Race Design Thread

[w52]

Volta a Portugal

Stage 14: Feira – Arouca (176.4km)

Last stage of this Volta a Portugal and it will be a hell of stage, the last opportunity to change something in the GC. The 176.4km route is very hard and can provide a great show with long range attacks, last day will definitely not be a boring parade.

Stage starts in the city of Santa Maria da Feira, close to the castle, a place that is the scenario of some races in Portugal, like the final stage of Volta ás Terras de Santa Maria, one of the most important races for u23 riders in Portugal.

First 30km are hilly and the first climb of the day appears at 36.2km in Parque da Cabreira a cat.3 in Sever do Vouga, with some ramps at 8%. Parque da Cabreira will serve as an appetizer for the first cat.1 climb of the day in Talhadas, that will come after a steep descent of Cabreira. Talhadas is not very steep but it’s ~12km will make some damage in riders legs (unfortunately i don’t find a profile of these climbs). From the top of Talhadas there is an easier section of this stage until São Pedro do Sul. In this city hostility restarts, first with the ascent to São Félix (cat.4) and after the monster climb to São Macário, one of the hardest climbs in Portugal.

After São Macario, exists a short flat followed by a short climb to the peak of Serra da Arada and only there starts the descent São Macário, although far from the finish line can provide attacks once that after the descent there is no flat until the end. Finished the descent of Serra da Arada, immediately starts another climb, cat.2 in Senhora da Mó, where rider will found max. gradients of 15%.

After this climb there is a very short descent to the centre of Arouca and from there starts the last climb of the day to Serra da Freita, a cat.1 climb. This climb has 7% average but in several stretches we can find gradients up to 16/17% in narrow roads with a tarmarc that is harsh.

Reached the top of Freita is all the way down to Arouca to the finish line and competition.

Hope you enjoyed this ride through Portuguese roads. I will try to make the library until tomorrow night.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Holy *** thats brutal, LS!

+7000 vertical gain?

 

[TromleTromle]

Re:

Road Race: Elite Men
Pont-Saint-Martin - Aosta, 259km

Although 259km is not all that long for a Worlds, we do have here one of the toughest routes there's ever been. We follow the same concept as is common in recent years of approximately 100km before laps of a circuit, however not only is that circuit tough but here the lead-in is brutal too. Much like the U23 men and Elite Women, the men have to take on Lin-Noir before they join the circuit, however as the increased number of circuits pushes this further from the finish, in order to have the same intended effect there needs to be more toughness, hence before it I have also added the climb to Les Fleurs, which is a very nasty climb to the point where the two routes to the Pila ski station converge, corresponding to the first 12,2km of this:

These average a little over 7% so with this and Lin Noir back to back, riders will have to be wary about letting strong escapes go, as well as the favourites needing to look after their domestiques. But once they're over the two major climbs, it's all about smaller punchy climbs, so will depend on who's feeling strong out of hilly riders whether they can stay with the strong grimpeurs who will want to leave them behind before the circuit.

Plus with the circuit itself, the toughest climb is the first, so it's furthest from the finish, yet going there does entail a bit of solo action against the chase on the more gradual final climb, and some technical cornering on the run-in. This could be a really intriguing battle.

BRRRRRRUTAL.

Take your idea and do a Innsbruck 2018 from a start in Imst/Landeck, and Silzer & Kühtai before the circuit - that would be BRUTAL as well

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Holy **** thats brutal, LS!

+7000 vertical gain?

Cronoescalada says just over 5500 actually.

 

[railxmig]

I have a problem. How do you make climb profiles in Cronoescalada? I tried to do it myself for like two months and it seems that i just cannot do it.

 

[fauniera]

TOUR DE FRANCE

(Sun) stage 9: Mauléon-Licharre - Montagne Basque / Chalets d'Iraty, 134 km

No Tour without my beloved Basque mountains. It's a short and intense stage on the day before the first rest day. We start in the small Basque town Mauléon-Licharre.

The first 20 km are flat, then climbing begins on the narrow road towards Ahusquy.

After 7 km at 8% the first GPM of the day is reached, Arangaitz. We do not continue towards Ahusquy, instead we take the spectacular road toward Col Bagargui via Col d'Arhansus.

The road goes up in steps, the next pass is Col de Burdin Olatze.

Next is Col d'Arhansus...

... and finally Col Bagargui at km 43.

The riders will be happy that the descent via Col de Burdincurutcheta is on a bigger road than the ascent. After 74 km Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port is reached. I agree with Libertine that this should be the Briançon of the Pyrenees, but ASO won't have it. The climb to Col d'Arnostéguy (via Elhursaro) starts in the village itself.

After 4 km the hardest part of the climb begins: 3 km at an average gradient of 13,5%!

After Elhursaro the climb flattens out, but compensates that with breathtaking scenery. And with sheep, lots of sheep. Wild horses, too.

The descent from Arnostéguy is fast and not easy.

This brings us to the penultimate climb of the day, the mighty Errozate.

The climb starts with 6 km at 10,6% (Col d'Arthe).

The next 3 km to Col d’Arthaburu include some false flats, but also steep parts.

Finally the last km to Errozate.

I expect the peloton to be in pieces at that point (and Nairo to solo to victory). The descent is short but steep and difficult. A good descender should be able to use his skills to his advantage here.

The final climb to Col de Sourzay is more a false flat than a climb. A bit like Aprica, if you want.

A short descent brings us to the finish, a parking space close to the Chalets d'Iraty.

first week:

 

[Nirvana]

That's the route that i draw yesterday for Ponte a Ema-Bagno di Romagna of the Giro, as i mentioned in the Giro thread i'm biased for this stage because i know well these streets (i live in Florence since 1997) and i regularly visit these climbs (with the car, not the bike i must admit :redface: ) so i wanted a super hard stage.

More than 200 kms as a proper hard mountain stage and nearly 6000 metres of altitude gain but i addedd an extra, 15 kms of sterrato on the Pratomagno, it's a panoramic road with good surface and some parts at over 10% of slope that stats after you pass the Abbazzia di Vallombrosa and finish at the beginning of the descent to the Casentino valley.

The hardest part is the climb to Monte Giovi, probably i was even generous to give only second category to this climb based on the lenght (less than 9 kms) because has multiple stretches at over 10% slopes with a very narrow road (you can barely pass with a car). Unfortunately the asphalt on the descent is in bad state and need to be repaved to use it in a race.

 

[jsem94]

LS, that is just beautiful. Vladivostok was great too, but this Valle d'Aosta worlds is truly something else.

 

[Netserk]

Nice first week, fauniera. I especially like the selectiveness of the first stage, and that other than that, there's almost no overlapping with the route I'm planning (unlike Forever The Best's Tour on the previous page). I too have a Basque stage, but it's a bit different. I think the hardest in designing such a stage is compromising between improbable, unrealistic and impossible. But given the Vuelta stage this year, it does seem like more and more roads are (/will be) usable than previously thought. The Culoz finish in the Tour also surprised me for where a stage finish could be in the Tour, so perhaps it's not impossible that we'll see a Tour stage with a finish in the French Basque mountains sometime.

 

[mikii4567]

I'm gonna try and (finally) finish my Paris-Nice

Paris-Nice
Stage 7: Grasse - Nice (185km)
http://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/79197

The penultimate day marks what will probably be one of the most decisive stages. We start from Grassse, the world's capital of perfume, known for being a key player in this industry since the 18th century. The riders head north, and hit the Côte de Coursegoules now long after the start. This is a cat. 2 climb, so surely it won't be the most decisive, especially given its proximity to the start. After a false-flat section, the riders climb the cat. 1 Col de Porte, which averages 6.6% over 7.4km. It should be the site of initial selection. Its descent is short, however, as the riders shortly hit the Col de la Cabanette, which is shorter, at 4.9km, but steeper, at 7.6km. After the short and shallow climb of the Col de d'Able, the riders commence one of the more important climbs of the day; the Col de Castillon. This too isn't that steep, but may see the start of some long-range attacks, particularly from good descenders, as the downhill section is very long and the riders reach near-sea level at the intermediate sprint in Menton. The final climb of the day is the Col de la Madonne de Gorbio, which will surely be a site for attacks, especially given that this is the penultimate day. This cat. 1 climb is 13km long and averages 6.7% - it's a solid opportunity for the climbers. This is followed by a long descent into Nice, the tourist city of the Cote d'Azur, known for its natural beauty and historic buildings. The final 2.5km are flat, on the Promenade des Anglais. I'm not sure if next year's race will utilise the street, given what happened on Bastille Day this year, but my race is meant to be timeless (ie. happen at any point in time) so I'll still use it.

Start
Grasse, Place de la Foux (km0 is on the D2085)
Finish
Nice, Promenade des Anglais

Climbs
Côte de Coursegoules (17.6 Km at 4.5%, cat. 2)
Col de Porte (7.4 Km at 6.6%, cat. 1)
Col de la Cabanette (4.9 Km at 7.6%, cat. 1)
Col de d'Able (3.2 Km at 4.6%, cat. 3)
Col de Castillon (6.7 Km at 5.3%, cat. 2)
Col de la Madonne de Gorbio (13.8 Km at 6.7%, cat. 1).

Sprints
Bouyon
Menton

The next stage
You can all guess...

 

[mikii4567]

Paris-Nice
Stage 8: Nice - Col d'Èze (9.6km)
http://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/79200

Does this surprise anyone ?. We end with the 9.6km climb of the Col d'Èze as an ITT. It averages 5.1%, so not too tricky, but we've seen in the past that this climb can be decisive in terms of the GC. In 2012, Bradley Wiggins sealed his win here, and a year later Richie Porte did the same thing. In 2015, Porte won the stage again, and this helped him take the yellow jersey. It could be quite an interesting conclusion to this race, especially given its difficulty and mountainous terrain.

Start
Nice, Avenue des Diables Bleus
Finish
Nice (Col d'Èze), Avenue des Diables Bleus

Climbs
Col d'Èze (9.6 at 5.1%, cat. 1)

Checkpoints
Col des Quatre Chemins

 

[mikii4567]

Paris - Nice summary

Stage 1: Versailles - Rambouillet, 163km

Stage 2: Dourdan - Saint-Amand-Montrond, 163km

Stage 3: Saint-Amand-Montrond > Vallon-en-Sully, 29.4km - ITT

Stage 4: Montluçon - Chalmazel-Jeansagnière, 208km

Stage 5: Bourg-Argental - Mont Ventoux (Chalet Reynard), 198km

Stage 6: Carpentras - Draguignan, 185km

Stage 7: Grasse - Nice, 185km

Stage 8: Nice - Col d'Èze, 9.6km - MTT
Total: 1209km

My next race will probably be a Giro, which I'm currently working on (though I'm unhappy with the way it looks atm )

 

[OlavEH]

In relation to the discussion about next years Giro, and especially the Ortisei stage. What is the best possible finish/last part of a Dolomite stage?

a) Finish at Pordoi via Fedaia +++
b) Finish at Tre Cime Lavaredo via Giau, Tre Croce and preferrably more climbs before Giau.
c) Downhill finish to Cortina via Duran, Staulanza, Giau
d) Other options? Both MTF and downhill finish

Edit: Of course it's Cortina and not Canazei as option c).

 

[Brullnux]

Finish in Selva via Giau (easy)-Fedaia-Sella or even Giau (hard)-Falzarego-Gardena (meh option)
Finish in Corvara via Giau (easy)-Fedaia-Pordoi-Campolongo (Possible MTF at Campolongo)/Giau (Hard)-Falzarego/Fedaia-Sella-Gardena
Finish in Arabba (not a massive fan of this really)
Finish in Cortina
Finish in Ortisei can work really well
Finish on top of Passo Sella
MTF at Pampeago - flopped in 2012 but it's nice IMO
Kronplatz via Erbe or finish in the town under it
Many, many others around the area. The most well-known are the ones around the Sellaronda area but others north and south massif are also very good. I'm sure mayo can give you a better run through.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

In relation to the discussion about next years Giro, and especially the Ortisei stage. What is the best possible finish/last part of a Dolomite stage?

a) Finish at Pordoi via Fedaia +++
b) Finish at Tre Cime Lavaredo via Giau, Tre Croce and preferrably more climbs before Giau.
c) Downhill finish to Canazei via Duran, Staulanza, Giau
d) Other options? Both MTF and downhill finish

The downhill finish in Covara this year was pretty good too. Generally there are endless possibilities in the Dolomites. Downhill finishes in Corvara, Canazei, Cortina, Ortisei, Brixen,... or mtf's on Pordoi, Fedaia, Gardeccia, Zoldo Alto, Tre Cime, San Pellegrino,...
And for every possible finish there are many different climbs to put before it. For example 3 passes start in Corvara, 4 if you count Falzarego and Valparola as two passes.

 

[OlavEH]

Re: Re:

The downhill finish in Covara this year was pretty good too. Generally there are endless possibilities in the Dolomites. Downhill finishes in Corvara, Canazei, Cortina, Ortisei, Brixen,... or mtf's on Pordoi, Fedaia, Gardeccia, Zoldo Alto, Tre Cime, San Pellegrino,...
And for every possible finish there are many different climbs to put before it. For example 3 passes start in Corvara, 4 if you count Falzarego and Valparola as two passes.

I know. The possibilities are endless! A combo I would like to see is Duran-Staulanza-Giau, and then preferrably followed by a downhill finish to Cortina. There isn't much flat terrain between these climbs.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

The downhill finish in Covara this year was pretty good too. Generally there are endless possibilities in the Dolomites. Downhill finishes in Corvara, Canazei, Cortina, Ortisei, Brixen,... or mtf's on Pordoi, Fedaia, Gardeccia, Zoldo Alto, Tre Cime, San Pellegrino,...
And for every possible finish there are many different climbs to put before it. For example 3 passes start in Corvara, 4 if you count Falzarego and Valparola as two passes.

I know. The possibilities are endless! A combo I would like to see is Duran-Staulanza-Giau, and then preferrably followed by a downhill finish to Cortina. There isn't much flat terrain between these climbs.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

The downhill finish in Covara this year was pretty good too. Generally there are endless possibilities in the Dolomites. Downhill finishes in Corvara, Canazei, Cortina, Ortisei, Brixen,... or mtf's on Pordoi, Fedaia, Gardeccia, Zoldo Alto, Tre Cime, San Pellegrino,...
And for every possible finish there are many different climbs to put before it. For example 3 passes start in Corvara, 4 if you count Falzarego and Valparola as two passes.

I know. The possibilities are endless! A combo I would like to see is Duran-Staulanza-Giau, and then preferrably followed by a downhill finish to Cortina. There isn't much flat terrain between these climbs.

Check 2012 Giro d' Italia for that on YT.
... (trust me, you wouldn't watch that).

 

[mikii4567]

I think that stage would've looked better if they stuck on Tre Cime on the end. As it was, Giau was the hardest climb of the day, and since it came last it was certain that it would be the tipping point on the stage. An MTF after it would've meant long range attacks. Generally, whilst descent finishes mean action starts earlier, it leaves everything down to the final climb. Not a lot can be won on a descent, unless you're called Chris Froome and you're on the Peyresourde, or Nairo Quintana and you attack on a Stelvio descent in snow.

My rule of thumb when designing is to make the hardest mountain the penultimate climb, and then have an easier climb, possibly as an MTF to follow it. 2012 Giro stage 19 didn't work solely because they had Mortirolo->Stelvio the next day, and it was a much longer stage, so the riders didn't really bother to do much, thinking they could gain more on stage 20. The weakness of that stage, though, was the fact that the 'hardest' mountain was the last one, so no-one cared to do anything before (except TdG). On the contrary, the 2011 Giro stage 16 worked because it hard the hardest climb and hardest descent as climb 3/5, followed by another hard one and then a tricky but easier MTF. A combo I would like to see is Duran-Staulanza-Fedaia-Sella -> Selva - a.k.a. the 1998 stage in which Pantani gained 4 minutes. Field was tired by Caprile (start of Fedaia), Pantani went for it on the climb and then maintained it on the easier Sella and subsequent descent.

 

[Valv.Piti]

The 2 dolomite stages in 2012 were very good. There's really no point blaming the race design, it was all on the riders in my opinion. You can always look for minor things and come to the conclusion that it woulda been better, but you could basically give that '12 field any route and it would still have been the same tedious racing. Same goes for the '16 Tour.

 

[mikii4567]

Re:

The 2 dolomite stages in 2012 were very good. There's really no point blaming the race design, it was all on the riders in my opinion. You can always look for minor things and come to the conclusion that it woulda been better, but you could basically give that '12 field any route and it would still have been the same tedious racing. Same goes for the '16 Tour.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the 2012 stages were good, however looking at the race in general, they didn't really go that well together. Switch the order, though, and they would be fine. Had the last week been:
16: Caldes -> Stelvio (+Mortirolo)
17: some transitional stage
18: Treviso -> Pampeago
19: stage to Falzes (possibly with Erbe, though)
20: Falzes -> Cortina
it probably would've resulted in better racing. If someone feared the last ITT, and had 1-2 minutes to make up before then, they'd have to go long to Cortina, possibly on Duran or Staulanza. This in turn would generate more aggressive and enouraging racing that stage.

 

[Valv.Piti]

In theory, yes, but every theory goes out the window when you have a sorry bunch such as those riders.

 

[mikii4567]

^^ correct

 

[Tonton]

TOUR DE FRANCE
No Tour without my beloved Basque mountains.

YES!!! Very nice stage, with a hectic type of finish, Vino ftw if he survives the steep gradients. The best climbs in France are right there, no ifs, no buts. Climbers paradise. Salut a toi fauniera.

 

[52520Andrew]

The Dolomites are a brilliant region to chain together climbs. There is just so much you can do. It is harder to make a bad stage through there than to make a good stage