Quadafi's death.

[python]

.....He fell because he was an utter failure at managing the protests.

hard to argue with this statement but i think there is far more to his fall...in the political thread i linked a utube interview with the former reagan govt official. according to him, lybia's uprising, unlike virtually all other arabic spring peaceful protests was an armed rebellion from getgo. someone somehow paid for the arms, delivered them and organized and trained the rebels. that reagan dude hints at the cia...i am not saying it was all instigated from abroad, but not seeing the west's interest in the regime change imo would be naive.

Qaddafi was a stubborn eccentric dictator who gradually lost powerful friends both domestically and abroad. this all added up and his refusal to join western initiatives in africa spelled his doom.

 

[ramjambunath]

In a word, yes.

The people celebrating are not spectators on CNN or relying on updates via twitter - they were the oppressed citizens of Ghadaffis regime.

Many will have literally been risking their own lives in the fight for his removal - so of course they will celebrate his removal (death or capture) as it has liberated their country and allows the people of Libya to dictate their future.

That's not true. A few months ago Egypt was living a dream, now you have stories about how coptic Christians being killed in Egypt.

They were oppressed, but to think that killing one man will change the country's situation is nigh on delusional. There is no guarantee as of now to say the NTC will be the bastion of freedom, only time will tell.

To think that Libya's path to democracy is going to be as smooth as that, then again you are sadly mistaken because the country has no electoral institutions and can easily be defrauded ala Afghanistan.

Also, what will happen in the west if a party like the Muslim Brotherhood gets into power.

 

[hrotha]

Well maybe.
But since when western coalition favors human rights?
I did not seen any NATO live fire exercise over Algeria, Morocco, Bahrain or Siria, did you? Of course we can allways say it is internal affair
So I am assuming that oil&gas is main reason. Without NATO planes dude would be alive.

I'm not saying they did it for the human rights, in fact I plainly said they were cool with Gaddafi before, human rights be damned (or should I say, in light of python's post, appeared to be cool with Gaddafi before).

My impression, which again I might have to reconsider, is that the West decided Gaddafi had become a liability and that they couldn't rely on him to keep things stable and friendly to the West, so they switched horses, but prior to the uprising they were getting along with him just fine.

 

[oldborn]

I'm not saying they did it for the human rights, in fact I plainly said they were cool with Gaddafi before, human rights be damned (or should I say, in light of python's post, appeared to be cool with Gaddafi before).

My impression, which again I might have to reconsider, is that the West decided Gaddafi had become a liability and that they couldn't rely on him to keep things stable and friendly to the West, so they switched horses, but prior to the uprising they were getting along with him just fine.

I see hrotha, maybe you are right. In simple words dude has not be popular as before.
But I just think putting sanctions against the former loyalist forces but not the revolutionaries maybe was not good idea. This Libya thing is complicated, and yes dude has lost compass.

Ok lets bomb Burma, shall we? Oh no 70% of people do not know where it is, or never heard of it. And guess what, they are not loaded with oil&gas or to close to China.

I am just saying

 

[Amsterhammer]

Originally Posted by ramjambunath
Why though?
What has it changed?
Will Libya all of a sudden be a better place tomorrow?

If anything this is an indictment about the levels of human rights of the NTC

In a word, yes.

The people celebrating are not spectators on CNN or relying on updates via twitter - they were the oppressed citizens of Ghadaffis regime.

Many will have literally been risking their own lives in the fight for his removal - so of course they will celebrate his removal (death or capture) as it has liberated their country and allows the people of Libya to dictate their future.

As so often, the good Dr. hits the nail on the head. I totally understand the celebrations and evident joy of the people of Libya today, and I seriously do not understand why people like Ramjam here above, who I assume has not lived his entire life under the rule of a lunatic despot, feel it necessary to carp and criticize the final act of a bloody revolution that has been going on for eight months?

Criticizing the NTC for their human rights record because of Gaddafi's death is also uncalled for, imho. I'm sure that there were abuses, are abuses, and that there will continue to be abuses, none of which is a reason to not support the people of Libya in their forthcoming struggle to enter the world of 'democracy' under whatever new leadership they see fit to choose for themselves.

Indeed, the situation isn't very much alike.
Ghadaffis dead happend in a battle in a real war. He more or less was the old regime there were fighting against in many ways. So this is a victory of a very diffrent sort.

In contrast, celebrations about Obamas dead were not celebratiosn about winning a war, but the celebration of revenge and the execution of someone who should have been brought to justice in a trial. There is no justice in simply executing someone. Also here, it would have been better to capture Ghadaffi, but I'd guess they didn't even try - out of pragmatic reasons.

It is evident that you have rechtschreib issues, but there is no excuse for not seeing the difference between a dead terrorist and a live president.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

That's not true. A few months ago Egypt was living a dream, now you have stories about how coptic Christians being killed in Egypt.

They were oppressed, but to think that killing one man will change the country's situation is nigh on delusional. There is no guarantee as of now to say the NTC will be the bastion of freedom, only time will tell.

To think that Libya's path to democracy is going to be as smooth as that, then again you are sadly mistaken because the country has no electoral institutions and can easily be defrauded ala Afghanistan.

Also, what will happen in the west if a party like the Muslim Brotherhood gets into power.

Well hold on, you asked "will Libya be a better place tomorrow" - which IMO it will.

A for everything else you wrote - that is something you read in to, which I neither said nor believe.

Ghadaffis removal only moves Libya to its next stage of being in a political vacuum and perhaps civil war - however Ghadaffis removal was necessary to move that along.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I see hrotha, maybe you are right. In simple words dude has not be popular as before.
But I just think putting sanctions against the former loyalist forces but not the revolutionaries maybe was not good idea. This Libya thing is complicated, and yes dude has lost compass.

Ok lets bomb Burma, shall we? Oh no 70% of people do not know where it is, or never heard of it. And guess what, they are not loaded with oil&gas or to close to China.

I am just saying

Myanmar is rich in mineral resources.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Ezekiel 33:11:

+1
but I don't blame those who have suffered under Moamar's rule for doing a little celebrating

 

[ramjambunath]

Amster, I haven't lived in a place with an autocratic ruler so I can't speak as first person and the same holds true for all other posters here as well.

NATO is ready to work with the Libyan people and with the Transitional National Council, which holds a great responsibility. They must make sure that the transition is smooth and inclusive, that the country stays united, and that the future is founded on reconciliation and respect for human rights.

This was said by the NATO secretary general on the 21st August, and we know that NATO played an active role in supporting the NTC. It does not reflect well upon the NTC to kill two people, no matter how heinous scum they were

My other concern with the NTC is, I just hope it doesn't turn out badly. At the moment, it seems a monopoly and monopolies can be disastrous (India 1975, Mugabe through his last few years independent rule among others).

Let me clarify my position which may be taken wrongly, I am not saying that Libya under the NTC has no future, far from it. Neither am I saying Gaddafi was a saint (read my earlier posts). The work hasn't even started though, it is in these next few months or years that the real challenges begin. I stated this in the politics thread and Amster I am sure you read it, if there was one certainty in this movement it was that the govt and more importantly the Gaddafi clan would be overthrown.

Saddam was as bad as Gaddafi if not worse but he was captured and taken to court then executed as should be the procedure.

Dr.Maserati, I think that quote pretty much explains the question. My first post stated that this thread may not be about policy and it hasn't been. I have a clutch of policy questions in the Politics thread and read the last 5 or so pages and that would be the question you answered. Even then, when building a democracy from scratch as is the case in Libya we'll have to wait a while before seeing any tangible results.

 

[Le breton]

Ok lets bomb Burma, shall we? Oh no 70% of people do not know where it is, or never heard of it. And guess what, they are not loaded with oil&gas

100% of oldborn does not know that Myanmar (not Burma) is oil-rich. Total operates there, among other oil companies.

 

[Le breton]

..............
the death of Gaddafi............... Anyone involved in terrorist activities (Lockerbie and Al Qaida) are sick individual .

We all know about the terrible actions, including international terrorism, of Ghaddafi, (including that French plane in Africa), but I am far from convinced that he was behind the Lockerbie episode.

Hopefully someone will speak now that he is dead and we might get to know the truth. I still could believe that he had a hand in that bombing, but acting on behalf of Iran.

I tend to believe that Iran wanted to avenge the accidental shooting of an Iranian plane by the US and retaliated with the Lockerbie bomb.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Amster, I haven't lived in a place with an autocratic ruler so I can't speak as first person and the same holds true for all other posters here as well.......

I know that perfectly well, of course!

I wanted to draw you out and have you clarify your position because I didn't understand why you appeared to show such lack of understanding for how (I imagine) 'liberated' the people of Libya must be feeling. I agree that in an ideal world, he would have been captured, well cared for, put on trial, and then shot. Sadly, we see every single day that we don't live in an ideal world and that s*** happens. It should, of course, be no surprise to anyone that there is always a massive gap between the supposed good intentions of our rulers, and what happens in reality.

Latest reports suggest that Saif al-Islam, the high profile son, is also dead.

 

[Altitude]

The Libyan people have every right to celebrate Ghadaffis death.

The American people did not have the right to dance in the streets celebrating Bin Ladens death (if hes actually dead which I doubt)

What do you mean "the right"? Clearly they did have the right or else they wouldn't have been able to do it. Your disapproval of something doesn't dictate whether it is right or wrong.

 

[Le breton]

................
Saddam was as bad as Gaddafi if not worse but he was captured and taken to court then executed as should be the procedure.

.........

Sure Saddam was brought to trial, but the charges were carefully chosen so as not to embarrass the occidental powers and the 53 countries - foremost the US. - that sold him weapons.

Considering that Ghaddafi had become totally crazy over the past few years (before he was just seriously unbalanced), not much would have been learned from a trial.

 

[oldborn]

100% of oldborn does not know that Myanmar (not Burma) is oil-rich. Total operates there, among other oil companies.

Well did not know that Burma or Myanmar has oil&gas reserves as one oil field in Kurdistan. Of course they have it, but not even close to top 20 countries.

Total there:
"To those who ask us to leave the country, we reply that far from solving Myanmar's problems, a forced withdrawal would only lead to our replacement by other operators probably less committed to the ethical principles guiding all our initiatives," Jean-Francois Lassalle, vice president of public affairs for Total Exploration & Production, said this week in a statement.

In simple words hypocrisy, or we do not give a **** about Burma

I am just saying

 

[Le breton]

Amster, I haven't lived in a place with an autocratic ruler so I can't speak as first person and the same holds true for all other posters here as well.

.

A long time ago I have lived in a country that was autocratic at the time, ie where the "democratically elected president" kept in power through terror and massacres.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm with Immaculate Kadence.

As an American, I see no reason to celebrate. If the Libyans who were oppressed by him wish to celebrate, it is not my position to judge them.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

It is evident that you have rechtschreib issues, but there is no excuse for not seeing the difference between a dead terrorist and a live president.

That is indeed true, but I actually editited those mistakes. I wonder what went wrong...

 

[Semper Fidelis]

you are correk

The Libyan people have every right to celebrate Ghadaffis death.

The American people did not have the right to dance in the streets celebrating Bin Ladens death (if hes actually dead which I doubt)

I think those Libyan people should be ashamed of themselves for celebrating the death of Gadhafi. Gadhafi was not all that bad he was the leader of that country for 40 something years. If he was all that bad how come it took so long for everyone there to get all bent out of shape about him?

I just saw Osama Bin Laden on the BBC talking to a reporter about the Greek crises. I am with you on he is not dead stuff. The American people should be ashamed of themselves for celebrating the faked death of an alleged criminal.

Just a little bit Sarc. fyi

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I'm with Immaculate Kadence.

As an American, I see no reason to celebrate. If the Libyans who were oppressed by him wish to celebrate, it is not my position to judge them.

I don't think this is true at all. The question whether it's right or wrong to celebrate the death of a person, not the effects of it, is a very basic and general one. So it doesn't matter if you are Libyan or American.
Of course conceding that there are any objective moral judgements at all.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I think those Libyan people should be ashamed of themselves for celebrating the death of Gadhafi. Gadhafi was not all that bad he was the leader of that country for 40 something years. If he was all that bad how come it took so long for everyone there to get all bent out of shape about him?

Do you think Russians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Estonians etc. and especially Georgians should celebrate Stalins birthday then?

 

[ramjambunath]

I know that perfectly well, of course!

I wanted to draw you out and have you clarify your position because I didn't understand why you appeared to show such lack of understanding for how (I imagine) 'liberated' the people of Libya must be feeling. I agree that in an ideal world, he would have been captured, well cared for, put on trial, and then shot. Sadly, we see every single day that we don't live in an ideal world and that s*** happens. It should, of course, be no surprise to anyone that there is always a massive gap between the supposed good intentions of our rulers, and what happens in reality.

Latest reports suggest that Saif al-Islam, the high profile son, is also dead.

I wasn't 100% clear on my position (mainly because I came here halfway through a discussion) and I hope that I clarified it well enough.

Another reason why I may have come off as insensitive is because I cant help my mind lingering to Bahrain where there were genuine anti govt protests which were quashed in very similar means to what Gaddafi tried. Why though were NATO not so involved in the freedom of citizens there.

Would these citizens of Libya even be feeling this sense of joy if Gaddafi was a US ally? I don't think so.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/07/2011725145048574888.html

Would NATO have allowed this in Libya if it went to one of its allies? Again I don't think so.

Sure Saddam was brought to trial, but the charges were carefully chosen so as not to embarrass the occidental powers and the 53 countries - foremost the US. - that sold him weapons.

Considering that Ghaddafi had become totally crazy over the past few years (before he was just seriously unbalanced), not much would have been learned from a trial.

I don't want to get into that, if I get started on the double standards, I will never stop and it will somehow get strewn all the way to Viktor Bout. I will just say that though it was a show trial, the man was brought to court before being executed (and the released video was the single worst thing that happened on the net), same could have been done to gaddafi. It's better than shooting him.

 

[fatandfast]

I'm with Immaculate Kadence.

As an American, I see no reason to celebrate. If the Libyans who were oppressed by him wish to celebrate, it is not my position to judge them.

I remember the feelings of disgust I had during the LA riots watching people get hit w wooden clubs, bricks and rocks. Watching people get pulled from their cars, homes and businesses and beaten by cheering mobs. Same sick feeling as I watched guy kicking around a human corpse. F-cking disgusting. Do it there. If you do it here I will resist your imported customs.

And the screaming of a religious chant over and over, that the actions are somehow intermingled with some religion is a travesty, a travesty if it is part of a religious celebration or if it's not and the mob playing kickball with a dead guys head and smearing his blood on their clothes as a souvenir is worth a look as they receive our sympathy...and aid money. Good to know who our friends are.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

There are photos and videos out there of a deceased Qaddafi. Please DO NOT post any of them here. If you wish to make a link, with a warning, that's fine. But no photos or video clips on this site.

Thank you.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Do you think Russians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Estonians etc. and especially Georgians should celebrate Stalins birthday then?

I was just poking at TeamSky. I should have put some and on there to show that I was not serious.

Um about the birthday ... No I do not.