Race Design Thread

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

You're right about the snow blocking high passes. But I'm wondering, did anyone else experience the issue when trying to draw the profile and having to delete the last few points, or was it just me? Maybe they fixed it. It was my biggest frustration.

Yeah, a couple of times. The software doesn't like more than three points at once to map. It happened to me a couple of days ago so I just used Flamme Rouge instead. I find cronoescalada easier and quicker to use personally, but it might just be habit. Flamme Rouge has the bonus of organising races into 'tours' and the maps look proper fancy. It also gives the whole Tour map, and you can delete and change points easily. In truth, it is probably easier to use but I just find cronoescalada so very quick. Also, the profiles on flamme rouge are a but too detailed for my liking. They tend to try to portray every single rise and fall, while the cronoescalada ones are just a bit smoother and cleaner.

Agree with you on the profiles. And I also like the "overall plain" for a race, I got really exited when I found that feature I don't remember if it was possible to drag existing points to change the route in cronoescalada.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Re:

Giro d'Italia, version 3: Summary and library post

Stage 1: Torino - Torino, 21 km ITT
Stage 2: Torino-Imperia, 195 km
Stage 3: Imperia - Monte Beigua, 163 km
Stage 4: Genova - La Spezia, 162 km
Stage 5: La Spezia - Pisa, 208 km
Stage 6: Pisa - Grosseto, 200 km
Stage 7: Grosseto - Abbadia San Salvatore, 148 km
Stage 8: Chianciano Terme - Terni, 188 km
Stage 9: Terni-Palestrina 203 km
Stage 10: Termoli - Pescara, 190 km
Stage 11: Pescara - L'Aquila, 196 km
Stage 12: Avezzano - Ascoli, 225 km
Stage 13: Ascoli - Fano, 200 km
Stage 14: Pesaro - San Marino, 214 km
Stage 16: Bassano del Grappa - Passo Pordoi, 214 km
Stage 15: Padova - Padova, 60 km ITT
Stage 17: Cortina d'Ampezzo - Bolzano, 184 km
Stage 18: Bolzano - Madonna di Campiglio, 152 km
Stage 19: Rovereto - Brescia, 177 km
Stage 20: Brescia - Caspano, 193 km
Stage 21: Sondrio - Milano, 168 km

Total: 3661 km
Cima Coppi: Passo Pordoi: 2239 m

4 High MTF (Monte Beigua, Passo Pordoi, Madonna di Campiglio, Caspano)
2 Medium MTF (L'Aquila, San Marino)
2 descent finishes (Abbadia San Salvatore from Monte Amiata, Ascoli from San Giancomo)
2 ITT, total 81 km
5 hilly/medium mountain stages
6 flat/mostly flat stages

Thank You.

Very good idea to include San Marco and Maddalena in the last days. Like that a lot, both are really underused.

 

[mikii4567]

@OlavEH: great Giro, in particular I loved your San Marino & Dolomite stages
@Forever the Best: that Monte Cimone stage... <3

Meanwhile, here I go with my second Grand Tour
Tour de France

Like with my Giro, I've tried to be realistic with this. No stages leading on goat paths, we're always within UCI length rules and there's nothing out of the ordinary. But what there is is a challenging race, that - basically - is a response to what ASO isn't doing right now, and should. I feel like my Giro was a better race, though I prefer the opening week of this one, but meh. Feel free to criticise and laugh, as always .

The Grand Départ is in the Seine-Maritime department, and we're going clockwise, so Alps first, then Pyrenees.

Stage 1: Fécamp -> Dieppe
135km

Flat stage

Personally, I have nothing against starting GTs with a short, flat stage, assuming that it doesn't drag oooon and oooon - this year's Giro stage 1 is a prime example of that. In my Tour, we're sticking to 135 kilometres, which will mostly be raced along the coast, with the riders slightly deviating from it in the second part.

The start is in Fécamp, which I've chosen for historical reasons - it's an example of a place where you can still see the Atlantic Wall, built by the Nazis during World War II for defence. Nothing really to be proud of, but here we go (oh, and by the way, I'm not a historian, so don't expect too many stories along these lines). From then, it's a ride northwest, before encountering some rolling terrain after the feed zone.

Meanwhile, the line will be drawn in Dieppe, a town known for its scallops that has been around for almost 1000 years. It should see a sprinters' finish, though the run-in is difficult - there are no less than six turns on the final 3 kilometres, leading to a coastal boulevard. Today is therefore a very important stage for the fastest riders, who [SPOILER ALERT] will not really be able to keep yellow for that long.

Start: Fécamp, Place Selle
Finish: Dieppe, Boulevard de Verdun
Intermediate sprints: Saint-Valery-en-Caux, Les Grandes-Ventes
Feed zone: Hautot-sur-Mer
Climbs:
Côte de Conteville (4th Category, 71 m, 1.5 Km at 4.4%, Km 31.1)
Côte de Saint-Vaast-d'Équiqueville (4th Category, 169 m, 3.1 Km at 4.0%, Km 102.2).

Oh, and as you can see, I've reintroduced the concept of two intermediate sprints a day. They will now give 10-6-4-2-1 to the points classification each.

 

[bp92]

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 16: Valledupar - Manaure, 36km (ITT)

Climbs: Balcón del Cesar (cat.2)

The third week takes us into the Caribbean region of Colombia. Somewhat unusual this late in the race, given that the terrain is mostly flat in the area, but riders will start heading back south soon.
Stage 16 is a mixed time trial, with a summit finish at the small town of Manaure (also known as Balcón del Cesar), near the Colombia-Venezuela border. The stage starts with 19 pan-flat kms between Valledupar and Robles, including a perfectly straight 10km section right after exiting Valledupar. After Robles the gradient starts increasing slowly, with a lengthy false flat section before the climbing proper begins. The climb isn't too steep, though, with its hardest section being 4 kms near the end at aroung 6%. Enough to help the climbers get an advantage against the specialists in the final kms of the stage, which should only offset the lead they gain earlier.
This stage will likely be decisive for the GC, being long enough for sizable gaps to form between TTers and non-TTers despite the climbing. Nobody wants to have a bad day here, but strength will be limited this far into the race (furthermore given the often hot and humid weather in northern Colombia).

 

[bp92]

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 17: Bosconia - La Cansona (Montes de María), 176km

Climbs: La Cansona (cat.2).

Next comes a very Unipublic-style stage, with a summit finish in the Montes de María region, one of the hardest-hit by the Colombian armed conflict. The final climb was first used in the 2016 edition of the Vuelta a Colombia, and while it's pretty short it has some fairly steep sections at the middle and towards the end of the ascent. Enough for good puncheurs among the GC contenders to try and shave a couple seconds off their opponents. The rest of the stage is pretty much pan-flat for the most part, but terrain gets very hilly in the approach to the final climb.

 

[bp92]

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 18: Sincelejo - Caucasia, 186km

Climbs: None.

We now have a last flat stage before entering the decisive mountain stages. No climbs along the way, so any sprinter that managed to survive the rest of the race will have their last hurrah here. GC contenders will want to save their energy, particularly given the high temperatures of the area, but sprinter teams will want to prevent breakaways from getting away with the stage. This could result in either a fairly fast-paced stage or in a massive sprinter-led breakaway as GC contenders reach the finish at a more leisurely pace. Either way, action among GC contenders is unlikely.

 

[fauniera]

Sorry to bother you, but maybe someone can give a brief explanation about how to edit a track at cronoescalada or flamme rouge? I'm unable to figure it out unfortunately. I want to change the route, which probably means changing waypoints, but how?

 

[bp92]

I actually don't!
(never really got the hang of cronoescalada's editor)

I typically draw my stages in bikehike.co.uk, then add elevation using the gpsvisualizer.com "Look up elevations" tool (bikehike's inteface is pretty nice for drawing the stage route itself, but elevation data doesn't load properly most of the time), then upload the resulting gpx file in Cronoescalada and edit the profile. Inefficient as hell, I know, but it works for me .

Overall I'd say just use your favorite route-drawing tool, then download the route's gpx and upload the result into Cronoescalada for the pretty profile.

 

[bp92]

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 19: Caucasia - Santa Rosa de Osos, 208km

Climbs: Ventanas (HC), Mina Vieja (2), Llanos del Cuiva (2).

Now we get back into the mountains for the deciding stretch of the race, and we do so with a classic Vuelta a Colombia stage, between Caucasia and Santa Rosa de Osos.
The first flat of the stage is... well, pan-flat. No climbs at all, untill we reach the foot of the first and hardest climb of the stage: the colossal Alto de Ventanas. With 32km at 5,4%, it superficially looks like the typical Colombian climb (insanely long but shallow), but the average gradient is brought down by the false flat section halfway through.

The first third of the climb is fairly gradual, averaging about 6%, and is followed by the aforementioned false flat at the middle. The final third of the climb is the hardest, containing a 6km section averaging over 8%. If anyone wants to turn the race on its head, a strong attack towards the end of Ventanas could do the trick.
The summit of Ventanas is still pretty far from the end of the stage, at km 139 on a 208km stage, so it's still a very risky move (it may well be necessary if the time gaps are long). There's no descent after Ventanas, though; instead, riders will have two more cat.2 climbs (the short Mina Vieja and the long but very shallow Llanos del Cuiva) at over 2000m altitude, with little flat terrain overall before the finish line in Santa Rosa. A very tough stage, with chances for another shake-up for the GC, be it because of attacks or because of key riders falling off the pace.

 

[bp92]

Vuelta a Colombia Stage 20: Girardota - Cerro Chapecoense, 155km

Climbs: La China (HC), El Escobero (HC), El Escobero (HC), Cerro Chapecoense (2)

We've reached Medellín, Colombia's second largest city. Medellín also happens to be wedged inside a very steep valley, and the roads up either side of it are... well... steep.
The climbs to the east and west of Medellín wouldn't be out of place in the French Alps, or in Italy's Dolomites... except that, instead of being in relatively isolated locations, these are right next to a metropolitan area with a population of almost 4 million.
The final mountain stage of this Vuelta starts off in Girardota, then heads south into Bello (the northernmost city in Medellín's metropolitan area), before heading up the Aburrá valley's western wall for the first climb of the stage: the extremely steep Loma de La China.

As of yet unused in the Vuelta a Colombia (most of the famous Medellín climbs are to the east of the valley), this climb is slightly harder than the infamous Loma del Escobero (the most (in)famous of the aforementioned eastern Medellín climbs), and only slightly easier than the likes of Mortirolo, in Italy. Except for the fact that tle La China summit is located at over 2500m above sea level.
Speaking of Escobero...

After La China, riders climb down from the western side of the valley... then climb up the eastern side through Loma del Escobero. One of the three most famous Colombian climbs (alongside La Línea and Letras), it's known for being the shorter and steeper of the three, with several long sections well above 12%. And they will actually have to descend back down to the city, then climb El Escobero a second time. Either of the three wall-like climbs will give climbers the chance to shine over weaker uphill riders, particularly for punchier climbers that may not have been able to use the shallower climbs throughout the Vuelta.
After the second pass through Escobero riders don't descend back again, but instead descend to the east, taking on 20km of hilly terrain before the final climb.

The climb up the slopes of Cerro Gordo, along the road to La Unión, is fairly shallow, and not particularly difficult. The site became notorious in late 2016, when a charter plane carrying brazilian football (soccer) team Chapecoense into Medellín for the Copa Sudamericana final crashed into the mountain after running out of fuel, killing most of the team's players. The mountain, officialy renamed Cerro Chapecoense in homage to the team, will host the final summit finish of the race. It's not difficult enough to create gaps among the climbers, so they will have to make their move in the brutal slopes of El Escobero.

 

[lemon cheese cake]

Sorry to bother you, but maybe someone can give a brief explanation about how to edit a track at cronoescalada or flamme rouge? I'm unable to figure it out unfortunately. I want to change the route, which probably means changing waypoints, but how?

On Flamme Rouge, to add waypoints, you just click on the area of route that you want to change. Then that adds the waypoint. Then drag the waypoint to where you want it. To delete a waypoint, right click it.
When adding intermediates, either click on the profile where you want it, or click on the route, as if you were adding a waypoint. If you want something other than a sprint, then click the waypoint to get a KOM, Timing point, Feed zone, Cobbles/Gravel sector or place. Once again, this can be dragged along the route and deleted by right clicking.

 

[Brullnux]

Sorry to bother you, but maybe someone can give a brief explanation about how to edit a track at cronoescalada or flamme rouge? I'm unable to figure it out unfortunately. I want to change the route, which probably means changing waypoints, but how?

On flamme rouge, the post above is very good.

For cronoescalada, I'm fairly certain you can't. Unless I've missed a trick. You just have to delete points, or a whole route, if you want to make any changes.

 

[fauniera]

Thanks guys. I'll try.

Edit: Openrunner seems to go back to the old version. Thank God!

 

[mikii4567]

Re:

Tour de France
Stage 2: Rouen -> Rouen
11km

Individual time trial

The second stage is a relatively short ITT, held within the inner city and outskirts of Rouen, the capital of Normandy. It's rich in history, but basically it was also the seat of the Exchequer of the region during the Middle Ages and now has a population of over 110,000.

It's quite an easy route, with not that many turns and with multiple straight sections that should allow the specialists to take over the top spots the GC, and one of them will, most likely, become the next holder of yellow.

Start: Rouen, Place du Général de Gaulle
Finish: Rouen, Quoi Cavelier de la Salle
Time-check: Déville-lès-Rouen

 

[mikii4567]

Re:

Tour de France
Stage 3: Le Havre -> Chartres
182km

Flat stage

Stage 3 is when the riders begin their journey through L'Hexagone, and is another opportunity for the sprinters. They will begin today's riding in Le Havre, the huge port city that has the second largest docking facilities in the entire country, and will cross the Pont de Normandie to leave the Seine-Maritime, after which they face the only climb of the day, the Côte de Honfleur.

From then on, it's generally flat all the way until the end, through the intermediate sprints in Bernay and Verneuil-sur-Avre. The finish will be in Chartres, known for its cathedral that is listed on the list of UNESCO World Heritage Sites, that is near the Eure river. Once again, the run-in isn't particularly pleasant - I'm using the same location as the 2012 TDF - but nonetheless it should be the fast men who prevail. They won't have THAT many opportunities during the rest of the race, so they need to make it count.

Start: Le Havre, Avenue Foch
Finish: Chartres, Avenue Jean Mernoz
Intermediate sprints: Bernay, Verneuil-sur-Avre
Feed zone: Le Fidelaire
Climbs:
Côte de Honfleur (4th Category, 102 m, 1.3 Km at 7.0%, Km 14.1)

 

[May0maniac]

I still have to finish my Tour of Colorado
Tour of Colorado stage 6: Granby - Laporte; 231.4km

After the ITT we get the longest stage of my Tour of Colorado, it's over 231km long.
The stage starts in Granby and the first 129km don't feature any real climbs, a bit of 3-4% steep rolling terrain, but nothing that you'd call a categorized climb. Still, we never go below 2400m of elevation, maybe that could play a role.
After that the first categorized climb of the day starts, Cameron Pass, 7.1km at 4.1%, nothing hard, but it's just the first climb of the day and a nice warm-up.

The following descent is not steep or technical, but 20km long, after that we have around 42km of slightly downhill false flat, it's not a real descent.
After that we finall get the first steeper climb of the day. it's Stove Prairie Rd, 3.9km at 7.9%, that's a good cat. 2 climb.

After the climb we have 3.9km of rolling terrain, the the next climb starts, Rist Canyon Rd, 1.9km at 9.7%, that's a short but rather steep climb.

The climb tops with 20km to go, but only the final 4km are (slightly downhill) false flat, before that we have a lond descent. It's not a technical one, but it's still a long descent.
The stage ends in Laporte, a small town near Fort Collins.
This stage could be pretty interesting, it's a hilly +230km stage right after the ITT, so it's gonna be pretty hard and some riders could have a bad day. The final 2 climbs are a perfect place to attack for the climbers, if they have a teammate in the breakaway to support them on the descent they could gain a lot of time. You can also use your team to set a really high pace on Stove Prairie Rd, so that everyone will be tired when you attack on the final climb.
You also have to remember that this is the first stage that features steeper climbs, so now different riders, mostly the climbers will be eager to attack on a terrain that suits them more. Until now the race was perfect for a TT specialist who can climb really well on tempogrinders at high altitude, Rohan Dennis would be a good example, but now riders with a different skillset will get their chance to shine.
To sum things up, it should be an interesting stage to watch.

 

[Forever The Best]

I have to say that my Giro was already finished before I posted the first stages but since I am a bit busy no stages came from me yesterday and no stage will come today. I will try to post 2-3 stages tomorrow.

 

[Forever The Best]

Strangely enough I can see bp92's stages till the TT and all of Olav's stages.
That Zapatero finish is similar to Vegarada-Riopinos, a false flat after a tough climb. I can also see your Güican stage which looks great.
@Mayo 230 km and a hilly stage is good but not sure if the final 2 climhs will bring action cause the stage looks pretty easy. But then again Contador exploded the race on Col de Manse in the 16th stage of TDF 2011 which looked like a very easy stage on paper for GC contenders.

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

Strangely enough I can see bp92's stages till the TT and all of Olav's stages.
That Zapatero finish is similar to Vegarada-Riopinos, a false flat after a tough climb. I can also see your Güican stage which looks great.
@Mayo 230 km and a hilly stage is good but not sure if the final 2 climhs will bring action cause the stage looks pretty easy. But then again Contador exploded the race on Col de Manse in the 16th stage of TDF 2011 which looked like a very easy stage on paper for GC contenders.

Yes, it's not the hardest stage, but the fact that it's long and comes right after the 26.6km long ITT could change things up and frankly there aren't any climbs that you could use earlier on that stage.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Strangely enough I can see bp92's stages till the TT and all of Olav's stages.
That Zapatero finish is similar to Vegarada-Riopinos, a false flat after a tough climb. I can also see your Güican stage which looks great.
@Mayo 230 km and a hilly stage is good but not sure if the final 2 climhs will bring action cause the stage looks pretty easy. But then again Contador exploded the race on Col de Manse in the 16th stage of TDF 2011 which looked like a very easy stage on paper for GC contenders.

Yes, it's not the hardest stage, but the fact that it's long and comes right after the 26.6km long ITT could change things up and frankly there aren't any climbs that you could use earlier on that stage.

Ah, since there is a state park and national park there are only a few usable roads, so yeah it is understandable that there aren't any climbs you can use beforehand. Also the altitude should be factor, with the stage being around 2000m all the time. The stage can be harder than expected.

 

[jsem94]

Damn that Vuelta a Colombia looks killer.

 

[mikii4567]

Re: Re:

Tour de France
Stage 4: Neuville-aux-Boix -> Montbard
214km

Hilly stage

The first day where there is some climbing aspect, it's a hilly stage with a challenging conclusion and a HTF. Perhaps something for the breakaway, given that it's only the last 10 or so kilometres that actually pose a challenge (before then it's not too tricky), but nonetheless it'd be interesting to see how it pans out.

We start in Neuville-aux-Bois, a commune of over 4,000 citizens that has never hosted a Tour de France stage, probably for some obvious reasons. The riders will head south-east-east basically all day long, passing through the intermediate sprints in Montargis and Auxerre, before hitting that lumpy conclusion with two categorised climbs. The Côte de Combe Chante-Moult, the first cat. 3 climb of the race is there to serve as a dragging introduction before the final road up the Rue Rostand. The line is in front of the Collège Louis Pasteur, and some traffic islands will need to be removed to make way for it .

Oh, and Montbard. Another city never visited by La Grande Boucle, it's a small industrial commune that is partly built in a valley, partly on a hill. Hence why it's an uphill drag to finish it all off.

Start: Neuville-aux-Bois, Rue Girard
Finish: Montbard, Rue Jean Rostand
Intermediate sprints: Montargis, Auxerre
Feed zone: Senan
Climbs:
Côte de Combe Chante-Moult (3rd Category, 383 m, 2.5 Km at 6.5%, Km 207.2)
Côte de la Rue Rostand (4th Category, 305 m, 1.3 Km at 7.4%, finish).

 

[mikii4567]

Re: Re:

Tour de France
Stage 5: Beaune -> Villefranche-sur-Saone
222km

Medium-mountain stage

The first medium-mountain stage, and potentially a first opportunity to lose time, if we don't include the ITT. Of course this still isn't very difficult, but there are five cat. 2 climbs on the route, all of which have an average of (more or less) 6% and are a few kilometres long, so who knows.

After the start in Beaune, the wine capital of Burgundy that has never actually hosted the Tour, the riders face a long stretch of flat, with only a cat. 3 challenge about halfway through. Then, though, they hit the north-east of the Massif Central - the Beaujolais. Like I said, five climbs, with the first ascent, the Col de la Croix Rosier probably being the hardest. The final climb, the Col de la Croix Montmain, comes with 22 kilometres to go, before the finish in Villefranche-sur-Saone, the capital of the Beaujolais, known for its wine production.

Not necessarily too difficult, but could cause some differences (though still unlikely). Oh, and don't forget, its 222 kilometres, so it may have a knock on effect on some subsequent stages.

Start: Beaune, Boulevard Jean Ferry
Finish: Villefranche-sur-Saone, Boulevard Jean Jaurès
Intermediate sprints: Taizé, Beaujeu
Feed zone: Les Laurents
Climbs:
Côte de Les Gières (3rd Category, 661 m, 5.1 Km at 4.7%, Km 106.8)
Col de la Croix Rosier (2nd Category, 721 m, 5.2 Km at 7.8%, Km 142.8)
Col de la Croix Marchampt (2nd Category, 688 m, 6.3 Km at 5.2%, Km 154.9)
Col de la Casse Froide (2nd Category, 740 m, 4.2 Km at 6.6%, Km 165.9)
Côte des Ferriers (2nd Category, 720 m, 4.7 Km at 6.3%, Km 176.3)
Col de la Croix Montmain (2nd Category, 737 m, 4.8 Km at 6.4%, Km 200.3).

 

[LaFlorecita]

That's a great design for a medium mountain stage. Very tough!

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

Strangely enough I can see bp92's stages till the TT and all of Olav's stages.
That Zapatero finish is similar to Vegarada-Riopinos, a false flat after a tough climb. I can also see your Güican stage which looks great.
@Mayo 230 km and a hilly stage is good but not sure if the final 2 climhs will bring action cause the stage looks pretty easy. But then again Contador exploded the race on Col de Manse in the 16th stage of TDF 2011 which looked like a very easy stage on paper for GC contenders.

Yes, it's not the hardest stage, but the fact that it's long and comes right after the 26.6km long ITT could change things up and frankly there aren't any climbs that you could use earlier on that stage.

Ah, since there is a state park and national park there are only a few usable roads, so yeah it is understandable that there aren't any climbs you can use beforehand. Also the altitude should be factor, with the stage being around 2000m all the time. The stage can be harder than expected.

Well, you could start the stage near Grand lake, climb the western side of Trail Ridge Road, then Rist Canyon Rd from South (the steep final 2km are still the same) the first time, then westwards on the Big Thompson Rd after the descent before the final Stove Prairie Rd-Rist Canyon Rd combination, but I already used the other side of Trail Ridge road in this version of my Tour of Colorado (and the western side in my first version), so I didn't want to do that.
The stage would feature over 3100m of altitude gain look like this: