• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Rank 1-4: Boonen, Cancellara, Contador & Valverde

Page 4 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jul 8, 2016
143
0
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
El Pistolero said:
jsem94 said:
But has Philippe Gilbert won a GT? No.

Has Valverde won a World Championship? No.

A rainbow jersey is better than the Vuelta, just ask Nibali.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064ghp6r_ps

And winning the points jersey in the TdF 3 times is better than winning 4 GTs + 1 monument, just ask SlovakFan12345.

Your point?

I doubt anyone can back that against anyone.

Classics ands GTs are different fields and deserve to be treated as such. But I think we can all agree that winning a GT however weak the opposition is requires far more sacrifice and effort than winning a classic.

Valverde is pure talent, a truly gifted rider, excels at all fields... who wins Classics but falls just a bit short of GTs. That should serve as an idea of the point Im trying to make.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
jsem94 said:
But has Philippe Gilbert won a GT? No.

Has Valverde won a World Championship? No.

A rainbow jersey is better than the Vuelta, just ask Nibali.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064ghp6r_ps

Apologies for my confusion, but how does Nibali saying a rainbow jersey is better than the vuelta make it so? Particularly when it seems many other riders have different views on the matter
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

Climeon said:
El Pistolero said:
jsem94 said:
But has Philippe Gilbert won a GT? No.

Has Valverde won a World Championship? No.

A rainbow jersey is better than the Vuelta, just ask Nibali.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064ghp6r_ps

Apologies for my confusion, but how does Nibali saying a rainbow jersey is better than the vuelta make it so? Particularly when it seems many other riders have different views on the matter

Name them.

When has a Vuelta winner received more attention than the current world champion? Just compare Aru with Sagan for crying out loud! As someone who won the Vuelta, and competed in numerous World Championships, I rate Nibali's opinion higher than most other cyclists in the peloton.

Being able to wear the rainbow jersey for a whole year beats whatever ugly trophy the Vuelta gives you. How many riders make the Vuelta one of their main goals of the season anyway? Besides Esteban Chaves I can't think of one rider this season.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Climeon said:
El Pistolero said:
jsem94 said:
But has Philippe Gilbert won a GT? No.

Has Valverde won a World Championship? No.

A rainbow jersey is better than the Vuelta, just ask Nibali.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=064ghp6r_ps

Apologies for my confusion, but how does Nibali saying a rainbow jersey is better than the vuelta make it so? Particularly when it seems many other riders have different views on the matter

Name them.

When has a Vuelta winner received more attention than the current world champion? Just compare Aru with Sagan for crying out loud! As someone who won the Vuelta, and competed in numerous World Championships, I rate Nibali's opinion higher than most other cyclists in the peloton.

Being able to wear the rainbow jersey for a whole year beats whatever ugly trophy the Vuelta gives you. How many riders make the Vuelta one of their main goals of the season anyway? Besides Esteban Chaves I can't think of one rider this season.

So you're new argument is a.World championship winners gain more publicity than Vuelta winners, b.Nibali is a highly qualified rider therefore his opinion is more useful to us in determining the prestige of the two events than that of most other riders and c.Apart from Chaves no rider has made the Vuelta their main goal of the season and therefore the World Championship RR is more prestigious than the Vuelta. Good-you now have an actual argument.

I'd dispute c, just look at the quality of the field the Vuelta has attracted each years for many of the past years, and how it is clearly one of their main races of the season (e.g. behind the Tour/Giro for Quintana, Froome and Contador last year). b. is clearly not a significant strength of the argument in favour of the world RR. To a. I'd say that the worlds RR lasts for 1 day, the Vuelta for 21 race days, and during the entire time it's on it receives significant attention on each and every day, giving the winner lots of publicity-though overall the world RR winner does receive more publicity.

Overall tbh I feel the Vuelta and world RR are two big events in the cycling calendar both of which possess sound claims to prestige but for very different reasons and thus any attempt to determine which one is the 'better' one to win is axiomatically extremely subjective
 
Re:

El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."
Yeah, he has been always jealous of Valverdes talent.
 
Re: Re:

Fernandez said:
El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."
Yeah, he has been always jealous of Valverdes talent.
It's funny how he doesn't mention that nearly all his big wins came when Valverde was out suspended. Perhaps beating sub-par opposition means a lot to him.
 
May 26, 2012
105
0
0
Visit site
I don't think Valverde is aiming especially for WT Ranking. His peak form is just little bit better than his (extremly high) basic level. He just love cycling. He is racing as much as possible. He even said he migh ride Vuelta this year if route will be more on South Spain...because he like racing close to his home. If he would focus on WT Ranking more he would not go for those Spain stage races instead of WT races every year. He doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. He is just doing what he enjoys. Yes, he would be better puncher if he ignored GT and vice versa. But I like that there is rider like him and we should enjoy it while we can. Cycling is more and more about specialisations.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Fernandez said:
El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."
Yeah, he has been always jealous of Valverdes talent.
It's funny how he doesn't mention that nearly all his big wins came when Valverde was out suspended. Perhaps beating sub-par opposition means a lot to him.

Valverde was there, racing for second or third, when he won the WC.

But you're cute if you think Valverde could have stopped Gilbert in 2011. Valverde has never been as dominant in his career as Gilbert back then. Valverde finished way behind Gilbert in 2009 LBL and even though he finished ahead of Gilbert in 2010 LBL he was actually dropped hard by him and could only return thanks to Cadel Evans chasing him (Valverde being the wheelsucker he is, contributed very little to the chase).
 
Re:

contador
valverde
boonen
cancellara

El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."

hm, froome is a disgrace of cycling, valverde doesn't have a winning mentality, all the riders suffers from lack of charisma, etc.. how many riders do you tolerate? probably 2. sagan and gilbert :D
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
DFA123 said:
Fernandez said:
El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."
Yeah, he has been always jealous of Valverdes talent.
It's funny how he doesn't mention that nearly all his big wins came when Valverde was out suspended. Perhaps beating sub-par opposition means a lot to him.

Valverde was there, racing for second or third, when he won the WC. And maybe Valverde shouldn't have doped then? His palmares would look even worse than it already is. :lol:
All I would say, is it looks pretty classless from Gilbert to shoot his mouth off like that. When a) he only peaks for a maximum of about five race days per season (compared with about 30 for Valverde) and b) he has got a pretty poor record of winning in races that Valverde has actually entered as well. Of course he diminishes 2nd and 3rd places, because he has zero chance of getting close to that in GTs, and, apart from one season, has never been able to hold his peak long enough to achieve that kind of consistency.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
El Pistolero said:
DFA123 said:
Fernandez said:
El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."
Yeah, he has been always jealous of Valverdes talent.
It's funny how he doesn't mention that nearly all his big wins came when Valverde was out suspended. Perhaps beating sub-par opposition means a lot to him.

Valverde was there, racing for second or third, when he won the WC. And maybe Valverde shouldn't have doped then? His palmares would look even worse than it already is. :lol:
All I would say, is it looks pretty classless from Gilbert to shoot his mouth off like that. When a) he only peaks for a maximum of about five race days per season (compared with about 30 for Valverde) and b) he has got a pretty poor record of winning in races that Valverde has actually entered as well. Of course he diminishes 2nd and 3rd places, because he has zero chance of getting close to that in GTs, and, apart from one season, has never been able to hold his peak long enough to achieve that kind of consistency.

Using your logic Valverde also has a pretty poor record winning races Gilbert entered in top form: He only won one LBL since his return and Gilbert wasn't even in shape then as he crashed hard in FW a few days before. Same goes for this year, where Gilbert broke his finger. Oh noes, Valverde can't win any races where Gilbert enters unless something bad happens! Great logic. And Gilbert always rides to win races throughout the season, he isn't Sep Vanmarcke. Contador thinks exactly like Gilbert and he has won many GTs. So that logic doesn't make sense either. And they have an equal amount of second and third places in Monuments actually: five. Gilbert was also second last year in the Clasica San Sebastian, while Valverde was third.

Boonen, Gilbert, Cancellara, Nibali and Contador only care for wins. That's what sets them apart from Valverde.
 
Jul 8, 2016
143
0
0
Visit site
Selecting the most talented is always a biased judgement. Palmares however is a fact, and we can clearly see a trend there: Contador, Valverde Cancellara, Boonen.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
Re:

LeSensei said:
Selecting the most talented is always a biased judgement. Palmares however is a fact, and we can clearly see a trend there: Contador, Valverde Cancellara, Boonen.

I'm curious to hear your opinion on how Valverde has a better palmares than Cancellara and Boonen then.

Valverde won 3 monuments versus 7 from Boonen and Cancellara.
Valverde won one GT (the least prestigious one) versus zero from Boonen and Cancellara.
Boonen won the WC RR while Valverde and Cancellara never achieved that.
Cancellara won the WC TT four times while Valverde and Boonen never achieved that.
Cancellara won Olympic gold in the TT and Olympic silver (or bronze) in the road race, Boonen and Valverde have no Olympic medals.
Boonen won 6 Tour stages and the green jersey, Valverde won 3 Tour stages and Cancellara won 8 Tour stages. All 3 of them wore the yellow jersey at least once in their career.
Valverde won the Dauphiné twice and Catalunya once, Cancellara won T-A and Tour de Suisse once, Boonen never won a WT stage race (he's a sprinter after all).

Valverde (FW and CSS) won a lot of lesser classics, but so did Boonen (G-W, E3 Harelbeke) and Cancellara (E3 Harelbeke and Strade Bianche).

If we look at podiums in Monuments than Cancellara has nine second or third places, Valverde has five and Boonen has 6. Valverde podiumed all three Grand Tours, but only won the Vuelta once. I guess if you really like second or third place you can put Valverde higher than Cancellara and Boonen.
 
Re:

LeSensei said:
Selecting the most talented is always a biased judgement. Palmares however is a fact, and we can clearly see a trend there: Contador, Valverde Cancellara, Boonen.
Not really, fans rating the palmares is subjective as well. The most objective is probably procycling or cq rankings - because they are not fanboys of any particular rider and have pretty detailed formulas for evaluating it all. And they rate Contador as having the worst palmares of the four - probably because he is more limited in his abilities and can only pick up points on a relatively small number of races/stages.
 
Re:

El Pistolero said:
1. Contador
2. Cancellara
3. Boonen
4. Valverde

Valverde has the worst palmares out of these four, and that is a fact.

3 Monuments (all LBL), 4 FW , one Vuelta and four Tour stages... Boonen has 7 monuments (4 times Roubaix, 3 times Ronde), 1 WC RR, 3 G-W, 5 E3 Harelbeke, 6 Tour stages and the green jersey.

Nibali once said the WC RR is a bigger win than the Vuelta and I agree with him on that.
Omg. You have canc over Boone?

We spent thousands of posts arguing this between 2010 and 2013
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
El Pistolero said:
1. Contador
2. Cancellara
3. Boonen
4. Valverde

Valverde has the worst palmares out of these four, and that is a fact.

3 Monuments (all LBL), 4 FW , one Vuelta and four Tour stages... Boonen has 7 monuments (4 times Roubaix, 3 times Ronde), 1 WC RR, 3 G-W, 5 E3 Harelbeke, 6 Tour stages and the green jersey.

Nibali once said the WC RR is a bigger win than the Vuelta and I agree with him on that.
Omg. You have canc over Boone?

We spent thousands of posts arguing this between 2010 and 2013

Since we last had that discussion Cancellara won the Ronde twice and Roubaix once. While Boonen has really won jack *** since 2012 (in part due to terrible luck, but age affected him more than Cancellara). Combine that with Cancellara's TT wins and it puts him above Boonen. Now if you ask me who I think is the best classics rider of the two, I'll still give Boonen the slight edge. Let's be honest here, Boonen and Cancellara strengthen each other's legacy. They're the two rivals of the century.

Now if Boonen had won that fifth Roubaix I'd have been tempted to put him ahead of Cancellara. :p
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

dacooley said:
contador
valverde
boonen
cancellara

El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."

hm, froome is a disgrace of cycling, valverde doesn't have a winning mentality, all the riders suffers from lack of charisma, etc.. how many riders do you tolerate? probably 2. sagan and gilbert :D

Sagan, Nibali, Contador, Boonen, Cancellara and Gilbert are the riders I respect the most. Don't get me wrong: I was always cheering against Cancellara winning anything, but I did respect him. They all have an unparalleled desire to win races.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
dacooley said:
contador
valverde
boonen
cancellara

El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."

hm, froome is a disgrace of cycling, valverde doesn't have a winning mentality, all the riders suffers from lack of charisma, etc.. how many riders do you tolerate? probably 2. sagan and gilbert :D

Sagan, Nibali, Contador, Boonen, Cancellara and Gilbert are the riders I respect the most. Don't get me wrong: I was always cheering against Cancellara winning anything, but I did respect him. They all have an unparalleled desire to win races.
Lol, you criticize Valverde for not turning his talent into enough wins. And then pick the only rider in the peloton who is more expert than him at finishing on the 2nd step of the podium.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,455
5
0
Visit site
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
El Pistolero said:
dacooley said:
contador
valverde
boonen
cancellara

El Pistolero said:
This is what Gilbert said about Valverde: "I don't understand him. I think he aims for the World Tour Ranking and not victories. He finished four times as number one on the ranking, maybe it means a lot to him."

He continues:

"Winning remains the only goal. I don't ride for places of honor. I'm not interested in the second, third or fourth place. That equals losing. Maybe I'll count my podium places in ten years from now, but now I don't care."

hm, froome is a disgrace of cycling, valverde doesn't have a winning mentality, all the riders suffers from lack of charisma, etc.. how many riders do you tolerate? probably 2. sagan and gilbert :D

Sagan, Nibali, Contador, Boonen, Cancellara and Gilbert are the riders I respect the most. Don't get me wrong: I was always cheering against Cancellara winning anything, but I did respect him. They all have an unparalleled desire to win races.
Lol, you criticize Valverde for not turning his talent into enough wins. And then pick the only rider in the peloton who is more expert than him at finishing on the 2nd step of the podium.

His winner's mentality is undeniable. Those second places in the Tour contribute to his wins in the green jersey. One day he might be the only record holder of green jersey wins. What unique record does Valverde have? Most FW wins? Ok, I'll take the green jersey over that. Sagan often becomes second because he wastes too much energy before the sprint, Valverde often becomes second because he starts wheelsucking the chasers once the winning move has been made. That's the difference between them.
 
Reason why Valverde gets so many top placings that are not wins: He's too passive and lets the winning move go, wins groups sprint for good placing

Reason why Sagan gets so many top placings that are not wins: He does the selection, chases down most of the attacks, completely makes the race when usually everone's looking at him and then when they arrive at the finish he's too tired to win the sprint.