith. He gets points for his details on Tondo though those are quickly deducted by his lame comments about being hurt and what people in message forums do and say.

He just spent 6 years convincing us that he personally believes that teams can win "clean". And in one poorly-thought-out moment completely erases that by admitting that he doesn't even remotely possess such a belief. He think's he's Jesus sitting around a tree telling a parable, but failed to see that he just greatly contradicted a key component of his "schtick".

Yet he runs a winning Pro Tour team.

 

[Neworld]

That this forum does not accept JV's glossy statements.... he is best advised to simply NOT POST.

Does JV use an alias, and post, on this Forum?

NW

 

[Barrus]

JV went on a worldwide public media venue and went "WaWaWa!, I'm so misunderstood! Those meanie message board guys are hurting my feelings!"

OK, so I get it, you're not interested in solving anything. You just want to cuddle his hurt feelings.

Score one for JV. He's again thrown a tantrum and won the sympathies of his intended target. You.

The funny thing is that you seem to misinterpret what he is stating. He is expressly not saying this. He talks about the manner in which we conduct ourselves on this forum and in what way we talk about cyclists and that he saw himself as better than that, as he himself was being obective and just, only to find out that he acts in the same manner and with the same presumptions. In this manner saying almost the exact opposite of what you are reading into it

He made me realize: Before I rant on in self pity of how I’ve been unfairly judged at times or other athletes have been unfairly judged, perhaps I should consider the objectivity of my own judgments.

@ neworld, he posts under his own name

 

[Kodiak]

He makes valid point in his blog as to his own personal feelings. What I don't get is the number of priest's we have running around here wanting a confession out of anyone who is in cycling in order to get respect on a message forum.

I could care less what he has or hasn't done as a rider. Only that he do everything in his power to keep the same from happening today. if he does and gets results then that's all that matters. Someone has to set an example for others to follow or nothing changes. Holding your breath that there will be a mass confession from every doper in the peleton isn't going to work. Support those that you believe and more will follow.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Does JV use an alias, and post, on this Forum?

NW

I am not sure I understand your question. JV does post here and the username he uses is generally attributed to the person, at minimum, as claimed by that person.

 

[BotanyBay]

The funny thing is that you seem to misinterpret what he is stating. He is expressly not saying this. He talks about the manner in which we conduct ourselves on this forum and in what way we talk about cyclists and that he saw himself as better than that, as he himself was being obective and just, only to find out that he acts in the same manner and with the same presumptions. In this manner saying almost the exact opposite of what you are reading into it



@ neworld, he posts under his own name

He was feeling down on himself and then used the parable of how he misjudged this specific rider not as a means of correcting his own behavior, but as a cheap shot at correcting OUR behavior. To make us feel bad about judging him. He never needed to mention us to make the story a useful one.

If you're a mere mortal, never play the Jesus card.

"Hi everyone, I'm feeling really down lately. It's not easy being the son of God when there are so many that think you're a fraud. Which reminds me, have you ever heard the one about the Good Samaritan?"

 

[Colm.Murphy]

He makes valid point in his blog as to his own personal feelings. What I don't get is the number of priest's we have running around here wanting a confession out of anyone who is in cycling in order to get respect on a message forum.

I could care less what he has or hasn't done as a rider. Only that he do everything in his power to keep the same from happening today. if he does and gets results then that's all that matters. Someone has to set an example for others to follow or nothing changes. Holding your breath that there will be a mass confession from every doper in the peleton isn't going to work. Support those that you believe and more will follow.

No. This is not priests begging for confessions.

This is a Pro Tour manager selectively tossing scraps to the hungry dogs, whose barks hurt him when it gets too loud.

The concern is that he has several things going on, Lowe/White, Millar's blood in 09, internal policies that don't seem to jive with public perception among others, that weigh on the minds of those that he simply wishes would shut their eyes and trust him.

Sorry, thats how it is. He drops by and expects people to go all a-flutter when he fails to really address current issues. When he does that it dredges up all the other things he evades (some he may have a good reason to avoid), which provokes more inspection of his words and partial-answers.

If that hurts his feelings, he needs to be out of the public image business.

 

[BotanyBay]

He makes valid point in his blog as to his own personal feelings. What I don't get is the number of priest's we have running around here wanting a confession out of anyone who is in cycling in order to get respect on a message forum.

I could care less what he has or hasn't done as a rider. Only that he do everything in his power to keep the same from happening today. if he does and gets results then that's all that matters. Someone has to set an example for others to follow or nothing changes. Holding your breath that there will be a mass confession from every doper in the peleton isn't going to work. Support those that you believe and more will follow.

I don't seek confessional material from those who don't go around purporting themselves to be what JV purports himself to be. JV seeks trust, but isn't willing to reveal key details that earn it.

And on such a big world stage, I'm surprised that my thoughts contribute to what keeps JV awake at night. Perhaps he is thinking these same thoughts himself, and it really has nothing to do with this place (or any other message board).

 

[Siriuscat]

I think many of us should sit back and say nowt because the fact the JV does come on here is far more than any of the rest of them would ever do and to be honest I respect him for the fact that he doesn't just say f**k you lot when the aggressive stuff starts.

That blog is a rather bold and honest statement and it maybe reflects the attitude that most of us have. We instantly join the dots, perfomance beyond expectations....doped, connections with Joe Bloggs....doped, trains in Gerona.....doped, Spanish.....Doped, connections with Hog/Pharmstrong......doped. Maybe we should actually think first, what if Berto is clean?

I've read about integrity in this thread, who has total integrity?? We are all forum characters good and bad, who can make an accurate assumption about anyone's integrity.

JV is just as human as we are but in a hugely different position in cycling than any of us, I say get of his back before we lose the few contributions he makes, they are generally very worthwhile.

 

[Elagabalus]

JV, forgive them...they know not what they do....