Pulling a Wiggins

[happychappy]

I like Peter Sagan, he makes me laugh. I like the way he wins bicycle races without breaking a sweat or even breathing hard.

 

[Netserk]

I like Peter Sagan, he makes me laugh. I like the way he wins bicycle races without breaking a sweat or even breathing hard.

What exactly does he have to do with the topic of this thread?

 

[SundayRider]

The age of Evans and Sastre was why I made reference to "not many" GT winners older than Wiggo.

Their performances since, plus Basso's (32 when he won the Giro in 2010) suggest that there's not much likelihood of additional GTs once you've won one in your 30s.

Maybe that was actually your point.

Wiggo wasn't going so badly in the Giro this year, at least uphill and on the flat. It's only since then that he's obviously given up on GTs; he was maybe a kg or two heavier for the Giro than last year's Tour, but his major weight gain - the most overt sign of having given up on GTS - has been since the Giro.

I find this weight gain really weird...was he eating a super low calorie diet before? If so, then how did he train at the required intensity? Or is he training totally differently now or is he eating loads of junk food now? Or something else

 

[The Hitch]

The mountains in the Tour are perfectly suited to a guy like Wiggins who can grind it out with the best of them, just as they were for Cadel. We've seen what happens when things get steep in the Vuelta and the Giro (although in the Giro the descending didn't help).

The mountains are no more or less steep than they are in any other tour.

Nibali is widely regarded now as the 2nd best stage racer in the world. At the time he had been beaten by robo Contador in the Giro and had the hiccup in the Vuelta as everyone who did the giro did (incl rodriguez), so people began to think he wasnt going to reach his potential, but looking at his performances that year - 2nd LBL, 3rd MSR, winner Tirreno, and his results since its clear that portrayal of Nibali as a meh gt contneder needs to be heavily revised.

Nibali is no joke. The fact that he lost 6 minutes to Wiggins, and 3 to Froome (4 if you include Froome's puncture) shows just how many lightyears ahead of everyone Sky were.

Which of all these alleged superstars that were missing would have beaten Nibali? Contador, maybe. Schleck, hell no. Hejsedal? Hell no. Rodriguez, hell no. Basso, Scarponi, Mosquera?? Who else? No one.

One rider was missing who maybe could have caused some problems.

 

[The Hitch]

who else was really on mountain form in that tour, bar nibali? Andy and Berti were out, Menchov was..well, Menchov. Frank pinged and Evans was dogging it (not unlike Wiggsy this year, actually!). Quintana.
.

You forgot Fausto Coppi, Bernard Hinault and Marco Pantani. Oh and Warren Barguil.

They weren't there either.

 

[Von Mises]

Nibali is no joke. The fact that he lost 6 minutes to Wiggins, and 3 to Froome (4 if you include Froome's puncture) shows just how many lightyears ahead of everyone Sky were.

Nearly 6 minutes came from time trials, wasnt it?

 

[Netserk]

Nearly 6 minutes came from time trials, wasnt it?

Nibali is no Schleck. He got 8th in the first ITT. Most other GC contenders would lose more.

Says something about Wiggo.

 

[The Hitch]

I doubt we'll ever see such a 'team' win again, certainly not for several years - especially now other teams feel they finally have a few ideas to deal with the Train.

How on earth can you say with a straight face that it took teams till 2013 to come up with ideas on how to "deal with The train".

Sorry if its like telling you that Santa aint real but "The train" was not invented by Dave Bailsford and there is no tactical inginuity to it whatsoever. Its just putting your riders on the front. Been done for decades.

 

[Hugh Januss]

How on earth can you say with a straight face that it took teams till 2013 to come up with ideas on how to "deal with The train".

Sorry if its like telling you that Santa aint real but "The train" was not invented by Dave Bailsford and there is no tactical inginuity to it whatsoever. Its just putting your riders on the front. Been done for decades.

One has to look no further than the Vuelta for evidence that the other teams have found the way to "deal with the Sky train" and it is also clear that the discussion of how they are dealing belongs squarely in the clinic.
The "Sky train" runs on the same sort of fuel that the "Postal train" required.

 

[Von Mises]

Nibali is no Schleck. He got 8th in the first ITT. Most other GC contenders would lose more.

Says something about Wiggo.

True, but they were talking about climbs and gradients of Tour as these made a difference. Overall it was TT heavy Tour with less climbing. And I am not talking here only about number of climbs but also how they were climbed. For me Nibali did not seem so sharp than this year.

 

[vedrafjord]

I doubt we'll ever see such a 'team' win again, certainly not for several years - especially now other teams feel they finally have a few ideas to deal with the Train.

I don't think it's about having ideas to deal with the train, it's brute force and numbers. Nobody got cleverer this year (Movistar especially the opposite of clever in the Tour), Sky's train just got weaker.

Last year they had all their strongest riders bar Uran and Henao in the Tour squad, including a very in form Wiggins.

This year they tried to split between Giro and Tour, Rogers left, and two of their 3 GT leaders had nightmares in their chosen GTs.

You might be right about not seeing its likes for several years to come, but that might be because Froome doesn't need the train like Wiggins did, as he's capable of gaining big chunks of time in the mountains and doesn't have to ride defensively to the same extent.

 

[vedrafjord]

I can see him doing well back on the track and possibly in the classics if he keeps the weight on. Not sure if he fancies it though. If he's scared descending surely the thought of a crash in Arenberg causes him to mess his bib shorts?

The track? Definitely. The classics? This is a man who said only this year "I always struggle with the cold and when it rains I think: 'I'm going to get cold now, and that'll be the end of me'".

Is weight a big factor for that actually? Maybe his recent weight gain will give him a nice insulating layer of blubber for next year's classics. It is odd though, an English person who lives and trains in Chorley in the winter (which is cold and wet even in English terms) saying he struggles with the cold?

 

[mewmewmew13]

Yup. Horner is a good bet. Even if he decided to continue full bore, it would take a very special GT route to allow him to win again. A lot of risk for little reward.

The funny thing about the Wiggins situation is that last year he berated the public for being bone idle wnkers who never worked hard for anything in their lives. Now he is telling people that it is too much work to prepare for a grand tour.

spot on Bro

'the skeletons' re "the sceptics" comment ...reminds me of this ...
http://youtu.be/h03QBNVwX8Q

 

[hrotha]

Totally called it:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=957783&postcount=3775

 

[martinvickers]

How on earth can you say with a straight face that it took teams till 2013 to come up with ideas on how to "deal with The train".

Sorry if its like telling you that Santa aint real but "The train" was not invented by Dave Bailsford and there is no tactical inginuity to it whatsoever. Its just putting your riders on the front. Been done for decades.

Hitch, mend your tone, and I'll give you an answer. I've just about reached a limit on the tantrams I feel like tolerating from you. If you want a debate, I'm up for it, but i'm not going to waste my time with hissy fits.

 

[martinvickers]

I don't think it's about having ideas to deal with the train, it's brute force and numbers. Nobody got cleverer this year (Movistar especially the opposite of clever in the Tour), Sky's train just got weaker.

Last year they had all their strongest riders bar Uran and Henao in the Tour squad, including a very in form Wiggins.

This year they tried to split between Giro and Tour, Rogers left, and two of their 3 GT leaders had nightmares in their chosen GTs.

You might be right about not seeing its likes for several years to come, but that might be because Froome doesn't need the train like Wiggins did, as he's capable of gaining big chunks of time in the mountains and doesn't have to ride defensively to the same extent.

1. I wrote the Train, not the train. In other words, specifically dealing with Sky, not the tactic. No-one was suggesting it's new. And yes, Sky overspread themselves -still won the tour at a canter and got #2 in the Giro. For an overspread team, that's alarming strength.

2. The Train worked almost perfectly all spring, and specifically up to Ax 3 domaines. It had remained stubbornly resistant to Movistar in that stage, and indeed all 'final ascent' attacks all spring - They near had berti in tears in the Dauphine. And waiting them out seemed no better, as l'Ospidale showed.

3. Movistar and Garmin both decided 'f*** this for a game of soldiors' on the Col de Peyresourde stage - they blew the Train apart by trying something a bit different, a bit chaotic. I f***ing cheared my a*** off.

It was great when Dan won, but for the race, it was an awful pity there was a bit of a Movistar failure of nerve on the final ascents when they had him isolated. Nonetheless, it was one of the best days racing in years. And I'm pretty sure Wiggins wouldn't, even in 2012, have survived it.

4. Unfortunately The Train recovered for Ventoux, being a perfect SkyExpress stage - one huge climb, and effectively the race ended there for first.

5.I agree Froome needs less help on mountain heavy parcours - but i also can't imagine another year in the near future where arguably a whole handful of the best riders in the race are in one team, as in 2012. In 2013 there was froome, far and away, and porte was in GC form till chaos hit...but after that, it was doms rather than superdoms - in 2012 you had a constant final four of Rogers, Porte, Froome, Wiggins all in blistering form- that's brutal, if you're honest. Nibs was always on a hiding to nothing - he did well to hang on as well as he did - only finally coming unhitched at the very end.

 

[Ferminal]

He was sick. He started building his fitness slowly again in august 2012. His first training was going hunting for moose.

As in walking in the forest, carrying a gun and shooting. Just looking at results are often misleading.

He seems to be on the mend as his results this summer indicate.

He was also sick this spring, right? I mean his 2013 P-R result was no different from his 2012 one.

 

[The Hitch]

Menchov may have been a top contender in the 2000's and Quintana may be one now. But the Tour de France Wiggins won was 2012. Not 2007 not 2011, not 2014. All these riders were far lower down on the gt pecking order in 2012, other riders have taken their place. But of course, naming the actual top gt riders of 2012 would make Wiggins look more suspicious, so lets just name ones from totally different years regardless of whether they had the gt abilty in this particular yet or not. In that spirit, we can add the likes of Hinault to the list. He was also a good gt rider once, and Bargul maybe one one day. Neither rode the 2012 Tour. What an easy addition it must have been.

Wiggins was also of course really lucky that Basso did the Giro. Considering this is the guy who once won a gt by 10 minutes, wiggins would have been really screwed if 2012 didnt just happen to be the year Basso decided to do the giro instead and work for Nibali at the tour. Oh madonne how the planets alligned for him.

 

[BroDeal]

Hitch, mend your tone, and I'll give you an answer. I've just about reached a limit on the tantrams I feel like tolerating from you. If you want a debate, I'm up for it, but i'm not going to waste my time with hissy fits.

 

[AcademyCC]

Whilst i dont doubt Wiggins cleanliness, I think the amount of effort it takes to win a grand tour(even on drugs) is monumental. That guy has to spend probably 6 months away from his family and live like a monk.

Its very easy to through out a comment like the OP has, backing it up in practice is a little more difficult.

 

[BroDeal]

Whilst i dont doubt Wiggins cleanliness, I think the amount of effort it takes to win a grand tour(even on drugs) is monumental. That guy has to spend probably 6 months away from his family and live like a monk.

Its very easy to through out a comment like the OP has, backing it up in practice is a little more difficult.

Funny how pretty much everyone else manages to put in the work to get in GT shape year after year, often for ten years. Then again, they are not bone idle w@ankers.

 

[AcademyCC]

Funny how pretty much everyone else manages to put in the work to get in GT shape year after year, often for ten years. Then again, they are not bone idle w@ankers.

I pretty much agree. Alls i can say is i understand the strain that challenging for a GT puts not only on a person but also his family. Its easy for us to condem him from the start but appreciate what goes on behind the scenes.

 

[AcademyCC]

I can only speak from my own situation but if i said to my missuss, im gonna spend 6 months away from you and the kids to chase my dream. she might ............... might say ok. If i then went back and said i want another year, she would tell me to **** right off. Facts of life

 

[AcademyCC]

Everyone dancing about here saying wiggins is a fraud has completely missed the boat. The guy has a ****ing family to look after!!!!!!

 

[Ferminal]

I pretty much agree. Alls i can say is i understand the strain that challenging for a GT puts not only on a person but also his family. Its easy for us to condem him from the start but appreciate what goes on behind the scenes.

Yeh you're right, which is why my armchair psychology tells me he's not the personality type for it. I know for me physically even if I could do it I would struggle with the mental load.