Pulling a Wiggins

[thehog]

Wiggins deserves the criticism for commenting on Landis' mental health but do not give me this paragon of virtue with Landis considering his past behaviour too. He was Lance Armstrong, whistleblower or not.

Encouraging whistleblowing is one thing, yet the financial aspect of it is the only reason Landis has come forward. I don't think he cares in the slightest about the welfare of the sport. He had this idea from Prentice Steffen when Lim told him about it years previously before he came clean. When he had nowhere to go after not getting a ride with Radioshack, he then decides to initiate it.

I consider Kimmage and the Stepanovas as whistleblowers in sport who did it for the right reasons. Landis no, the complete opposite.

In the context of sport, motives are key to judge and discuss.

The rewards were there for Landis when he got busted. He could have come clean then, reduced ban and he could have rode the Tour again. He refused and fought the process in every way possible.

Civil restitution and remedy is the cornerstone of tort law in western democracies. People come forward at great risk (and become unemployable) and are assisted by Governments to correct the misuse of public money.

That has occurred here. In the UK this could not happen, punitive damages are rarely given only loss. However the US government should always restitute whistleblowers, especially in the cases where public money is involved.

I have no idea why anyone would object to such a foundation.

 

[Netserk]

Who cares about motivation. Action is what matters.

And his action is surely worth every penny he gets out of it.

 

[thehog]

The Stepanovas came out so they could seek asylum outside of Russia. They are writing book as we speak with David "Jump on the Bandwagon" Walsh, so they are benefiting just as much as Landis might end up with something. In Landis's case he may very well get very little or nothing at all. If Landis loses he may have to pay court costs for Armstrong. Possible.

That's a BIG risk.

 

[gooner]

The Stepanovas came out so they could seek asylum outside of Russia. They are writing book as we speak with David "Jump on the Bandwagon" Walsh, so they are benefiting just as much as Landis might end up with something. In Landis's case he may very well get very little or nothing at all. If Landis loses he may have to pay court costs for Armstrong. Possible.

That's a BIG risk.

Will we say the same for Kimmage and Rough Ride so?

A book is not the reason why they came forward. The collaboration with Walsh has only come about more recently. They have sacrificed plenty moving to Germany and then the US and been called all sorts back in Russia. They were even fearing for their own safety.

This isn't the case with Landis. He knew the whistleblower incentive was there as he was approached previously. It was his primary motivation.

People can talk about action all they want, I'll see fit as I please to see the motivation behind it and the genuine nature of it.

There is a difference between judging whistleblowing in the sporting context of what Kimmage/Stepanovas did and the way Landis did. I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing that out because of the "action" he took. It's why I have far more respect for the former than the latter and why I wouldn't put him in the same breath as them.

As I said, he was Lance Armstrong with his behaviour.

 

[T_S_A_R]

Re: Re:

the argument about rewarding whistleblowers is a different one that transcends sport and by definition a lot of whislteblowers will be guilty of misdemeanors because they know the story....

If Landis had only cheated on the bike i'd agree but asking fans to contribute to his defence fund on the basis he was clean is a different level of dishonesty.

 

[thehog]

The Stepanovas came out so they could seek asylum outside of Russia. They are writing book as we speak with David "Jump on the Bandwagon" Walsh, so they are benefiting just as much as Landis might end up with something. In Landis's case he may very well get very little or nothing at all. If Landis loses he may have to pay court costs for Armstrong. Possible.

That's a BIG risk.

Will we say the same for Kimmage and Rough Ride so?

A book is not the reason why they came forward. The collaboration with Walsh has only come about more recently. They have sacrificed plenty moving to Germany and then the US and been called all sorts back in Russia. They were even fearing for their own safety.

This isn't the case with Landis. He knew the whistleblower incentive was there as he was approached previously. It was his primary motivation.

People can talk about action all they want, I'll see fit as I please to see the motivation behind it and the genuine nature of it.

There is a difference between judging whistleblowing in the sporting context of what Kimmage/Stepanovas did and the way Landis did. I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing that out because of the "action" he took. It's why I have far more respect for the former than the latter and why I wouldn't put him in the same breath as them.

As I said, he was Lance Armstrong with his behaviour.

You do realize that by coming forward Landis faced jail time up to 20 years imprisonment and later agreed to a deferred prosecution. He can still face imprisonment if he doesn't meet the criteria of his agreement.

As to being called "all sorts of names", Landis has faced a barrage of name calling by Armstrong fans, politicians journalists, etc, various people on forums. He lost his house, his family, friends etc. He has also faced death threats.

I sense for you this is about Walsh. You don't like Landis because Walsh pretend it was he who brought down Armstrong.

 

[hrotha]

Incentivizing whistleblowers who were members of actual criminal gangs that, like, killed people and what not: ok, whatever works
Incentivizing whistleblowers who doped: now that's where I draw the line sir

 

[gooner]

The Stepanovas came out so they could seek asylum outside of Russia. They are writing book as we speak with David "Jump on the Bandwagon" Walsh, so they are benefiting just as much as Landis might end up with something. In Landis's case he may very well get very little or nothing at all. If Landis loses he may have to pay court costs for Armstrong. Possible.

That's a BIG risk.

Will we say the same for Kimmage and Rough Ride so?

A book is not the reason why they came forward. The collaboration with Walsh has only come about more recently. They have sacrificed plenty moving to Germany and then the US and been called all sorts back in Russia. They were even fearing for their own safety.

This isn't the case with Landis. He knew the whistleblower incentive was there as he was approached previously. It was his primary motivation.

People can talk about action all they want, I'll see fit as I please to see the motivation behind it and the genuine nature of it.

There is a difference between judging whistleblowing in the sporting context of what Kimmage/Stepanovas did and the way Landis did. I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing that out because of the "action" he took. It's why I have far more respect for the former than the latter and why I wouldn't put him in the same breath as them.

As I said, he was Lance Armstrong with his behaviour.

You do realize that by coming forward Landis faced jail time up to 20 years imprisonment and later agreed to a deferred prosecution. He can still face imprisonment if he doesn't meet the criteria of his agreement.

As to being called "all sorts of names", Landis has faced a barrage of name calling by Armstrong fans, politicians journalists, etc, various people on forums. He lost his house, his family, friends etc. He has also faced death threats.

I sense for you this is about Walsh. You don't like Landis because Walsh pretend it was he who brought down Armstrong.

What??

 

[Digger]

Re:

Wiggins didn't know the truth, he didn't ride in USPostal - this is my whole point. You either believe he was told Landis was crazy or you don't. It's easy now to see what happened. In 2009 & 2010 Armstrong haden't even begun the SCA Promotions case, letalone the Federal Investigation. Pretty much the whole of cycling in terms of those with a self-interest were either sat on the defence if you were an ex-doper, or attacking Landis if your past was relatively anti-doping. This is what Landis is getting at with Wiggins. He said stuff without any evidence, because he wasn't there.

stop - just stop - you haven't a clue.
Wiggins was told clearly in 2009 about lance by numerous people on Garmin who had first hand knowledge of lance.
So you go on and say lance is a hero of mine, and pantani was a great rider, and lance is innocent, all things wiggins said if you are anti doping?

 

[Digger]

Re:

Everybody was attacking Landis including those riders with first-hand evidence of being there, knowing what Wiggins said was wrong and not doing anything about that - that's my whole point. This is nothing to do with saying what you believe or know, it's saying what you need to say or not to have an easier Tour de France, while riding against Armstrong for the podium. They were all riding that 2010 Tour in Slipstream & Sky and all going for the same podium.

name them - name them

David millar who was brought in by jv about it.
Christian who was about to be exposed...

Who else? you say everyone...

so wiggins isn't anti doping at all he's doing saying what he thinks is easiest - and you think this is credible

 

[Digger]

Wiggins deserves the criticism for commenting on Landis' mental health but do not give me this paragon of virtue with Landis considering his past behaviour too. He was Lance Armstrong, whistleblower or not.

Encouraging whistleblowing is one thing, yet the financial aspect of it is the only reason Landis has come forward. I don't think he cares in the slightest about the welfare of the sport. He had this idea from Prentice Steffen when Lim told him about it years previously before he came clean. When he had nowhere to go after not getting a ride with Radioshack, he then decides to initiate it.

I consider Kimmage and the Stepanovas as whistleblowers in sport who did it for the right reasons. Landis no, the complete opposite.

In the context of sport, motives are key to judge and discuss.

The rewards were there for Landis when he got busted. He could have come clean then, reduced ban and he could have rode the Tour again. He refused and fought the process in every way possible.

Wiggins said he believed lance and doubted landis so was lying himself because he knew the truth at this stage via garmin - he didn't just go after mental health etc
you say he was lance - bullying...nope...bribing nope...lawsuits nope... and on and on

they both doped if that's your point - and won the tour...but if that's all it takes to be like lance then every winner is like lance.

What whistleblowers in cycling did it for the 'right reasons' so? David Millar

As regards your knowledge of the case it's pitiful - he confesses he' knows he becomes a convicted which mean he will probably not receive a penny...all this was made know to him in 2010...and even if he does receive anything it will be next to nothing after three sides get their slice - he is last. All this he knew...but this is what happens when you rely on cyclingnews and cite it as a source.

 

[gooner]

Lets forget about challenging the process with USADA in every way possible, Floyd Fairness Fund, and hacking into French anti-doping. Every doper does that.

Fact of the matter is Landis filed this whistleblower suit straightaway after he came clean and he knew there was potential to exploit this avenue as he was approached to be a part of it some years previously before he was busted. Do you think he only did this for the sake of it. This was carefully thought out on his part.

 

[sniper]

Meanwhile did anybody know Cathy Wiggins father was an employee of british cycling? Now retired.

I'm now even reading about Cookson attending Wiggins weddig but am trying to get thay verified.

https://twitter.com/feria_sport/status/822217234235920384

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re:

Wiggins didn't know the truth, he didn't ride in USPostal - this is my whole point. You either believe he was told Landis was crazy or you don't. It's easy now to see what happened. In 2009 & 2010 Armstrong haden't even begun the SCA Promotions case, letalone the Federal Investigation. Pretty much the whole of cycling in terms of those with a self-interest were either sat on the defence if you were an ex-doper, or attacking Landis if your past was relatively anti-doping. This is what Landis is getting at with Wiggins. He said stuff without any evidence, because he wasn't there.

This is BS. I know for a fact that Wiggins asked ex-Posties on Slipstream about doping and they told him exactly what was going on. Not only riders on Slipstream but JV referenced the doping at Postal many many times.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Wiggins deserves the criticism for commenting on Landis' mental health but do not give me this paragon of virtue with Landis considering his past behaviour too. He was Lance Armstrong, whistleblower or not.

Encouraging whistleblowing is one thing, yet the financial aspect of it is the only reason Landis has come forward. I don't think he cares in the slightest about the welfare of the sport. He had this idea from Prentice Steffen when Lim told him about it years previously before he came clean. When he had nowhere to go after not getting a ride with Radioshack, he then decides to initiate it.

I consider Kimmage and the Stepanovas as whistleblowers in sport who did it for the right reasons. Landis no, the complete opposite.

In the context of sport, motives are key to judge and discuss.

The rewards were there for Landis when he got busted. He could have come clean then, reduced ban and he could have rode the Tour again. He refused and fought the process in every way possible.

You don't know jack about why Landis did what he did. You are guessing and projecting. You are also wrong. Floyd does not expect to get anything from the qui tam case.

 

[gooner]

Wiggins deserves the criticism for commenting on Landis' mental health but do not give me this paragon of virtue with Landis considering his past behaviour too. He was Lance Armstrong, whistleblower or not.

Encouraging whistleblowing is one thing, yet the financial aspect of it is the only reason Landis has come forward. I don't think he cares in the slightest about the welfare of the sport. He had this idea from Prentice Steffen when Lim told him about it years previously before he came clean. When he had nowhere to go after not getting a ride with Radioshack, he then decides to initiate it.

I consider Kimmage and the Stepanovas as whistleblowers in sport who did it for the right reasons. Landis no, the complete opposite.

In the context of sport, motives are key to judge and discuss.

The rewards were there for Landis when he got busted. He could have come clean then, reduced ban and he could have rode the Tour again. He refused and fought the process in every way possible.

You don't know jack about why Landis did what he did. You are guessing and projecting. You are also wrong. Floyd does not expect to get anything from the qui tam case.

Now you say that.

I think his actions say it all about his motives.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

LOL. Floyd goes full *** in his new interview. Some classic quotes about Wiggins. Check it out.

Got a link?

https://rouleur.cc/editorial/54468-2/

I only wish it were longer and not as redacted.

There will be a much longer article in the print version. I don't know if it is out yet since I don't want to drop the bones--many many bones--that a Roleur subscription costs, even if it is probably the best cycling periodical available today. The pre print version is is quite extensive. Good stuff and not just for some choice quotes about Wiggins.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Isn't Landis chasing whiste blower money if the US Government succeeds in their court case against Armstrong ? It paints a pretty picture !

Actually, its the US Government who is seeking restitution under the Federal Crimes Act for the money that Armstrong illegally used to profit from.

I didn't pick you as an Armstrong fan but I guess you like Wiggins so not a long stretch to make

Yes - And Landis is due to get 30% of any money if the US Government is successful in their court case against Armstrong - Strange that no-one else in the ' Armstrong Coterie' thought to be a whistle-blower - How convenient; Testify when your career is finished with the potential bonus of a big pay day - It says lots about Landis' character.

Because I correctly point out that UKAD needs to produce evidence to charge Wiggins, that somehow equates to me being supportive of Wiggins.

You are drawing a long bow with your latest post.

You'd turn down the money...

Man, the more things change, the more things stay the same...Armstrong fanboys of old should be a cautionary tale for Wiggins/Froome fanboys of new...

 

[Digger]

Re:

Lets forget about challenging the process with USADA in every way possible, Floyd Fairness Fund, and hacking into French anti-doping. Every doper does that.

Fact of the matter is Landis filed this whistleblower suit straightaway after he came clean and he knew there was potential to exploit this avenue as he was approached to be a part of it some years previously before he was busted. Do you think he only did this for the sake of it. This was carefully thought out on his part.

most dopers caught do challenge the ADA - Millar was suing Kimmage before caught.
The fund he got a record for - which he knew he would.
French anti doping hack - show me the proof and email it to Floyd I am sure he will be grateful for this proof.

No he didn't file it straightaway - you are making sh** up.

He came clean not to save cycling but to stop lies.

I told you the facts with the money all information he knew in advance - you are ignoring that now.

Ironic you talk of money when he turned down almost 100 grand for a few hours work on the walsh movie - money millar accepted despite the fact he discredited landis when landis confessed...


you do have a naïve idea that people tell the truth for cycling and to improve it - outside of kimmage I can't name one who did it for this - most do it simply to stop lies and be able to tell the truth to their families and friends. Your bias on landis seems to come from walsh...and the fact that landis sees through sky and saw through the farce that is sky and wigggins from day one.
Wiggins was a grupetto rider - that's the fact.
He doped.
You and your ilk have supported sky and wiggins and say you hate dopers - well you have all supported a guy who took cortisone for doping purposes.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Landis only really started talking when he realized the cycling world had rejected him though. He wanted to return to cycling but when he found out he wasn't welcome anymore (not even at Radioshack or whatever the team was called back then) he started talking.

I don't think he would have ever said anything if Bruyneel simply took him in. It's a good thing he said the things he said, but I find it hard to imagine there were any noble intentions behind it.

 

[gooner]

Re:

Landis only really started talking when he realized the cycling world had rejected him though. He wanted to return to cycling but when he found out he wasn't welcome anymore (not even at Radioshack or whatever the team was called back then) he started talking.

I don't think he would have ever said anything if Bruyneel simply took him in. It's a good thing he said the things he said, but I find it hard to imagine there were any noble intentions behind it.

I wasn't going to respond because it's pointless dealing with people who are mouthpieces for Landis, but this is a clear cut fact above.

 

[sniper]

Motivations of whistleblowers are relevant only, and I mean exclusively, then when these motivations somehow negatively affect the credibility of the whistleblower.
This isn't the case with Landis. If anything, it's the reverse in that his motivations only cemented his credibility.

Wiggins didn't understand this. Or at least "not fully" as cound would say.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Landis only really started talking when he realized the cycling world had rejected him though. He wanted to return to cycling but when he found out he wasn't welcome anymore (not even at Radioshack or whatever the team was called back then) he started talking.

I don't think he would have ever said anything if Bruyneel simply took him in. It's a good thing he said the things he said, but I find it hard to imagine there were any noble intentions behind it.

I wasn't going to respond because it's pointless dealing with people who are mouthpieces for Landis, but this is a clear cut fact above.

Fact from another poster? Yet you dismiss other posts.

It is not clear whether Landis will make any money from QuiTam case till the case is over. Not sure how he did it for money is fact when in fact he has not gotten any money.

Of all the dopers in the sport and there are many many many of them, Landis is ahead of most of them in credibility terms.

 

[Zypherov]

Just waiting for some poster to say that Bryan Steel is enforcing the omerta.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Just waiting for some poster to say that Bryan Steel is enforcing the omerta.

Probably just angling for a gig at TeamWigans.