Puerto bags to be handed over

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

I think we all agree with what you say (because its true!). I'd be massively surprised if none of those bags matched Bertie. In my view it was swept under the carpet back in 2006.

Yes they swept Berto's (only an up and coming cyclist at that point) bags under the carpet but not those of the bigger cycling stars. I wonder why they were so intent on helping just him and not the others.

 

[Tienus]

Ángel Castresana would also be a candidate.
He was riding for Hanegraaf in 2006.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

I think we all agree with what you say (because its true!). I'd be massively surprised if none of those bags matched Bertie. In my view it was swept under the carpet back in 2006.

Yes they swept Berto's (only an up and coming cyclist at that point) bags under the carpet but not those of the bigger cycling stars. I wonder why they were so intent on helping just him and not the others.

There's suspicion about ALL the youngsters. AC, Luisle, Barredo, Navarro, Hernández, even Davis. It's quite curious that all of them were spared, even when the documents contain strong evidence against some of them (notably Davis). It's been speculated that someone wanted to at least save the new crop of Spanish talent so that they could carry the torch.

Ángel Castresana would also be a candidate.
He was riding for Hanegraaf in 2006.

It could also have been Aiman Cahyadi. He was 12 at the time.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Ángel Castresana would also be a candidate.
He was riding for Hanegraaf in 2006.

Indeed. And quit cycling the same year (if Wikipedia serves me right).

 

[hrotha]

Stop making fools of yourselves and read a little on the subject:

Well yes of course the abbrevation AC on Liberty Seguros training documents and race schedules refers to Berto.
AC is also on the fax Fuentes sent Saiz with the doping prescription for the 2005 TDF riders. It can be no one but Berto, there was no other AC on the Liberty TDF team. But even on that fax there was no definite proof Berto doped/was a client of Fuentes ("nada o igual a JJ"). I don't think there ever was a blood bag for him in Fuentes' fridge but we will see.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I didn't mean Angel Castresana being AC.
Castresana is simply a plausible candidate to have been a Fuentes client (which is what we were speculating about on the previous page).
Read up a little on Hanegraaf.

Liberty's AC is Alberto obviously.
And to my knowledge Laflo is right that his initials weren't explicitly tied to PEDs.

 

[sniper]

In fact, according to the Sueddeutsche, Alberto's name was written in full in one of the documents, and there even was a link to Alberto's personal website(???) (which only makes sense if they're talking about some kind of excel sheet here?). I'm not sure if I'm reading that right though.
AC's program was "nothing, or the same as JJ [Joerg Jaksche]".

Contadors Name steht zum einen auf dem Dokument Nummer 31: Dort ist hinter dem Kürzel A.C. (das übrigens auch Contadors Internetseite eröffnet) der Name des früheren Liberty-Fahrers zusätzlich handschriftlich vermerkt. Bei der Liste handelt es sich um einem Liberty-Medikationsplan fürs Rennjahr 2005, und neben Contadors Name steht: "Nada o igual a J.J." - nichts oder wie bei J.J. Hinter J.J. verbirgt sich, wie der Ansbacher inzwischen zugegeben hat, Jörg Jaksche.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/doping-verdacht-ac-wie-alberto-contador-1.734840

 

[hrotha]

I have no idea what Sueddeutsche is getting at. This is the document:

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

I have no idea what Sueddeutsche is getting at. This is the document:

"Nothing, or the same as JJ"

I assume JJ was on very little then, given AC (whoever he is) was to have nothing or the same as JJ.

Maybe this is like Basso - AC didn't dope, but possibly was intending to.

 

[Benotti69]

Wonder if some of those going to play in China are former Puerto clients..........

 

[Mr.38%]

Re:

I have no idea what Sueddeutsche is getting at. This is the document:

Sueddeutsche did not say it "linked to" Contador's personal homepage, just that it was displayed very prominent there ("eröffnen" == to open, inaugurate and also disclose in a different meaning).

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Thijs Zonneveld on twitter is breaking that 35 Puerto bags have been identified by the Lausanne lab.
It allegedly concerns 23 cyclists and 12 t&f athletes.
So again no soccer or tennis players.

Names to be made public soon. But I'm not sure if it concerns 'new' names.

edit: Thijs expects only a handful of new names.

J A Flecha
Canc
F Schleck
any others?

I'm doubtful that Allan Davis will show up, he's been doing a lot of work in San Sebastián with developing junior and U23 riders and is starting to get results. I'd be surprised if it was all placed in jeopardy.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

Apologies I know your cycling knowledge only goes back as far as 2012 :lol:

The International Cycling Union (UCI) have said riders suspected of doping will be named next week.

The announcement comes just 24 hours after Spain's Anton Colom received a provisional suspension for testing positive for the banned blood booster EPO (erythropoietin).

With less than a month till the Tour de France prologue in Monte Carlo, Pat McQuaid, the UCI president, has has said he will act quickly with cycling's drug cheats.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/5496206/Suspected-dope-cheating-cyclists-will-be-named-says-UCI-president-Pat-McQuaid.html

2009? So:
3 years after Puerto ...
A small no name rider

As I said Hog - you're trolling (again).

How is he trolling? He made a statement and backed it up.

He's trolling because he is arguing about a point that is well accepted - 'AC' is Bertie. Everyone knows it, never ever has it been said AC was Antom Colom. Why? Because 'AC' was noted in the Liberty documents - did Colom ride for them? Errr - no. Case proved and closed. Hog is not some amateur follower - he knows (or at least purports to) a lot. To come up with Colom is just baloney and therefore trolling or baiting. He should accept he is wrong and move on.[/quote]

Actually during and right after Puerto hit proverbial fan, the name Antonio Colom was floated as being the person behind the initials AC. Nothing new there, it just seemed more likely that iOS one of Sainz's riders in which case only Contador fitted the initials. Also Colom is not a no-name rider and was always a very domestique with the ability to stick with the better climbers for a long time.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

At present though there can't be much doubt that AC is Alberto.
http://www.iol.co.za/sport/cycling/contador-a-witness-in-operation-puerto-case-1459130

"nothing or same as Jaksche", hm...i doubt Ufe was talking about Funfkornbrot and Gerolsteiner.

... It's quite curious that all of them were spared, even when the documents contain strong evidence against some of them (notably Davis). It's been speculated that someone wanted to at least save the new crop of Spanish talent so that they could carry the torch.

This sounds plausible.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

At present though there can't be much doubt that AC is Alberto.
http://www.iol.co.za/sport/cycling/contador-a-witness-in-operation-puerto-case-1459130

"nothing or same as Jaksche", hm...i doubt Ufe was talking about Funfkornbrot and Gerolsteiner.

He was a witness (actually he wasn't one in the end) because he was on Liberty Seguros at the time and Saiz was also on trial. He was supposed to testify for/against Saiz.

How is "nothing or the same as Jaksche" proof of doping? Might as well have been nothing.

 

[sniper]

fair points
(apart from that i din't say antyhing about proof).

I do wonder: if Contador wasn't getting anything from Fuentes, whom was he getting from?
I doubt he was clean in that period (at least the environment in which he became a pro doesn't lend many arguments for believing he was clean).
Anybody know at what time Contador began working with Pepe Marti?

 

[hrotha]

Having your neo pros and/or young riders go clean(ish) to accurately assess their potential is a distinct possibility. That's probably what they did in their u23 feeder team (at the time, obviously, signing anyone from a non-vetted amateur team was asking for trouble and only small pro teams did it). Did they apply the same policy to their pro team? Who knows. Maybe they did, and that document belongs to a time when Contador was considered to be in that stage between "clean(ish) young talent" and "full medical pro" (something along the lines of "He might be ready to get started on the Jaksche program [which I believe was very light except for his few targeted goals of the season], but no pressure yet")

 

[Red Rick]

So I guess nothing is gonna come from this or are we gonna have to wait 6 months for them to tell us out loud that 'stuff is happening' or something

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

So I guess nothing is gonna come from this or are we gonna have to wait 6 months for them to tell us out loud that 'stuff is happening' or something

LOL. It reminds me of the ents in the Two Towers from LOTR. They take ages to actually begin talking about the issue, then they take more time to think about whether or not to do anything about the issue, then another few years to prepare....by the time anything gets started, Contador or Basso or Cancellara or Dekker will have become DS or race organizer at a GT.

 

[glassmoon]

Re: Re:

So I guess nothing is gonna come from this or are we gonna have to wait 6 months for them to tell us out loud that 'stuff is happening' or something

LOL. It reminds me of the ents in the Two Towers from LOTR. They take ages to actually begin talking about the issue, then they take more time to think about whether or not to do anything about the issue, then another few years to prepare....by the time anything gets started, Contador or Basso or Cancellara or Dekker will have become DS or race organizer at a GT.

isn't THAT the point? isn't THAT the design?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Having your neo pros and/or young riders go clean(ish) to accurately assess their potential is a distinct possibility. That's probably what they did in their u23 feeder team (at the time, obviously, signing anyone from a non-vetted amateur team was asking for trouble and only small pro teams did it). Did they apply the same policy to their pro team? Who knows. Maybe they did, and that document belongs to a time when Contador was considered to be in that stage between "clean(ish) young talent" and "full medical pro" (something along the lines of "He might be ready to get started on the Jaksche program [which I believe was very light except for his few targeted goals of the season], but no pressure yet")

I think you are right about that and I also remember some talk about Saiz not wanting to put his young riders on a big program.
Although, that was 2005, wasn't there a BB allegedly belonging to Luisle? Who knows what they'll find for Berto

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

I think you are right about that and I also remember some talk about Saiz not wanting to put his young riders on a big program.
Although, that was 2005, wasn't there a BB allegedly belonging to Luisle? Who knows what they'll find for Berto

I vaguely remember reading something by, I think, Carlos Arribas, which claimed that Saiz was "devastated" when he learned that Luisle had blood bags in there or was a client of Fuentes or whatever. But Arribas is a true propagandist: he'll take a kernel of truth and spin it in the most outrageous and ridiculous sympathetic ways.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Having your neo pros and/or young riders go clean(ish) to accurately assess their potential is a distinct possibility. That's probably what they did in their u23 feeder team (at the time, obviously, signing anyone from a non-vetted amateur team was asking for trouble and only small pro teams did it). Did they apply the same policy to their pro team? Who knows. Maybe they did, and that document belongs to a time when Contador was considered to be in that stage between "clean(ish) young talent" and "full medical pro" (something along the lines of "He might be ready to get started on the Jaksche program [which I believe was very light except for his few targeted goals of the season], but no pressure yet")

I think you are right about that and I also remember some talk about Saiz not wanting to put his young riders on a big program.
Although, that was 2005, wasn't there a BB allegedly belonging to Luisle? Who knows what they'll find for Berto

Saiz went under oath and said Alberto never used transfusions in that period. I sense that he was doping with lower key drugs at that time.

 

[Beech Mtn]

maybe he only used heating pads

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Saiz went under oath and said Alberto never used transfusions in that period. I sense that he was doping with lower key drugs at that time.

I don't think anything of what Saiz said was true, so there.