Proposal to JV --

[Benotti69]

No. This is not priests begging for confessions.

This is a Pro Tour manager selectively tossing scraps to the hungry dogs, whose barks hurt him when it gets too loud.

The concern is that he has several things going on, Lowe/White, Millar's blood in 09, internal policies that don't seem to jive with public perception among others, that weigh on the minds of those that he simply wishes would shut their eyes and trust him.

Sorry, thats how it is. He drops by and expects people to go all a-flutter when he fails to really address current issues. When he does that it dredges up all the other things he evades (some he may have a good reason to avoid), which provokes more inspection of his words and partial-answers.

If that hurts his feelings, he needs to be out of the public image business.

i think Colm you mean Wiggins.


I think JV has taken a pot shot at forums, as places like the clinic get too close to the bone to often for the sports liking.

i am not convinced by JV.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Maybe we should actually think first, what if Berto is clean?

I've read about integrity in this thread, who has total integrity?? We are all forum characters good and bad, who can make an accurate assumption about anyone's integrity.

JV is just as human as we are but in a hugely different position in cycling than any of us, I say get of his back before we lose the few contributions he makes, they are generally very worthwhile.

You lost me with the berto remark. If it is not abundantly clear to you, he dopes. This is not some state secret and he is not an pedaling idiot savant. He doped to win just about every race he's ever won since he was 18. If that crashes your world, sorry pal.

As to JV, I guess we disagree on what we consider very worthwhile contributions.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

i think Colm you mean Wiggins.


I think JV has taken a pot shot at forums, as places like the clinic get too close to the bone to often for the sports liking.

i am not convinced by JV.

Yes, sorry, that is a mistake. Wiggins.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I don't seek confessional material from those who don't go around purporting themselves to be what JV purports himself to be. JV seeks trust, but isn't willing to reveal key details that earn it.

I know what your dilemma is:

BB thinking:
"I am now stuck in my position against JV and have to keep it 100%, because other handlings would be too suspicious"
"If I wouldn't do that, people could think I was just focused on Lance and that I don't really care about JV and Garmin, because I never did."
"Actually I just want him to throw Lance under the bus and hate him, and because he doesn't do that - I don't like him, just because of that. He is Omerta and always wrong because he doesn't do it."

"I am really stuck in this position. Actually I think JV is a good guy. I just hate him because he doesn't hang Lance. I hope nobody notices it"

Thanks for beeing so honest, BoBa !

 

[BroDeal]

Id be willing to bet that all three of those are information he will not divulge at the moment due to the current federal enquiry.

I think that people waiting for JV to tell the truth during and/or after the federal investigation will be sorely disappointed. We have two data points. One is the SCA arbitration where JV used an artful affidavit to distance himself as far away as possible from the case. The second is FLandis' interview where Landis says that JV told him to keep quiet about others. Those are not the actions of a man who will stand before the bar of justice and tell the whole truth.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Lol at botany bay etc demanding JV do this and that to earn his/her respect, or whatever he/she is demanding. If I was him I would tell you to....never mind I don't want to get banned.

Just like Buckwheat's meltdown this is another example of how easy it is to sit on a forum and take potshots. We all seem so pious and are so sure what we would do in the same positions. JV will change nothing by exposing all, and it would surely usher him out of the sport. He has to change it within the parameters the situation provides, and that doesn't include the bull in the china closet approach of Mr. Bay, buckwheat, this colm guy whatever that name means. This forum is a minor player. He should just ignore it and do what he has to do.

 

[BotanyBay]

I think that people waiting for JV to tell the truth during and/or after the federal investigation will be sorely disappointed. We have two data points. One is the SCA arbitration where JV used an artful affidavit to distance himself as far away as possible from the case. The second is FLandis' interview where Landis says that JV told him to keep quiet about others. Those are not the actions of a man who will stand before the bar of justice and tell the whole truth.

JV can do whatever he likes. I do not expect any action from him. But he still seems very concerned about what people here (and elsewhere) think about him. I'm 100% willing to change my opinion, provided he is willing to step-up alongside his peers and account for some things.

Gosh guys, I'd be HAPPY to support him. I WANT to support him. But he's made his stand (a completely reversible stand, BTW), and that's where the issue lies.

I'm not out in the media bringing this issue to a world-wide stage.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I think that people waiting for JV to tell the truth during and/or after the federal investigation will be sorely disappointed. We have two data points. One is the SCA arbitration where JV used an artful affidavit to distance himself as far away as possible from the case. The second is FLandis' interview where Landis says that JV told him to keep quiet about others. Those are not the actions of a man who will stand before the bar of justice and tell the whole truth.

Accepting that this place is nothing close to a bar of justice, I feel JV would be making a fatal error in not cooperating fully with the US Feds.

I agree that information desired by people here is probably not going to appear here, and that it is directly related to the US Feds investigating.

All of this is the reason why it is a poor choice he's made in posting here.

Just DON'T do it.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

He should just ignore it and do what he has to do.

Yes. I agree with this.

And, btw, my name is my name. What's yours "Skandar"?

 

[BotanyBay]

Lol at botany bay etc demanding JV do this and that to earn his/her respect, or whatever he/she is demanding. If I was him I would tell you to....never mind I don't want to get banned.

Just like Buckwheat's meltdown this is another example of how easy it is to sit on a forum and take potshots. We all seem so pious and are so sure what we would do in the same positions. JV will change nothing by exposing all, and it would surely usher him out of the sport. He has to change it within the parameters the situation provides, and that doesn't include the bull in the china closet approach of Mr. Bay, buckwheat, this colm guy whatever that name means. This forum is a minor player. He should just ignore it and do what he has to do.

I wish he WOULD tell me to "whatever". But he's still intent on winning literally everyone over. His ego is so big that he can't handle the fact that a sizable amount of people think he's FOS. I only react to his piety.

Interesting that you know so much about Buckwheat, considering you're so "new" here. He was banned before you came on the scene

 

[BotanyBay]

Accepting that this place is nothing close to a bar of justice, I feel JV would be making a fatal error in not cooperating fully with the US Feds.

I agree that information desired by people here is probably not going to appear here, and that it is directly related to the US Feds investigating.

All of this is the reason why it is a poor choice he's made in posting here.

Just DON'T do it.

Bingo. JV needs to get comfortable with the fact that not everyone is buying his positioning. And he should stop throwing tantrums when he's unhappy with it.

 

[ElChingon]

Johnny V's Dot Connection(s): (the ones I know of, you can add the others)

Mat White -> US Postal (team known issues with doping, aka investigation) -> later fired for using a bad doctor = Johnny V: -1 (didn't connect the dots)

Alberto Contador -> Offered a contract (was on Liberty Seguros with the Kingpin Director caught with a bag of money at Dr. Funetes office, then the minuscule amounts of clem, and platicizers) = Johnny V: 0 (not found guilty, I know technicality but its the outcome)

Xavier Tondo -> Connected Dots and came up solid in his mind, no contract for him! (Yea, was on that Portuguese team, dots a plenty) = Johnny V: 0, (you can't gain points for passing on a rider)

Count Total: -1

I say he should stick to connecting the dots more than less. He knows how it works after all, which teams was he on

 

[Semper Fidelis]

People, please send a PM to me with suggestions on what JV needs to open-up about in order to gain/regain trust.

If Francois is willing to act as an in-between, I'll be happy to compile the basic list of questions that this side of the fence wants Mr Vaughters to be willing to answer.

Thank you.

I did not send you a PM but I am wondering. Why JV(aka - honey bee sting) connected the dots with Tondo and not with DZ, TommyD’sCaffe, VV-aka Yard Stick, Wigan’s, Miller Lite,,,, etc……. Clearly there were some dots to connect?

 

[Siriuscat]

You lost me with the berto remark. If it is not abundantly clear to you, he dopes. This is not some state secret and he is not an pedaling idiot savant. He doped to win just about every race he's ever won since he was 18. If that crashes your world, sorry pal.

As to JV, I guess we disagree on what we consider very worthwhile contributions.

Sorry Mate, you misunderstand my point... What if?? simple as that. I KNOW he's as guilty of doping as the rest but simply what if??

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I think many of us should sit back and say nowt because the fact the JV does come on here is far more than any of the rest of them would ever do and to be honest I respect him for the fact that he doesn't just say f**k you lot when the aggressive stuff starts.

That blog is a rather bold and honest statement and it maybe reflects the attitude that most of us have. We instantly join the dots, perfomance beyond expectations....doped, connections with Joe Bloggs....doped, trains in Gerona.....doped, Spanish.....Doped, connections with Hog/Pharmstrong......doped. Maybe we should actually think first, what if Berto is clean?
I've read about integrity in this thread, who has total integrity?? We are all forum characters good and bad, who can make an accurate assumption about anyone's integrity.

JV is just as human as we are but in a hugely different position in cycling than any of us, I say get of his back before we lose the few contributions he makes, they are generally very worthwhile.

Human yes. But JV left it open for this type of talk.

BTW ....to the bolded......WTH??? FFS please do not repeat that again. It makes my pistols go BANG BANG.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I did not send you a PM but I am wondering. Why JV(aka - honey bee sting) connected the dots with Tondo and not with DZ, TommyD’sCaffe, VV-aka Yard Stick, Wigan’s, Miller Lite,,,, etc……. Clearly there were some dots to connect?

Nevermind all them how could he not connect the dots for Clentador? You know the maybe in Puerto maybe not, came on pretty strong when he hooked up with Bruyneel, climbed with Rasmussen Clentador? That JV tried to sign.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Lol at botany bay etc demanding JV do this and that to earn his/her respect, or whatever he/she is demanding. If I was him I would tell you to....never mind I don't want to get banned.

Just like Buckwheat's meltdown this is another example of how easy it is to sit on a forum and take potshots. We all seem so pious and are so sure what we would do in the same positions. JV will change nothing by exposing all, and it would surely usher him out of the sport. He has to change it within the parameters the situation provides, and that doesn't include the bull in the china closet approach of Mr. Bay, buckwheat, this colm guy whatever that name means. This forum is a minor player. He should just ignore it and do what he has to do.

Jimmy --- I am going to disagree with you on this. I am not sure if BB was demanding anything. He is just pointing out how JV should not mention anything if he did not want the type of response he received from someone like the "wheat".

 

[Siriuscat]

Human yes. But JV left it open for this type of talk.

BTW ....to the bolded......WTH??? FFS please do not repeat that again. It makes my pistols go BANG BANG.

Post above......simple what if??

Not trolling not wumming.

We spend our time, me too, living in the assumption that they all dope, I'd have assumed Tondo was as dirty as the rest but maybe we're wrong. Maybe he is dirty and this tip off is to steer folk away from his supplier. maybe we should all ask what if sometimes.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Sorry Mate, you misunderstand my point... What if?? simple as that. I KNOW he's as guilty of doping as the rest but simply what if??

I understood.
It is a pointless question. That's why.

What is the sun was ice? Discuss....

Anything else to add?

 

[Granville57]

It might be helpful to remember this about JV:

Jonathan is that person,” he says. “He’s just manic enough!” But, Goldstein warns me, “He has to sometimes pull himself back a little. He can also take things too personally; he wants to be liked. Sometimes in business you can’t be liked. But he’s a very principled person. And he is very caring about the people on his team.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/jonathan-vaughters-from-a-dollar-50000-team-to-vying-for-world-1

I think his sensitivity to criticism is genuine but I also find it amusing that he posts on this forum. I'm glad that he does, don't get me wrong. Clearly we are on his mind because he does, in fact, post here. And it's not like Bob Stapleton is showing up here on a regular basis, so maybe we should cut JV a little bit of slack so that he can post whatever he is comfortable posting--we can interpret the details for ourselves.

As far as the Tondo situation:
It wasn't like he swept in like Batman, nabbed the ne'er-do-wells by the collar and dropped them off at police headquarters. He got an email, and most probably thought "Whoa! I want no part of this, especially since my computer is now a part of the chain of evidence," and forwarded the info.

Good on him. Seriously. But like I said, that doesn't make him Batman. And it doesn't automatically make him Mr. Clean either. Maybe he is. I have no idea and it doesn't affect me personally one way or the other. But Serpico, he is not.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Nevermind all them how could he not connect the dots for Clentador? You know the maybe in Puerto maybe not, came on pretty strong when he hooked up with Bruyneel, climbed with Rasmussen Clentador?

Yeah those were some big BOLD dots that appeared to have been scanned over. The Matt White dots where there to see also. I am going to direct “Honey Bee Sting” over to this web site so he can garner some practice at connecting the dots. http://www.enchantedlearning.com/connectdots/

 

[BroDeal]

Accepting that this place is nothing close to a bar of justice, I feel JV would be making a fatal error in not cooperating fully with the US Feds.

What is the definition of cooperating? Is it cooperating if he admits that he doped while on Postal but has a fuzzy memory about seeing anyone else dope? From past actions that is what we can expect.

JV wants Armstrong to skate. He does not want the past exposed. That would upset the future. It would make attracting sponsors more difficult. It could stop him from redefining the role of the top teams and cashing out. In other words, it could stop him from elbowing his way to a place at the trough in the pig sty.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Post above......simple what if??

Not trolling not wumming.

We spend our time, me too, living in the assumption that they all dope, I'd have assumed Tondo was as dirty as the rest but maybe we're wrong. Maybe he is dirty and this tip off is to steer folk away from his supplier. maybe we should all ask what if sometimes.

Sirius I was not saying you were trolling. Please do not misunderstand. I just wanted to not see that what if again...

 

[Colm.Murphy]

What is the definition of cooperating? Is it cooperating if he admits that he doped while on Postal but has a fuzzy memory about seeing anyone else dope? From past actions that is what we can expect.

JV wants Armstrong to skate. He does not want the past exposed. That would upset the future. It would make attracting sponsors more difficult. It could stop him from redefining the role of the top teams and cashing out. In other words, it could stop him from elbowing his way to a place at the trough in the pig sty.

I disagree about "past actions" being an indicator of what he might be asked and what he would answer.

Going in front of some Fed agents does not give you the option of protecting the "future", and from what goes on during questioning by Feds, they would pretty much run the gamut inquiring as to what he knows and experienced. I sense they'd be very thorough with him. He would not have the luxury of giving partial answers, fuzzy memories, or the like.

Bottom line, is they want to ask questions and get answers, he will have to give it to them. There are not many options in that scenario.

 

[BotanyBay]

I just can't fathom why a guy who is so clearly wanting to be a player in THAT game (the UCI), wants to be adored in THIS game (The Clinic).

I'd tell me to go F myself. Why won't he? Why is he so intent on winning our hearts and minds?