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Sagan is more talented than merckx. If sagan dropped 10 kilograms, he could win everything except paris roubaix. he has a great recovery, last year, he was in all breaks in third week.
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Considering he's not carrying much if any excess body weight the kg's he'd be dropping would be muscle, that would certainly rob him of power so I seriously doubt he'd be winning everything. possibly he would become a top 10 GC rider but I doubt he would dominateportugal11 said:
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Not really, what Sagan needs to win GTs is to change his training approach, practise time trialing and go to altitude training camps. His weight is okay.portugal11 said:
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Not sure that's a very fair comparison. Sagan is a 75kg sprinter with good skills as a rouleur; Valverde is a 62kg climber with great abilities as a puncheur and a fast finish. He couldn't chase down most of the attacks and still challenge; no rider who is successful in the Ardennes or GTs could do that.Red Rick said:
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Reason with they both get many top placings that are not wins: both are always the favourite for the sprint and everyone else teams up in order for the sprint not to happen. I doubt Valverde doesnt want to win a race. Dont be a hater.
Red Rick said:
Reason with they both get many top placings that are not wins: both are always the favourite for the sprint and everyone else teams up in order for the sprint not to happen. I doubt Valverde doesnt want to win a race. Dont be a hater.
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Valverde doesn't need to chase down *every* attack. Sagan does, but as RR points out that's something of a tactical mistake. What Valverde needs to do is occasionally make some attacks himself.
DFA123 said:
Valverde doesn't need to chase down *every* attack. Sagan does, but as RR points out that's something of a tactical mistake. What Valverde needs to do is occasionally make some attacks himself.
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Cobbled classic specialists can generally be a lot more aggressive because that is how they win races. They can put our huge power and drop riders more easily; and also their races tend to be a lot more stretched out late into the race. There are fewer team mates there and they normally only have to drop 1 or 2 other riders. Ardennes type races are usually won by either an underdog slipping clear late on, or from a big name in a reduced bunch finish - it's pretty rare that a favourite solo's clear nowdays.
He does make attacks in big races though; he's won FW numerous times in recent years by taking the initiative - same in San Sebastian and Roma Maxima in recent years. He won LBL last year by chasing down all attacks in the final 2km and still winning the sprint. He's also made attacks in Strade Bianche and countless stage races (sometimes winning, sometimes not). It's just not so easy when you are so heavily marked, that everyone will work to chase you down. Likewise, in a group of 5/6 everyone expects him to chase everything down and, unless he's on absolutely top form (like when he won LBL and FW) it's just not feasible. It's a lot harder for Valverde to win a big race than someone like Martin or Yates who can slip away while everyone looks at each other.Cannibal72 said:
Cobbled classic specialists can generally be a lot more aggressive because that is how they win races. They can put our huge power and drop riders more easily; and also their races tend to be a lot more stretched out late into the race. There are fewer team mates there and they normally only have to drop 1 or 2 other riders. Ardennes type races are usually won by either an underdog slipping clear late on, or from a big name in a reduced bunch finish - it's pretty rare that a favourite solo's clear nowdays.
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Valverde has won:
Liege-Bastogne-LIege in 2006, 2008 and 2015
Fleche Wallonne in 2006, 2014, 2015 and 2016
Clasica San Sebastian in 2008 and 2014
Roma Maxima in 2014
GP Miguel Indurain in 2014
Paris-Camembert in 2008
Klasika Primavera in 2003, 2004 and 2009
Spanish Championships in 2008 and 2015
in terms of one-day races (there are some 5-6 spanish races more)
He also has won six medals at WC RR. No other active cyclist has done this. And no other non-active cyclist has done this!
As you see, Valverde's one-day palmares (and I listed only wins) is pretty similar with Gilbert's and I rank them pretty equal. And if I throw in his GT and other stage races results this comparison becomes laughable!
El Pistolero said:
Valverde has won:
Liege-Bastogne-LIege in 2006, 2008 and 2015
Fleche Wallonne in 2006, 2014, 2015 and 2016
Clasica San Sebastian in 2008 and 2014
Roma Maxima in 2014
GP Miguel Indurain in 2014
Paris-Camembert in 2008
Klasika Primavera in 2003, 2004 and 2009
Spanish Championships in 2008 and 2015
in terms of one-day races (there are some 5-6 spanish races more)
He also has won six medals at WC RR. No other active cyclist has done this. And no other non-active cyclist has done this!
As you see, Valverde's one-day palmares (and I listed only wins) is pretty similar with Gilbert's and I rank them pretty equal. And if I throw in his GT and other stage races results this comparison becomes laughable!
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So you'd take a record in points classification which is not a record (Sagan - green jersey) over all-time record in WT classic (Valverde - FW)!!! You really are something!
El Pistolero said:DFA123 said:Lol, you criticize Valverde for not turning his talent into enough wins. And then pick the only rider in the peloton who is more expert than him at finishing on the 2nd step of the podium.El Pistolero said:dacooley said:contador
valverde
boonen
cancellara
El Pistolero said:
hm, froome is a disgrace of cycling, valverde doesn't have a winning mentality, all the riders suffers from lack of charisma, etc.. how many riders do you tolerate? probably 2. sagan and gilbert
Sagan, Nibali, Contador, Boonen, Cancellara and Gilbert are the riders I respect the most. Don't get me wrong: I was always cheering against Cancellara winning anything, but I did respect him. They all have an unparalleled desire to win races.
His winner's mentality is undeniable. Those second places in the Tour contribute to his wins in the green jersey. One day he might be the only record holder of green jersey wins. What unique record does Valverde have? Most FW wins? Ok, I'll take the green jersey over that. Sagan often becomes second because he wastes too much energy before the sprint, Valverde often becomes second because he starts wheelsucking the chasers once the winning move has been made. That's the difference between them.
So you'd take a record in points classification which is not a record (Sagan - green jersey) over all-time record in WT classic (Valverde - FW)!!! You really are something!
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How on earth can you rank their one-day palmares equal? Gilbert has won more prestigious one-day races, simple fact. The Spanish National Road Race is just the Movistar gift festival anyway. He doesn't even honor the jersey by wearing it proudly. And you're including very small races like Paris-Camembert and Klasika Primavera?
Gilbert has plenty of small one-day races wins as well that I left out: GP de Wallonie twice, GP Fourmies, Trofeo Mallorca, Trofeo Soler, GP Samyn, Coppa Sabatini, Giro del Piemonte twice, GP Pino Cerami, Vuelta a Murcia (now a one-day race), Tour de Haut-Var (one-day race back then), Trophée des Grimpeurs and the Polynormande. Omloop het Nieuwsblad and Strade Bianche will be WT next year for a reason: they've always been very prestigious.
Yeah, Valverde has a Vuelta, but that doesn't beat a World Championship to me. A Vuelta win earns 170 UCI points and a WC win earns you 200 UCI points.
Mr.White said:
How on earth can you rank their one-day palmares equal? Gilbert has won more prestigious one-day races, simple fact. The Spanish National Road Race is just the Movistar gift festival anyway. He doesn't even honor the jersey by wearing it proudly. And you're including very small races like Paris-Camembert and Klasika Primavera?
Gilbert has plenty of small one-day races wins as well that I left out: GP de Wallonie twice, GP Fourmies, Trofeo Mallorca, Trofeo Soler, GP Samyn, Coppa Sabatini, Giro del Piemonte twice, GP Pino Cerami, Vuelta a Murcia (now a one-day race), Tour de Haut-Var (one-day race back then), Trophée des Grimpeurs and the Polynormande. Omloop het Nieuwsblad and Strade Bianche will be WT next year for a reason: they've always been very prestigious.
Yeah, Valverde has a Vuelta, but that doesn't beat a World Championship to me. A Vuelta win earns 170 UCI points and a WC win earns you 200 UCI points.
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Yeah, glad to see someone agree. It's crazy how some people seem to value 6 losses higher than a win.
PremierAndrew said:
Yeah, glad to see someone agree. It's crazy how some people seem to value 6 losses higher than a win.
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I agree. Ironically the WC was won by making the race, whereas the 6 medals were all won without making a single attack and waiting for the sprint
El Pistolero said:
I agree. Ironically the WC was won by making the race, whereas the 6 medals were all won without making a single attack and waiting for the sprint
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@Mr White
The green jersey is a grueling three week battle in the biggest cycling race of the world, while FW is a boring uphill sprint. Yes, I know what I'd rather win. Did you watch today's stage? I hope you have.
@Mr White
The green jersey is a grueling three week battle in the biggest cycling race of the world, while FW is a boring uphill sprint. Yes, I know what I'd rather win. Did you watch today's stage? I hope you have.
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Valverde actually has three GT points jersey wins himself. But I guess they are irrelevant because they don't suit your agenda.
July fansEl Pistolero said:
Valverde actually has three GT points jersey wins himself. But I guess they are irrelevant because they don't suit your agenda.
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Where? In what world?!
I ranked them pretty close in terms of one-day racing easily. I'm not blinded like you
Gilbert has 4 big wins (WC+3 Monuments), Valverde has 3
Gilbert has 5 podiums in those races, Valverde has 11
Gilbert has 6 WT level wins, Valverde has also 6
Gilbert has 21 other one-day win, Valverde has 16. Gilbert has an advantage here due to greater prestige of the races he won, but that's not a big advantage cause they're 3rd grade races.
I'd say Gilbert is better, but slightly. And we must take into account fact that Gilbert is exclusively one-day racer, and Valverde is not, which tips the balance a little in Valverde's favor.
El Pistolero said:
Where? In what world?!
I ranked them pretty close in terms of one-day racing easily. I'm not blinded like you
Gilbert has 4 big wins (WC+3 Monuments), Valverde has 3
Gilbert has 5 podiums in those races, Valverde has 11
Gilbert has 6 WT level wins, Valverde has also 6
Gilbert has 21 other one-day win, Valverde has 16. Gilbert has an advantage here due to greater prestige of the races he won, but that's not a big advantage cause they're 3rd grade races.
I'd say Gilbert is better, but slightly. And we must take into account fact that Gilbert is exclusively one-day racer, and Valverde is not, which tips the balance a little in Valverde's favor.
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They're irrelevant because nobody cares about the points jersey in the Vuelta. It's a joke competition. Accepting that the Tour is miles ahead of the Vuelta doesn't make you a July fan, but a realistic person who doesn't live in denial. Sagan will soon have 5 green jersey wins if he doesn't crash out.
DFA123 said:July fansEl Pistolero said:
Valverde actually has three GT points jersey wins himself. But I guess they are irrelevant because they don't suit your agenda.
They're irrelevant because nobody cares about the points jersey in the Vuelta. It's a joke competition. Accepting that the Tour is miles ahead of the Vuelta doesn't make you a July fan, but a realistic person who doesn't live in denial. Sagan will soon have 5 green jersey wins if he doesn't crash out.
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In that case, if Froome wins the Tour this year, you would graciously accept that he has a better Palmares and is a better rider than Contador I presume.El Pistolero said:DFA123 said:July fansEl Pistolero said:
Valverde actually has three GT points jersey wins himself. But I guess they are irrelevant because they don't suit your agenda.
They're irrelevant because nobody cares about the points jersey in the Vuelta. It's a joke competition. Accepting that the Tour is miles ahead of the Vuelta doesn't make you a July fan, but a realistic person who doesn't live in denial. Sagan will soon have 5 green jersey wins if he doesn't crash out.
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Why? 3 Tours, 3 Giro's and 3 Vuelta's is still better than 3 Tours. Even if you want to take away his disqualified wins a Giro and 2 Vuelta wins is still better than one Tour. I was talking about the points jersey in the Vuelta, not the leader's jersey. Even Mollema won the points jersey in the Vuelta... Can you imagine a rider like Mollema competing for green in the Tour?
DFA123 said:In that case, if Froome wins the Tour this year, you would graciously accept that he has a better Palmares and is a better rider than Contador I presume.El Pistolero said:DFA123 said:July fansEl Pistolero said:
Valverde actually has three GT points jersey wins himself. But I guess they are irrelevant because they don't suit your agenda.
They're irrelevant because nobody cares about the points jersey in the Vuelta. It's a joke competition. Accepting that the Tour is miles ahead of the Vuelta doesn't make you a July fan, but a realistic person who doesn't live in denial. Sagan will soon have 5 green jersey wins if he doesn't crash out.
Why? 3 Tours, 3 Giro's and 3 Vuelta's is still better than 3 Tours. Even if you want to take away his disqualified wins a Giro and 2 Vuelta wins is still better than one Tour. I was talking about the points jersey in the Vuelta, not the leader's jersey. Even Mollema won the points jersey in the Vuelta... Can you imagine a rider like Mollema competing for green in the Tour?
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Every points competition is a joke, including Tour's and can't be compared to any big classic which Fleche Wallonne certainly is! I also know what I'd rather win, and it's not some stupid classification for sure! I guess you started to hate FW when Valverde started to win there?
El Pistolero said:
Every points competition is a joke, including Tour's and can't be compared to any big classic which Fleche Wallonne certainly is! I also know what I'd rather win, and it's not some stupid classification for sure! I guess you started to hate FW when Valverde started to win there?
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FW is not a big classic. It used to be one back in the seventies, but nowadays it's a boring race that takes place on Wednesday when everybody is working. I hate FW because it's a boring race that always ends in an uphill sprint where the strongest wins, there is little tactics involved.
At the eve of LBL 2011 Gilbert said "I'd trade in all my wins so far this season for a win at LBL". That should give you an indication what pro riders think of FW.
And no, not every points competition is a joke. Why do you think Kittel, Cav and Sagan are fighting for the green jersey? When Boonen won the green jersey in the Tour the Belgian press exploded here. When Gilbert won the FW in 2011 it was just a mere footnote in an unbelievable string of wins. Winning the green jersey earns you a lot more publicity than FW, I can tell you that.
Mr.White said:
FW is not a big classic. It used to be one back in the seventies, but nowadays it's a boring race that takes place on Wednesday when everybody is working. I hate FW because it's a boring race that always ends in an uphill sprint where the strongest wins, there is little tactics involved.
At the eve of LBL 2011 Gilbert said "I'd trade in all my wins so far this season for a win at LBL". That should give you an indication what pro riders think of FW.
And no, not every points competition is a joke. Why do you think Kittel, Cav and Sagan are fighting for the green jersey? When Boonen won the green jersey in the Tour the Belgian press exploded here. When Gilbert won the FW in 2011 it was just a mere footnote in an unbelievable string of wins. Winning the green jersey earns you a lot more publicity than FW, I can tell you that.
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