Race Design Thread

[Forever The Best]

EDIT: The intermediate time checks in stage 7 ITT was posted as intermediate sprint on the profile. Corrected them to time checks now. Speaking of time checks:
Giro d' Italia Stage 13 Pavia-Milano ITT 59,92 km
https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/120443

Flat as a pancake. The midgets should lose a lot. Though it has to be said that there are some technical parts in the last 20 km but there are still some pretty long flat parts.
Pavia:

Milano-Piazza Duomo:

 

[Forever The Best]

Where do you prefer to map?

La Flamme Rouge. If not, then Cronoescalada.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Letra is just pure awesomeness.
Yes, it's kinda sad that we haven't seen San Pellegrino in Alpe in the Giro since 2000.

Perhaps we will see it in 2020 as tribute to Casagrande's awesome ride that day

@bp92 What are the stats of San Mateo and Güican? And how far are La Uvita and San Mateo are from the finish?

 

[Gigs_98]

The new openrunner is a total disaster. Why are they doing that? Unusable, just like tracks4bikers before. And i was half through a really nice Giro...

I haven't found out yet how to make a waypoint between two already existing points. And somehow it's impossible to save a route but I guess thats only a bug I have and I doubt thats a problem which won't go away. Generally it is simply completely new and I hope that I'll get used to it. It's a bit sad that they don't use google maps anymore since that means no street view, but then again google maps is anything but a perfect program as well.

Edit: And the map isn't loading when I'm zooming which is right now already driving me crazy.

 

[Netserk]

Where do you prefer to map?

Cronoescalada is quite quick, so that's the default, but in some cases other sites can be helpful. The great thing with openrunner is the profile, especially for short routes or routes with smaller climbs. I miss mapping with the old bikeroutetoaster and tracks4bikers though. The former was particularly neat.

 

[fauniera]

It's a bit sad that they don't use google maps anymore since that means no street view, but then again google maps is anything but a perfect program as well.

Streetview is absolutely necessary for me, as i always check how usable the roads are. So no openrunner anymore for me. Except maybe importing files for the profiles. Also i don't get why the window has to be so tiny.

Trying to figure out flamme rouge and cronoescalada now. Fun, fun, fun.

 

[OlavEH]

Giro d'Italia: Stage 16: Bassano del Grappa - Passo Pordoi, 214 km

It's time to finish my third version of the Giro with the last six stages. The second rest day is finished and the riders have moved north to Bassano del Grappa. In my first two versions, the route never went through the Dolomites, but now it's time for classic Dolomite stage which is probably the toughest stage of the race. After leaving Bassano del Grappa, the first 35 km northwards is flat.

This changes after turning off the main road after 35 km and starting the climb to Cima di Campo. A almost 20 km long climb which is followed by a short descent and the climb to Passo del Brocon. A few flat kms at the top of Brocon before a 15 km descent to the small village of Canal San Bovo where the next climb shortly starts; to Passo Gobbera. This is a shorter climb, only 3.category, and the descent brings the riders to Mezzano, where they turn northeast on a wider and more frequently uses road in the Giro.

After a few kms of false flat, they reach Fiera di Primiero where the longest climb of the stage starts, to Passo di Rolle. The long is pretty long, but on good roads and fairly regular, around 6 % gradient for the most of the time. The top is reached at almost 2000 meters, and a short descent to Panveggio awaits. Here the fifth climb of the day starts, to Passo Valles. The descent from Valles is much longer, around 20 km, and is followed by a section false flat until Rocca Pietore where the legendary climb to Passo Fedaia starts.

The average gradient of Fedaia is about 7 %, but this don't show the whole picture. The last 5 km of the climb averages over 11 % and will probably be a very decisive point of this stage. Riders who gets tires here, could lose minutes in the last 20-25 kms of the stage. After climbing Fedaia, there is a 12 km descent to Canazei before the last 11 km to Passo Pordoi, which is Cima Coppi of this Giro. Pordoi is very centrally placed in the Dolomites and often used, but rarely as a MTF. The last time was in 2001 when Julio Perez Cuapio won the stage. That time it was also uses coupled with Fedaia. The length of this stage and the close to 5500 height meters of categorized climbs could make this an epic Giro stage.


Climbs:
52 km: Cima di Campo: 18,3 km, 5,7 %
75 km: Passo del Brocon: 11 km, 6,6 %
98 km: Passo Gobbera: 3,9 km, 6,4 %
130 km: Passo Rolle: 19,5 km, 6,1 %
143 km: Passo Valles: 6,4 km, 6,3 %
192 km: Passo Fedaia: 14,8 km, 7,1 %
214 km: Passo Pordoi: 11,1 km, 7,1 %

Profile:

Map:

 

[OlavEH]

Giro d'Italia: Stage 17: Cortina d'Ampezzo - Bolzano, 184 km

The queen stage to Pordoi is followed by a typical transfer, medium mountain stage looping around much of the Dolomites between two central towns in the mountainous region, Cortina and Bolzano. Starting in Cortina d'Ampezzo, the climbing starts immediately with the climb to Passo Tre Croce. Here there will probably be a lot of attempts to form a breakaway. Tre Croce is followed by another two climbs in the first third of the stage before descending from Monte Croce to Dobbiaco in Val Pusteria after about 70 km.

From here they continue westwards through the valley passing Brunico, before the routes takes a short detour to the small village of Terento, about 500 m above the valley floor. After descending the riders turns south into Valle Isarco and follows this the last 50 km to the stage finish in Bolzano. This will very likely be one of the stages most suited for breakaways since it's placed between to tough mountain stages, and the GC contenders will probably try to use as little energy as possible on this stage.

Climbs:
7 km: Passo Tre Croce: 7,1 km, 7,9 %
43 km: Passo San Antonio: 7,2 km, 8,7 %
58 km: Passo Monte Croce: 7,8 km, 4,9 %
118 km: Terento: 5,7 km, 4,9 %

Profile:

Map:

 

[LaFlorecita]

I personally use Flamme Rouge, I used to use Cronoescalada but got frustrated by some bugs in the editor, like getting an error when asking for the profile and then having to delete several steps. Also, and this may sound petty, but I used to follow them on twitter and they didn't come across as very likeable. For that same reason, I try to avoid PCS at all costs, although in their case the issue is that they're a bunch of twats, whereas the Cronoescalada folk just have a lot of opinions I do not agree with.
I like the Flamme Rouge editor. Their climb map with the climb info is very useful and I like that you can download the data onto the track you're working on. It's a very comprehensive database and you can easily add the climbs that are missing. The only downside I've found so far is that the profiles don't look as smooth as on Cronoescalada, because you can't change the level of detail. There's also no way of taking out the spikes caused by tunnels. I would like to see the climb data included in the profile and a way to raise or lower the location tags on the profile so they don't clutter. So, in other words, if you want fancy looking profiles, go for Cronoescalada, if you want a user-friendly editor, go for Flamme Rouge. I'd like both, but I had to choose and because I get frustrated easily by tech stuff I chose Flamme Rouge

 

[LaFlorecita]

@Olav, interesting to see the combo Passo Sant'Antonio - Passo di Monte Croce in your stage, I used the same combo for a stage I mapped two days ago!

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

I personally use Flamme Rouge, I used to use Cronoescalada but got frustrated by some bugs in the editor, like getting an error when asking for the profile and then having to delete several steps. Also, and this may sound petty, but I used to follow them on twitter and they didn't come across as very likeable. For that same reason, I try to avoid PCS at all costs, although in their case the issue is that they're a bunch of twats, whereas the Cronoescalada folk just have a lot of opinions I do not agree with.
I like the Flamme Rouge editor. Their climb map with the climb info is very useful and I like that you can download the data onto the track you're working on. It's a very comprehensive database and you can easily add the climbs that are missing. The only downside I've found so far is that the profiles don't look as smooth as on Cronoescalada, because you can't change the level of detail. There's also no way of taking out the spikes caused by tunnels. I would like to see the climb data included in the profile and a way to raise or lower the location tags on the profile so they don't clutter. So, in other words, if you want fancy looking profiles, go for Cronoescalada, if you want a user-friendly editor, go for Flamme Rouge. I'd like both, but I had to choose and because I get frustrated easily by tech stuff I chose Flamme Rouge

Can you elaborate this? Were they ignorant to the people who ask a question? Sth like that?
Cronoescalada's big advantage is the tunnels.
Since I mainly use Flamme Rouge, from what I remeber Cronoescalada has the roads closed on snow normally, right? While Flamme Rouge doesn't have a problem with snow and you can use these roads anytime you want.

 

[OlavEH]

Giro d'Italia: Stage 18: Bolzano - Madonna di Campiglio, 152 km

It's time for the third high MTF in this Giro, and this time is a more "standard" Giro stage without the extreme length or very difficult climbs. The stage starts in Bolzano and moves quickly southwest into the first climb, Passo di Mendola. The descent is long and gentle, and is followed by the climb to the small village of Andalo which hosted a stage finish in 2016. Like Mendola, there is also a long and gentle descent from Andalo. Just after 100 km are passed, the riders pass through Ponte Arche where the finale of this stage starts.

First they have to tackle Passo Durone, which is only a moderately difficult climb. After the descent, they just cross the valley floor to start the climb to Passo Daone, the main difficulty on this stage. If there is to be time gaps of importance on this stage, Daone has to be ridden aggressively. The climb isn't very long, only 8 km, but a average gradient of over 9 % makes it fairly difficult. After descending, there is a section of 10 km false flat before the categorized climb to the stage finish starts. On this section there could be a challenge to maintain any time gaps gained in the climb to or descent from Daone. The last part to the stage finish in the ski resort of Madonna di Campiglio is only moderately difficult without any very steep sections.

Climbs:
25 km: Passo di Mendola: 14 km, 6,9 %
72 km: Andalo: 13,1 km, 5,6 %
109 km: Passo Durone: 10,4 km, 5,8 %
125 km: Passo Daone: 8,2 km, 9,3 %
152 km: Madonna di Campligio: 11,8 km, 5,8 %

Profile:

Map:

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Can you elaborate this? Were they ignorant to the people who ask a question? Sth like that?
l.

nah, it's more that they are very opinionated on cycling subjects, they have very obvious likes and dislikes for certain riders, they've posted some mean-spirited comments on several occasions. Which is fine, all of us fans have opinions, but since they use their website's name as their handle, you'd think they could be more nuanced.
Nothing extremely shocking, but that combined with some frustrations with the editor made me ditch Cronoescalada (even though I had just started posting a Giro here ), some months ago I found the Flamme Rouge editor and I really like it, also the people behind it seem friendly enough.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Can you elaborate this? Were they ignorant to the people who ask a question? Sth like that?
l.

nah, it's more that they are very opinionated on cycling subjects, they have very obvious likes and dislikes for certain riders, they've posted some mean-spirited comments on several occasions. Which is fine, all of us fans have opinions, but since they use their website's name as their handle, you'd think they could be more nuanced.
Nothing extremely shocking, but that combined with some frustrations with the editor made me ditch Cronoescalada (even though I had just started posting a Giro here ), some months ago I found the Flamme Rouge editor and I really like it, also the people behind it seem friendly enough.

The certain rider being Contador?
Anyways, just joking. Also I was reading some of Cronoescaladas posts on twitter around TDF 2016 and they were criticizing Quintana rightly.
The editor of flamme rouge is much easier to work with in my opinion. The people behind flamme rouge are emmea90 and Pigna (andrepg). Trustable people. Cronoescalada people are trustable as well but flamme rouge is easier and prevents the snow from cancelling the mountain passes in stages people make.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Yes Contador, but also for example Nibali and as you say Quintana
And they are twitter buddies with the biggest bully in the online cycling community, Ciclismo2005!

You're right about the snow blocking high passes. But I'm wondering, did anyone else experience the issue when trying to draw the profile and having to delete the last few points, or was it just me? Maybe they fixed it. It was my biggest frustration.

 

[OlavEH]

Giro d'Italia: Stage 19: Rovereto - Brescia, 177 km

A medium mountain stage which could possibly be more crucial than first anticipated. The stage starts in Rovereto, and the route takes the riders westwards just north of Lago di Garda. The first 25 km is flat before an uncategorized to Molina di Ledro. The next 30 kms are flat and downhill before passing through Storo. Instead of continuing along the main road to Bagolino, the climb the short and very steep climb to Riccomassimo above the valley floor. This is followed by 6-7 km of flat and gentle downhill before starting the climb to Passo del Maniva.

The combination of these two climbs could be place to start an very early attack on Dumoulin-like riders if the typical mountain men needs to gain some time. The steepness of these climbs will definitely be an advantage for the lightest of the GC contenders. The next part of the stage is easier, a long descent from Maniva followed by a medium mountain terrain with one categorized and one uncategorized climb in the next 55 kms.

The riders are then approaching Brescia, but have one last challenge before stage finish in the city centre, namely the very steep Monte Maddalena just east of Brescia. The climb is only 5 kms long, but almost 11 % average gradient and on very narrow roads. An early meltdown on Maddalena could mean a significant time loss due to the sheer steepness of the climb. The descent is fortunately easier, especially because the roads are much wider, and from the top of Maddalena it's about 12 km to the stage finish.

Climbs
66 km: Riccomassimo: 4,5 km, 9,9 %
83 km: Passo del Maniva: 11,2 km, 8,3 %
114 km: Passo Termine: 7,9 km, 5,9 %
165 km: Monte Maddalena: 5,3 km, 10,9 %

Profile:

Map:

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Yes Contador, but also for example Nibali and as you say Quintana
And they are twitter buddies with the biggest bully in the online cycling community, Ciclismo2005!

You're right about the snow blocking high passes. But I'm wondering, did anyone else experience the issue when trying to draw the profile and having to delete the last few points, or was it just me? Maybe they fixed it. It was my biggest frustration.

Ah, understood it about Cronoescalada.
A user in this thread was also experiencing the snow issue a few months ago on cronoescalada.
Also what did Ciclismo2005 do to be considered as bullying? Genuine question. (I look at those accounts rarely since they are Spanish but I thought he was a knowledgeable account from what I heard.)

@OlavEH Monte Maddalena, a nice choice. It will be climbed 3 times in the last stage of my Giro.

 

[bp92]

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 13: Soatá - Aquitania, 155km

Climbs: Santa Rosa (HC), Canuto (cat. 3), Cerinza (cat.3), El Crucero (cat.1)

We continue with a short-ish mountain stage, still in eastern Boyacá. The stage starts in Soatá, then takes on most of the first half of Stage 12 backwards. Climbing starts off very early, with the very long and difficult climb up Páramo de Santa Rosa, categorized HC because of its sheer length, with slopes staying around 4-7% throughout (the average gradient is brought down by the descending sections in the first third of the climb).

After reaching the top of Santa Rosa riders climb a little bit more to reach Canuto, then descend and climb Cerinza from the north before arriving back to Duitama. After Duitama the road finally deviated from the stage 12 route, as riders head towards Sogamoso and the final climb of the stage, the cat.1 ascent to El Crucero. The climb's fairly shallow for the most part, with a fairly difficult 4km section at a constant 7%, at around 3000m altitude (riders climb until km 13,5 in the profile below).

After the summit there's a very short descent, which leads us to the shore of the Laguna de Tota, Colombia's largest lake, and an important religious center for the Muisca culture. The route goes around the northeastern shore of the lake, taking on a short uncategorized ascent, shortly before finishing in Aquitania, to the east of the lake. The winner will probably come from a breakaway at the massive HC climb early on the stage; GC contenders have a chance to make a statement in the final climb, but will likely look to recover after the Güicán stage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

lolzers, that Güican stage is almost identical to the final stage of one of my Vueltas a Colombia, only mine ended at El Cocuy instead.

 

[bp92]

@LS: The Uvita-San Mateo-Cocuy/Güicán chain is pretty cool... but unfortunately there's only one paved way in as far as I know, so there's not that much stage variety available...
No idea on how to enlarge the Cronoestalada map, unfortunately. I agree that it would be very useful.

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 14: Nobsa - Curití, 244km

Climbs: Alto Blanco (cat.2), Guapatá (cat.3), Curití (cat.3).

The second weekend starts with the longest stage of the entire race, as we finally descend from the Altiplano for good. The stage starts in Nobsa, then heads south towards Tunja. The route will then take a detour through Cómbita, birthplace of Nairo Quintana, before taking on the first climb of the stage, Alto Blanco.
After a very long descent we enter a long hilly section, with the cat.3 Guapatá as the hardest single climb along the way, before reaching San Gil, after which they face the final climb up to Curití. The final climb starts off steep, but quickly levels off into a very gradual ascent, ending 3km away from the finish line.
Overall this stage should go to a breakaway; the stage's sheer length, and the difficult terrain throughout the stage (lack of proper climbs notwithstanding) means it will be very hard to chase said break properly, particularly if GC contenders want to take it easy. It's not likely that they will want to try anything too crazy, even in the final climb, but there's always the chance someone ends up dropping off the pace at the end of such a long stage, particularly if the pace turns out high.

 

[bp92]

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 15: San Gil - Zapatoca, 160km

Climbs: Chiflas (cat.2), Los Curos (cat.2), Ruitoque (cat.3), Zapatoca (HC).

The second week ends with a short-ish mountain stage. Starting in San Gil, riders take on the final climb of Stage 14 once more, staying on the main road this time all the way to the cat.2 Alto de Chiflas, over the southern wall of the Cañón del Chicamocha. They take the long descent into the river, before climbing back up the opposite side. Afterwards there's a mostly-flat stretch, with the cat.3 Ruitoque halfway through, followed by a very steep and technical descent into the Suárez river, with plenty of hairpins along the way.
The descent leaves us at the foot of the final climb: the long and fairly steep ascent to Zapatoca.

The hardest slopes come early on the climb, with 4km at around 9%, followed by more gradual slopes at around 7%, except for a 700m stretch above 11% 4km before the summit. Rather importantly, the stage doesn't quite end at the summit; there's still 9km worth of ascending false flat left before the finish at the town of Zapatoca proper. Climbers in contention for the GC will likely have this stage marked down, with the final climb being perfect for a strong attack. An attack from the beginning of the climb will probably be the most effective way to gain an advantage, given the fact that they will need a big gap so that their opponents don't catch up afterwards.

REST DAY: Bucaramanga, transfer to Valledupar.

 

[OlavEH]

Giro d'Italia: Stage 20: Brescia - Caspano, 193 km

The second last stage and the last mountain stage of this Giro. The stage is in theory the toughest in this Giro alongside the Pordoi stage. After starting in Brescia, the route moves northwest just south of Lago di Iseo. At the west side of Iseo, the climb to Colle San Fermo starts after about 37 km. This is immediately succeeded by Colle del Gallo, used in Il Lombardia a few times the last years. This time it's an early warm-up for what's about to come later in the stage-

After descending from Gallo, there in an almost 20 km long false flat leading into the next climb, Colle Zambla. The following descent leads the riders to San Pellegrino Terme where they turn right and heads north towards Olmo Al Brembo, where the main difficulty of the stage starts, the climb to Passo San Marco. A monster of a climb, close to Stelvio, Fauniera and on par with Gavia in difficulty, it's far to rarely used in the Giro. It has been included only one time in the last 30 years.

This time, they are climbing the south side, which is almost 20 km and over 7 % average gradient, and where the last 12 km averages over 8,5 %. An early attack here could gain a considerable amount of time. A very long descent follows, before they cross the valley floor through Morbegno and starts the last climb to the stage finish in Caspano, a small village in the hills above Morbegno. When I decided to use Passo San Marco as a decisive climb, I first looked at options like Pescagello and Foppolo as stage finish, but felt that Caspano would be a better option since it's closer to the foot of San Marco and also not too long, making San Marco more decisive if the riders need to attack and gain much time. It's somewhat in the same category as the Mortirolo/Aprica and the Finestre/Setriere combo.

Climbs:
47 km: Colle San Fermo: 10,2 km, 7,3 %
64 km: Colle del Gallo: 6,2 km, 6,7 %
99 km: Colle di Zambla: 11,4 km, 6,4 %
157 km: Passo San Marco: 19,5 km, 7,4 %
193 km: Caspano: 10,2 km, 6,3 %

Profile:

Map:

 

[OlavEH]

Giro d'Italia: Stage 21: Sondrio - Milano, 168 km

Last stage and it's a traditional sprinter's stage to Milano. Starting in Sondrio in Valtellina, the route takes the riders west. After about 40 km they reach the east side of Lago di Como and moves south along the shore of the lake. At Bellano they leave the shore and starts the only climb of the stage, to Taceno, a route often used in Il Lombardia. After the descent to Lecco, the final 75 km is completely flat, finishing with 4 laps around Parco Sempione in central part of Milano.

Climbs:
63 km: Taceno: 5,6 km, 4,9 %

Profile:

Map:

 

[OlavEH]

Giro d'Italia, version 3: Summary and library post

Stage 1: Torino - Torino, 21 km ITT
Stage 2: Torino-Imperia, 195 km
Stage 3: Imperia - Monte Beigua, 163 km
Stage 4: Genova - La Spezia, 162 km
Stage 5: La Spezia - Pisa, 208 km
Stage 6: Pisa - Grosseto, 200 km
Stage 7: Grosseto - Abbadia San Salvatore, 148 km
Stage 8: Chianciano Terme - Terni, 188 km
Stage 9: Terni-Palestrina 203 km
Stage 10: Termoli - Pescara, 190 km
Stage 11: Pescara - L'Aquila, 196 km
Stage 12: Avezzano - Ascoli, 225 km
Stage 13: Ascoli - Fano, 200 km
Stage 14: Pesaro - San Marino, 214 km
Stage 15: Padova - Padova, 60 km ITT
Stage 16: Bassano del Grappa - Passo Pordoi, 214 km
Stage 17: Cortina d'Ampezzo - Bolzano, 184 km
Stage 18: Bolzano - Madonna di Campiglio, 152 km
Stage 19: Rovereto - Brescia, 177 km
Stage 20: Brescia - Caspano, 193 km
Stage 21: Sondrio - Milano, 168 km

Total: 3661 km
Cima Coppi: Passo Pordoi: 2239 m

4 High MTF (Monte Beigua, Passo Pordoi, Madonna di Campiglio, Caspano)
2 Medium MTF (L'Aquila, San Marino)
2 descent finishes (Abbadia San Salvatore from Monte Amiata, Ascoli from San Giancomo)
2 ITT, total 81 km
5 hilly/medium mountain stages
6 flat/mostly flat stages

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

You're right about the snow blocking high passes. But I'm wondering, did anyone else experience the issue when trying to draw the profile and having to delete the last few points, or was it just me? Maybe they fixed it. It was my biggest frustration.

Yeah, a couple of times. The software doesn't like more than three points at once to map. It happened to me a couple of days ago so I just used Flamme Rouge instead. I find cronoescalada easier and quicker to use personally, but it might just be habit. Flamme Rouge has the bonus of organising races into 'tours' and the maps look proper fancy. It also gives the whole Tour map, and you can delete and change points easily. In truth, it is probably easier to use but I just find cronoescalada so very quick. Also, the profiles on flamme rouge are a but too detailed for my liking. They tend to try to portray every single rise and fall, while the cronoescalada ones are just a bit smoother and cleaner.