Race Design Challenge II

[Gigs_98]

First of all, thanks to all the participants.

Secondly, having only four participants is a bit underwhelming
As things stand I am not sure I would continue the competition as planned.

What I am inclined to do is let you guys post your stages without the hassle of the every-other-day scheduling, as well as the evaluations, just not to waste the time you have put into these designs.

Otoh, I would like first to hear your opinion on the matter, as well as the judges'.

Do you want to continue the challenge as originally planned, or call it off and just showcase the routes as if it was the race design thread?

In any case, I will delay everything by one day. If anybody wants to join, they can do it today. In the meantime, please let me know your opinion.

I don't know, but a competition with only 4 participants would only be half the fun. Maybe we can wait longer, and ask the people who originally wanted to participate how much more time they would need if they would still want to participate. I mean there obviously were a lot more people interested a few weeks ago. Looking through the thread there were at least 6 people who showed interest to make a route but then never wrote something about it again plus the guys who wrote that they wanted to participate but didn't have enough time, like Tonton. We easily could have had around ten players.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think the project was a bit over the top, it might have scared a lot of people and it would have been extremely time consuming compared to say regular GT's. I must admit I found the Giro challenge last year a lot more attractive, both as a reader and a potential stage maker (not that I am one, but if I was, I would be a lot more intrigued by that).

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

I think the project was a bit over the top, it might have scared a lot of people and it would have been extremely time consuming compared to say regular GT's. I must admit I found the Giro challenge last year a lot more attractive, both as a reader and a potential stage maker (not that I am one, but if I was, I would be a lot more intrigued by that).

I agree. Basically I could make a giro in 2 days. It wouldn't be a very good or innovative one, but I could just make the last two weeks in the Alps, where I know all the important passes and would maybe need 10 minutes per stage. And I'm 100% sure that counts for many people in this forum. A race through the whole Roman Empire however is extremely difficult. There are so many areas you could visit. There are so many climbs in these areas which I don't know. Alone to find out which streets are usable is extremely difficult in some countries. Moreover we couldn't just finish a stage in every city and the race is even one week longer than a giro. Simply everything was difficult in this challenge and I fear thats why so many gave up. I'm lucky that I have holidays, otherwise it would have been impossible for me too, and I say that although I'm still in school. I don't want to know how it is for someone who works more than 40 hours a week.

 

[Red Rick]

First of all, thanks to all the participants.

Secondly, having only four participants is a bit underwhelming
As things stand I am not sure I would continue the competition as planned.

What I am inclined to do is let you guys post your stages without the hassle of the every-other-day scheduling, as well as the evaluations, just not to waste the time you have put into these designs.

Otoh, I would like first to hear your opinion on the matter, as well as the judges'.

Do you want to continue the challenge as originally planned, or call it off and just showcase the routes as if it was the race design thread?

In any case, I will delay everything by one day. If anybody wants to join, they can do it today. In the meantime, please let me know your opinion.

I agree that only four participants is a bit of a shame, but no doubt there's already gone a lot of effort into the stage, and race designs. I think the participants should decide if they want it to continue like a competition, or if they want to do it like in the race design thread. It's their races, and they should decide if they want it jugded or not. I'd be fine with their decision either way.

 

[rghysens]

I would like to continue the challenge, although I don't know if I'd finish it, as I haven't designed stages 12-18, and I don't have too much spare time. The most problematic for me are the write-ups, as I already mentioned a couple of times.
Maybe you can ask some of the initial would-be competitors if they would participate if they had a week extra, and no big effort should be made in the write-ups (some of you are really crazy with regard to this), but than it adds to the flair and makes it easy to appreciate the cultural part of the design. Maybe you should make an overal competition (technical + cultural), a cultural and a technical?
I also agree that the challenge was a bit ambitious at first sight, but you would be surprised how many towns that are frequented by cycling races already existed in the Roman era.

Anyway, I hope the whole thing isn't cancelled, but I'll let Eshnar decide.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

I would like to continue the challenge, although I don't know if I'd finish it, as I haven't designed stages 12-18, and I don't have too much spare time. The most problematic for me are the write-ups, as I already mentioned a couple of times.
Maybe you can ask some of the initial would-be competitors if they would participate if they had a week extra, and no big effort should be made in the write-ups (some of you are really crazy with regard to this), but than it adds to the flair and makes it easy to appreciate the cultural part of the design. Maybe you should make an overal competition (technical + cultural), a cultural and a technical?
I also agree that the challenge was a bit ambitious at first sight, but you would be surprised how many towns that are frequented by cycling races already existed in the Roman era.

Anyway, I hope the whole thing isn't cancelled, but I'll let Eshnar decide.

I'm also against extra points for write ups. The write ups are mainly about how much time someone has and for example I had a lot of time for the first stage because I still have holidays. But it would be nonsense if someone like you has a disadvantage only because of less time.

 

[Eshnar]

Postponing the whole thing wouldn't be a problem, but I don't see how anyone else would participate. The challenge was announced 2 months ago and already postponed by 2 weeks. If they didn't have the time there, they won't now as well.

 

[Red Rick]

We could do no points for the write ups, as write ups pretty much affect cultural part of the stage design already.

 

[Eshnar]

Re:

We could do no points for the write ups, as write ups pretty much affect cultural part of the stage design already.

I don't really believe that anybody didn't participate because of the write-ups bonus, but yeah if it was a problem I would cancel it

 

[rghysens]

On a more important note: posting of the second stage is still postponed till tuesday?

 

[Eshnar]

Re:

On a more important note: posting of the second stage is still postponed till tuesday?

Yes definitely. Postponed to when we decide what to do
Today I'm travelling so won't have much time anyway

 

[mb2612]

If we changed it to a week long stage race, would more people be interested in entering?

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

If we changed it to a week long stage race, would more people be interested in entering?

I would definitely imagine so, but then the whole challenge would have to change.

 

[Eshnar]

changing it to one week is out of the question

I would inclined to call it (partially) off. We could let you guys post your stages whenever and perhaps we can only judge them after each week...?
Just to make it quicker, while not making it completely pointless.

What do you all think?

 

[barmaher]

I feel sorry for the lads that put the effort into making the race. For me, the task was too big.

I was really looking forward to looking at the routes, but I completely understand why the number of participants is low.

 

[rghysens]

Re:

changing it to one week is out of the question

I would inclined to call it (partially) off. We could let you guys post your stages whenever and perhaps we can only judge them after each week...?
Just to make it quicker, while not making it completely pointless.

What do you all think?

Don't you think that posting stages "whenever" will result in posting no stages at all?
Why don't you just continue as planned, but with 4 participants (nothing wrong with that, imo) and re-evaluate after 7 or 14 stages?

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

changing it to one week is out of the question

I would inclined to call it (partially) off. We could let you guys post your stages whenever and perhaps we can only judge them after each week...?
Just to make it quicker, while not making it completely pointless.

What do you all think?

Don't you think that posting stages "whenever" will result in posting no stages at all?
Why don't you just continue as planned, but with 4 participants (nothing wrong with that, imo) and re-evaluate after 7 or 14 stages?

I completely agree.

 

[Eshnar]

Re: Re:

changing it to one week is out of the question

I would inclined to call it (partially) off. We could let you guys post your stages whenever and perhaps we can only judge them after each week...?
Just to make it quicker, while not making it completely pointless.

What do you all think?

Don't you think that posting stages "whenever" will result in posting no stages at all?
Why don't you just continue as planned, but with 4 participants (nothing wrong with that, imo) and re-evaluate after 7 or 14 stages?

if we start the competition proper, I will go to the end. I don't like stopping halfway. But this has to go on for two months and we need to make sure both us judges and you players will stay interested in it for as long. As things stand I am not sure we will, that's why I'm hesitant. You have already stated that you don't know if you'll finish it...
...what about making it faster? like 2-3 stages a day or stuff like that.

 

[rghysens]

Re: Re:

changing it to one week is out of the question

I would inclined to call it (partially) off. We could let you guys post your stages whenever and perhaps we can only judge them after each week...?
Just to make it quicker, while not making it completely pointless.

What do you all think?

Don't you think that posting stages "whenever" will result in posting no stages at all?
Why don't you just continue as planned, but with 4 participants (nothing wrong with that, imo) and re-evaluate after 7 or 14 stages?

if we start the competition proper, I will go to the end. I don't like stopping halfway. But this has to go on for two months and we need to make sure both us judges and you players will stay interested in it for as long. As things stand I am not sure we will, that's why I'm hesitant. You have already stated that you don't know if you'll finish it...
...what about making it faster? like 2-3 stages a day or stuff like that.

Well, I had some doubts because
1) I still had some void in the middle of my design, and
2) I wondered if I could hold up the pace of posting a (more or less extensive) stage design every 2 days.

The past few days I filled in that void and I prepared the publication of stages 2 and 3. That convinced me that making a stage description every 2 days would be feasible (but 2 or 3 stages every day or 2 days, won't).

So, I'm ready to continue on the original terms.

 

[Eshnar]

Alright let's go for it then. Today will be the Judges' day, tomorrow you'll post stage 2. Also, write-ups bonuses are cancelled.
Votes for stage 1 will come shortly.

 

[Eshnar]

Judge 1:

Here's my grades of the first stages. I'd like to add that I love the idea of starting a month-long homage to the Roman Empire in the city where it ended. It feels like a new beginning.

Gigs_98 T: 2 C: 5
Starting a GT with a flat prologue is generally fine, but it doesn't really stand out from ordinary GT's

Brullnux T: 2 C: 4
See above

Rghysens T: 3 C: 4
This TT is more tricky and testing and it feels more fitting for a race with a premise as grand as this one

mb2612 T: 1 C: 3
I'm no fan of flat opening stages in GTs.


Judge 2:

mb2612 T: 2 C: 2
I don't like sprint stages to kick off races. No special obstacles to save the stage. Would be interesting enough during the race, but Grand Tours deserve grand starts

Gigs_98 T: 4 C: 4
I like minor hills in short time trials...make the fat boys work for the leader's jersey.

rghysens T: 3 C: 3
Smyrna is a decent spot. Route takes in some nice eye candy. I like minor hills (see above)

Brullnux T: 4 C: 4
Solid. Istanbul is perfect place to start.


Judge 3:

rghysens: T: 4 C: 3
This was my favourite of the stages from a parcours point of view, I like a tough TT that's not too long at the start of a race. It opens up GC gaps from the word go, but without being so big that it doesn't give others a chance of grabbing the lead early.

Gigs_98: T: 4 C: 4
Although not as tough or long as rghysens' TT, this does have the advantage when it comes to the cultural points with the history of Constantinople and the picking out of start/finish spots.

Brullnux: T: 3 C: 4
I appreciated keeping the TT to take place entirely in the old city, but I just preferred Gigs' TT slightly because of the rolling terrain the new town allowed.

mb2612: T: 2 C: 5
A long road stage is a change of pace, although I'm not in favour of a pure sprint stage to open a long stage race. However, the idea of following the Roman Road start to finish explained that and is a very nice idea, worthy of maximum cultural points.


Judge 4:

rghysens: T: 5 C: 2
Of all possible starting locations for a Roman GT I would never have thought of Smyrna. The prologue is nice, long and hard enough to be interesting.

Gigs_98: T: 4 C: 3
"Normal" prologue. You get less cultural points than your direct competitor because you also went to the new part of the city.

Brullnux: T: 4 C: 4
When I wondered what would my route be like, Istanbul was the obvious choice as starting place, but for technical reasons more than cultural.

mb2612: T: 3 C: 5
This will probably be a crashfest if raced in real life. I appreciate the fact that at least it is very long, the riders will have to wake up early for that XD. Culturally however, it ticks all boxes, much more than Istanbul imo.


CLASSIFICATION AFTER STAGE 1:

Gigs_98: 30
Brullnux: 29
rghysens: 27
mb2612: 23

 

[Eshnar]

Btw Brullnux, why is it Romanos and not Romanum?

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Btw Brullnux, why is it Romanos and not Romanum?

I used the genitive, I wasn't sure if iter took the genitive, and imperum is third... No it's second neuter damn.

 

[Eshnar]

Re: Re:

Btw Brullnux, why is it Romanos and not Romanum?

I used the genitive, I wasn't sure if iter took the genitive, and imperum is third... No it's second neuter damn.

I would call it either Iter Imperii Romani (both genitive with no preposition) or Iter per Imperium Romanum (per + accusative noun + accusative adj.).
or if you want to say Empire of the romans (and not roman empire) then it would be Iter per Imperium Romanorum (per + accusative + pl. genitive) I guess.

 

[Brullnux]

Iter per Imperium Romanum is the best. I thought per took the genitive and imperium was third declension. Thank god my GCSE is next year