Random Rider/Team Thread

[Big Doopie]

Cyclingnews headline: "Scarponi stays in podium hunt at Giro d’Italia"



He only has to overtake Santambrogio (who has his own followers on this thread) and Uran (see Sky thread). Then to get into top place he only has to beat out Evans and Nibali, who have their own links to Ferrari.

Pro cycling is in a wonderful place. Much cleaner, moving forward, leaving the bad past behind, and all that good stuff.

Superb post. +1.

And don't forget Visconti. You really have to wonder why all these riders went to Ferrari in the first place if they can ride like this clean.

 

[the sceptic]

Superb post. +1.

And don't forget Visconti. You really have to wonder why all these riders went to Ferrari in the first place if they can ride like this clean.

If Scarponi was anglo-saxon and riding for Garmin i bet you would say it would be a great win for clean cycling if he could get a podium here.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Superb post. +1.

And don't forget Visconti. You really have to wonder why all these riders went to Ferrari in the first place if they can ride like this clean.

Oh come on that's an easy one. They went to Ferrari because everyone else was going to Ferrari, or Fuentes or _______ , but now that those guys have all been put out of business they can do well while "clean" isher.

 

[classicomano]

The Secret Pro ‏@IamtheSecretPro 6m

Menchov retires, Santambrogio wins a stage and sitting in 4th. Pro cycling is still in same balance

.. I guess were not alone then.

 

[Big Doopie]

If Scarponi was anglo-saxon and riding for Garmin i bet you would say it would be a great win for clean cycling if he could get a podium here.

Lol! Funny one! And there again is an example of someone calling me a racist. They don't know me. They don't even know my ethnicity. How stupid and lacking in logic is that? But I'm the one who gets threatened with being banned. CN more and more like that sorry DP.

But you bring up one good point. I do in fact judge how doped races are by how competitive garmin is. They don't have to win. They just have to be competitive. And also if the french riding for french teams can compete. So you see it is irrespective of ethnicity. It is more out of pure logic -- something that escapes most of you. Funny that -- how you are chomping at the bit to pigeonhole and stereotype a poster like me. How ironic.

And, yes, I actually believe in jv. Because to be systematically running a dirty program he would have to be more sociopathic than Armstrong himself. And evidence shows the contrary. Again. Logic.

That is why I think the 2011 tour was one of the cleanest because in the third week several of Garmin's riders managed to be in the top twenty during mountain stages (and they took home the team prize). Again, they weren't dominant or necessarily winning but the team was competitive in the third week of a GT. I also believe in europecar and Fdj. Because I believe in general in French riders riding on French teams. That's not to say those at the top of gc like Evans, Clentadopucci and frank & fraudlet were clean but their doping was "limited". I fear that this giro -- with the host of unrepentant Ferrari patients doing so well is a turn for the worse.

 

[Netserk]

So you think Hesjedal, Voeckler and Rolland are clean?

 

[pmcg76]

So you think Hesjedal, Voeckler and Rolland are clean?

How about Thibaut Pinot??

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And, yes, I actually believe in jv. Because to be systematically running a dirty program he would have to be more sociopathic than Armstrong himself. And evidence shows the contrary. Again. Logic.

JV is running a dirty program with Garmin like Chris Carmichael - touted as and trading as Lance's coach - was running a dirty program with USPS. As an example: JV was not even there when Ryder won the Giro last year. His team's first ever GT victory.

That is why I think the 2011 tour was one of the cleanest because in the third week garmin's riders managed to be in the top twenty and take home the team win. Also believe in europecar and Fdj. Because I believe in general in French riders riding on French teams. That's not to say those at the top of gc like Evans, Clentadopucci and frank & fraudlet were clean but their doping was "limited".

And Wiggins? In 2009?

And could you clarify your position on the poseur, Voekler? Who struggles so desperately to look like he is struggling when breaking away for 5 categorised climbs that he has become a caricature on the road.

 

[Big Doopie]

Hesjedal, oh yes, Rolland, oh most definitely, Pinot, oh without a doubt. Clean, cleaner and cleanest!

Clentadoppucci, Nibali, both Schlecks don't know how to compete without doping.

 

[pmcg76]

JV is running a dirty program with Garmin like Chris Carmichael - touted as and trading as Lance's coach - was running a dirty program with USPS. As an example: JV was not even there when Ryder won the Giro last year. His team's first ever GT victory.



And Wiggins? In 2009?

And could you clarify your position on the poseur, Voekler? Who struggles so desperately to look like he is struggling when breaking away for 5 categorised climbs that he has become a caricature on the road.

First part makes no sense. Chris Carmichael had no connection with US Postal at any stage and yes his involvement with Lance was over-stated for money making purposes.

How does that compare with JV who is the guy managing Garmin, he is no longer a DS but he is the guy they all answer to.

I think your point is that JV doesn't know what Ryder is getting up to so thus is as clueless as Carmichael, thus either all the rest of Garmin know Ryder is up to no-good and are also keeping it from JV or none of them know because Ryder is doing it so super secret, nobody else knows. Of course there is the third option that everyone dopes and JV IS THE EVIL GENIUS.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

First part makes no sense. Chris Carmichael had no connection with US Postal at any stage and yes his involvement with Lance was over-stated for money making purposes.

How does that compare with JV who is the guy managing Garmin, he is no longer a DS but he is the guy they all answer to.

I think your point is that JV doesn't know what Ryder is getting up to so thus is as clueless as Carmichael, thus either all the rest of Garmin know Ryder is up to no-good and are also keeping it from JV or none of them know because Ryder is doing it so super secret, nobody else knows. Of course there is the third option that everyone dopes and JV IS THE EVIL GENIUS.

And no, JV is not an evil genius, he is just Stephen Hawking level genius, able to detect cleanliness from continents away, measure Hgb with a glance and prove a rider is clean in a single day's testing.

What I find curious is JV's team is the same basic setup as Legeay's. They both say, "you don't have to dope".

JV did anyway.

But now, apparently noone on Garmin does. Just coz JV says they don't have to.

It's like fricken magic.

Which I don't believe in, by the way.

 

[Big Doopie]

First part makes no sense. Chris Carmichael had no connection with US Postal at any stage and yes his involvement with Lance was over-stated for money making purposes.

How does that compare with JV who is the guy managing Garmin, he is no longer a DS but he is the guy they all answer to.

I think your point is that JV doesn't know what Ryder is getting up to so thus is as clueless as Carmichael, thus either all the rest of Garmin know Ryder is up to no-good and are also keeping it from JV or none of them know because Ryder is doing it so super secret, nobody else knows. Of course there is the third option that everyone dopes and JV IS THE EVIL GENIUS.

Careful. Careful. I hope you are thick-skinned. You might be called a racist for showing such logic.

 

[pmcg76]

And no, JV is not an evil genius, he is just Stephen Hawking level genius, able to detect cleanliness from continents away, measure Hgb with a glance and prove a rider is clean in a single day's testing.

What I find curious is JV's team is the same basic setup as Legeay's. They both say, "you don't have to dope".

JV did anyway.

But now, apparently noone on Garmin does. Just coz JV says they don't have to.

It's like fricken magic.

Which I don't believe in, by the way.

Amazing how you guys avoid simple questions and take things of in a different direction.

How is Garmin the same basic set-up as Credit Agricole?? are we back to making random things up?? I would like to ask you here when exactly you started following pro cycling??

Wouldn't the difference be that CA didn't have anywhere near the same level of internal testing done on their riders that Garmin do.

There is also the ironic twist that Vaughters was far from the prying eyes of the CA bosses when based in Girona whilst Ryder is based right under the team's noses as he is based in Girona during the season and does his in-season testing with the team.

I think Roger Legeay left his rider's much to themselves and relied on their own honesty more than any particular stringent anti-doping team measures. Remember Credit Agricole did have guys test positive(Botcharov, Fofonov) and the likes of Kaschekin and Caucchioli also rode for CA.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Amazing how you guys avoid simple questions and take things of in a different direction.

There was no question in your post.

How is Garmin the same basic set-up as Credit Agricole?? are we back to making random things up?? I would like to ask you here when exactly you started following pro cycling??

Gee. I say how they are the same basic set up, and then you ask me how they were the same. I shall repeat it here.

What I find curious is JV's team is the same basic setup as Legeay's. They both say, "you don't have to dope".

That makes them the same basic setup.

Wouldn't the difference be that CA didn't have anywhere near the same level of internal testing done on their riders that Garmin do.

If you can get around the BP, you can get around internal testing. I hope you don't believe otherwise.

There is also the ironic twist that Vaughters was far from the prying eyes of the CA bosses when based in Girona whilst Ryder is based right under the team's noses as he is based in Girona during the season and does his in-season testing with the team.

I think Roger Legeay left his rider's much to themselves and relied on their own honesty more than any particular stringent anti-doping team measures.

This ironic twist seems irrelevant given
* JV was not at the Giro that Ryder won in 2012
* Ryder spends his off-season in Hawaii
* Wiggins in 2009:

While I admire Brad as an athlete, I can tell you he was a nightmare to work with and certainly did not listen to much advice I gave him...beyond "wow, brad, most of your power produced in a 4 minute pursuit is via aerobic metabolism...that's unique...You could be a stage racer"

And that's where Brad and I stopped.

he trained in Girona and Manchester, mainly. He was coached by Rod Ellingworth (sp?)

Girona is packed full of cyclists - I am not sure where you get "prying eyes" from - like JV can see what Ryder or anyone else on the team is up to, 24/7.

I am not saying Ryder is doping or doped, and I definitely do not think JV is behind any doping scheme, but by the same token, doping on his team would not be any more difficult than on any other team.

 

[Ferminal]

What is the point of internal testing if it doesn't contribute to the ABP? I mean Hesjedal was officially blood tested less than once a month before the Giro last year.

Not that there is any evidence of stringent internal testing in the first place.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

What is the point of internal testing if it doesn't contribute to the ABP? I mean Hesjedal was officially blood tested less than once a month before the Giro last year.

Not that there is any evidence of stringent internal testing in the first place.

Yeah the only evidence we have is JV saying there is testing. And whinging about its cost. Which seems kinda funny, given the cost to UCI is mostly tied up in collection and analysis (86%) and I would have thought JV had his own doctor and Sysmex to do the collecting and analysis.

Given the Sysmex is what $150k and the doctor is $250k, that's $400k, out of the supposed $600k he spends on the internal program. Every year. So the Sysmex cost becomes depreciation and maintenance after year 1 - significantly less than $150k, at a guess.

Again, no details or transparency, so this theory could be way off the mark.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

JV has also mentioned requesting and receiving access to all his rider's BP data. Given the frequent internal testing he does, why would he need the very infrequent and prone to regular anomalies data from the BP?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

But you bring up one good point. I do in fact judge how doped races are by how competitive garmin is. They don't have to win. They just have to be competitive. And also if the french riding for french teams can compete. So you see it is irrespective of ethnicity. It is more out of pure logic -- something that escapes most of you. Funny that -- how you are chomping at the bit to pigeonhole and stereotype a poster like me. How ironic.

The cat is out of the bag, a true Garmin fan speaking here.

Garmin competitive: no doping
Garmin not competitive: doping

Well, that is quite a nice way of 'logic'.

And, yes, I actually believe in jv. Because to be systematically running a dirty program he would have to be more sociopathic than Armstrong himself. And evidence shows the contrary. Again. Logic.

Again, your logic.

That is why I think the 2011 tour was one of the cleanest because in the third week several of Garmin's riders managed to be in the top twenty during mountain stages (and they took home the team prize). Again, they weren't dominant or necessarily winning but the team was competitive in the third week of a GT. I also believe in europecar and Fdj. Because I believe in general in French riders riding on French teams. That's not to say those at the top of gc like Evans, Clentadopucci and frank & fraudlet were clean but their doping was "limited". I fear that this giro -- with the host of unrepentant Ferrari patients doing so well is a turn for the worse.

Hahaha, Hushovd winning mountain[ous] stages, a true sign how cycling was so much cleaner in 2011.

So, this is the logic:

Hushovd winning mountainstage ------------> no doping
Garmin not competitive in Giro --------------> doping
Naverdauskas winning a stage --------------> no doping
Visconti winning a stage --------------------> doping
Hesjedal dropping Scarponi------------------> no doping
Nibali dropping Scarponi --------------------> doping

But lets take a trip into memory lane. Stage 19 of the 1999 Giro versus stage 19 of the 2012 Giro.
1999:
Castelfranco Veneto - Alpe Di Pampeago
164 kms
Cima di Campo 1427 metres
Passo Manghen 2047 metres
Alpe di Pampeago (Stage Finish) 1760 metres

The correct profile is not at hand but this would come close:

1. Marco Pantani (Ita) Mercatone Uno-Bianchi 5.13.15
2. Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Ballan-Alessio 1.07
3. Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 1.27
4. Ivan Gotti (Ita) Team Polti 1.29
5. Daniele De Paoli (Ita) Amica Chips-Costa Almeria 1.54
6. Oscar Camenzind (Swi) Lampre-Daikin 2.32
7. Roberto Sgambelluri (Ita) Cantina Tollo-Alexia 2.32
8. Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Saeco-Cannondale 2.46
9. Niklas Axelsson (Swe) Navigare-Gaerne 2.52
10. Oscar Sevilla Ribera (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 2.54

Climbing times:
Pantani 21 19
Simoni 22 26
Heras 22 46
And so on.

2012:
Stage 19: Treviso - Alpe di Pampeago 197km

1 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Astana Pro Team 6:18:03
2 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Barracuda 0:00:19
3 Joaquim Rodriguez Oliver (Spa) Katusha Team 0:00:32
4 Michele Scarponi (Ita) Lampre - ISD 0:00:35
5 Domenico Pozzovivo (Ita) Colnago - CSF Inox 0:00:43
6 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:00:55
7 Rigoberto Uran Uran (Col) Sky Procycling 0:00:57
8 Mikel Nieve Ituralde (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:01:18
9 Stefano Pirazzi (Ita) Colnago - CSF Inox 0:01:22
10 John Gadret (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale

Climbing times:
Hesjedal 22 22
Rodriguez 22 35
Scarponi 22 38

And so on.

Make of that what you want. In 1999 riders needed epo, hgh, cortisone, testosterone yet the Giro peloton of 2012 could match it on bread and water.

 

[Von Mises]

And so on.

Make of that what you want. In 1999 riders needed epo, hgh, cortisone, testosterone yet the Giro peloton of 2012 could match it on bread and water.

There are too many uncertainties and unkowns, what make these kind of comparisons useless.

 

[taiwan]

Lol! Funny one! And there again is an example of someone calling me a racist. They don't know me. They don't even know my ethnicity. How stupid and lacking in logic is that? But I'm the one who gets threatened with being banned. CN more and more like that sorry DP.

But you bring up one good point. I do in fact judge how doped races are by how competitive garmin is. They don't have to win. They just have to be competitive. And also if the french riding for french teams can compete. So you see it is irrespective of ethnicity. It is more out of pure logic -- something that escapes most of you. Funny that -- how you are chomping at the bit to pigeonhole and stereotype a poster like me. How ironic.

And, yes, I actually believe in jv. Because to be systematically running a dirty program he would have to be more sociopathic than Armstrong himself. And evidence shows the contrary. Again. Logic.

That is why I think the 2011 tour was one of the cleanest because in the third week several of Garmin's riders managed to be in the top twenty during mountain stages (and they took home the team prize). Again, they weren't dominant or necessarily winning but the team was competitive in the third week of a GT. I also believe in europecar and Fdj. Because I believe in general in French riders riding on French teams. That's not to say those at the top of gc like Evans, Clentadopucci and frank & fraudlet were clean but their doping was "limited". I fear that this giro -- with the host of unrepentant Ferrari patients doing so well is a turn for the worse.

But...but...nvm.

 

[Big Doopie]

The cat is out of the bag, a true Garmin fan speaking.

You guys have such a need to pigeonhole everyone it's hilarious. It's as if you can't exist in a world that has some grey.

Not a garmin fan specifically. A non-doping fan for sure. Therefore huge Pierre Rolland fan. Check out my posts during last year's TDF.

So, this is the logic:

Omg. I am really sorry you spent all that time posting that. I couldn't get through it. It was incomprehensible. And - as pointed out by another poster - lacking in...logic.

The problem with many of you is that you are so fearful of being wrong in the future you decide that the only way to cover yourselves from that terrible "humiliation" (omg I can't be wrong on an anonymous cycling forum!) is to repeat incessantly everyone doped, everyone does it as much, and no team or country (due to lax laws and lack of political will) could possibly be more likely to dope than another. The problem with that is it doesn't jibe with the FACTS.

It's actually an anti-intellectual false-equivalency based in some weird cycling PC-ness driven by the fear of being wrong on an anonymous forum.

Fascinating.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

There are too many uncertainties and unkowns, what make these kind of comparisons useless.

2003:
Pantani 23 45

2012
Hesjedal 22 22

1998
Zulle 22 24

Data is never useless.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

There are too many uncertainties and unkowns, what make these kind of comparisons useless.

2003:
Pantani 23 45

2012
Hesjedal 22 22

1998
Zulle 22 24

Data is never useless.

You guys have such a need to pigeonhole everyone it's hilarious. It's as if you can't exist in a world that has some grey.

Not a garmin fan specifically. A non-doping fan for sure. Therefore huge Pierre Rolland fan. Check out my posts during last year's TDF.



Omg. I am really sorry you spent all that time posting that. I couldn't get through it. It was incomprehensible. And - as pointed out by another poster - lacking in...logic.

The problem with many of you is that you are so fearful of being wrong in the future you decide that the only way to cover yourselves from that terrible "humiliation" (omg I can't be wrong on an anonymous cycling forum!) is to repeat incessantly everyone doped, everyone does it as much, and no team or country (due to lax laws and lack of political will) could possibly be more likely to dope than another. The problem with that is it doesn't jibe with the FACTS.

It's actually an anti-intellectual false-equivalency based in some weird cycling PC-ness driven by the fear of being wrong on an anonymous forum.

Fascinating.

Thanks for the input.

 

[staubsauger]

What was the time of Sella in 2008?

 

[Wigwan]

2003:
Pantani 23 45

2012
Hesjedal 22 22

1998
Zulle 22 24

Data is never useless.

From what I remember there was a massive tailwind last year.