Rank 1-4: Boonen, Cancellara, Contador & Valverde

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

1. Valverde
2. Contador
3. Cancellara
4. Boonen


Valverde may not have the biggest palmares, while the sheer amount of victories is extremely big for a non-sprinter. He has won the toughest one-day race

Stopped reading here, this makes absolutely no sense

Why doesn't it? It is the most prestigious monument with the strongest peleton at the start.

 

[burning]

Not at all, I would rate 1 Paris-Roubaix higher than 2 Liege as that race has become an uphill sprint lately. And I am pretty sure that no one in the peloton thinks that Liege is the hardest or the most prestigious one day race

 

[PremierAndrew]

Paris Roubaix and Ronde van Vlaanderen are both, along with the Worlds, more important and prestigious than Liege. In the past, LBL would have been more important than RVV, but now it's not the race it used to be, and its history is a major reason why it's considered so prestigious.

 

[Bardamu]

Re:

Not at all, I would rate 1 Paris-Roubaix higher than 2 Liege as that race has become an uphill sprint lately. And I am pretty sure that no one in the peloton thinks that Liege is the hardest or the most prestigious one day race

I'm sure if you ask around in the peleton they'll say LBL is the hardest one-day race of the year. Millar even says so in his biography.
Furthermore I have the feeling that Flanders and Roubaix have gotten new prestige within the peleton the last couple of years. But ten years ago the competition was just minor in these races. Riders like Hoste, Devolder and Backstedt were even in their prime not in the top 50 riders of the peleton.

 

[Red Rick]

I find it hard to rate them, because I watch a lot of cycling on Belgian channels, so I don't really know how much differently the classics are perceived. Though I have to say that AGR is an overrated *** race.

 

[Bardamu]

Re:

I find it hard to rate them, because I watch a lot of cycling on Belgian channels, so I don't really know how much differently the classics are perceived. Though I have to say that AGR is an overrated **** race.

Amstel really got *** quickly the last years. In the Boogerd era it was one of the better one-day races on the calendar.
Not sure if the problem lies solely on the parcours, but I do believe they have to change something to make the Amstel exciting again.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

I find it hard to rate them, because I watch a lot of cycling on Belgian channels, so I don't really know how much differently the classics are perceived. Though I have to say that AGR is an overrated **** race.

Does that mean that Gilbert's WC win was also overrated? As it was basically AGR.

 

[Red Rick]

WC is WC. I think it should be treated as one, otherwise everything gets so biased by how much we liked the way the race was won it takes away the whole point of discussing different races altogether. Then you're close to arguing Vuelta 2012>Tour 2012, etc.

I'm not stopping you from having more fond memories of watching one or the other.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

I find it hard to rate them, because I watch a lot of cycling on Belgian channels, so I don't really know how much differently the classics are perceived. Though I have to say that AGR is an overrated **** race.

Does that mean that Gilbert's WC win was also overrated? As it was basically AGR.

Of course any WC race is completely different from any WT race even if they have the same profile. It is the the strength of team that makes it different.

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

I find it hard to rate them, because I watch a lot of cycling on Belgian channels, so I don't really know how much differently the classics are perceived. Though I have to say that AGR is an overrated **** race.

Does that mean that Gilbert's WC win was also overrated? As it was basically AGR.

Of course any WC race is completely different from any WT race even if they have the same profile. It is the the strength of team that makes it different.

But then again the teams at Amstel are often very strong, perhaps the strongest in the whole year after LBL for a one-day race (apart from WC). It is just that it turns out disappointing too often.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Not at all, I would rate 1 Paris-Roubaix higher than 2 Liege as that race has become an uphill sprint lately. And I am pretty sure that no one in the peloton thinks that Liege is the hardest or the most prestigious one day race

I'm sure if you ask around in the peleton they'll say LBL is the hardest one-day race of the year. Millar even says so in his biography.
Furthermore I have the feeling that Flanders and Roubaix have gotten new prestige within the peleton the last couple of years. But ten years ago the competition was just minor in these races. Riders like Hoste, Devolder and Backstedt were even in their prime not in the top 50 riders of the peleton.

I remember Devolder doing a top ten in a Vuelta once and ripping the peloton apart in a Tour de Suisse. And he won the Belgian Nats 3 times, dominating such riders as Tom Boonen, Philippe Gilbert and Greg van Avermaet. He sucks most of the time, but when he had his day he was one of the best in the peloton. And Horner and Cobo also won a Vuelta, which is even more ludicrous than Devolder winning the Ronde if you ask me.

But yeah, especially the Ronde has gotten a better field lately, and the same goes for the Vuelta (more riders are doing the Tour-Vuelta double now than during the Armstrong or Contador era). Roubaix is a strange race, because of the characteristics of the race sometimes a domistique or lesser rider can win it. The two Australian winners of Paris-Roubaix won it in the break for example (sadly), Boonen should have won those two editions.

Kristoff, Degenkolb and Sagan are some of the best riders in the current peloton and they all target the cobbled classics, so the field is very strong these days. Also many cobblestone specialists actually won the World Championships: Tom Boonen, Paolo Bettini (he did ride the Ronde van Vlaanderen), Alessandro Ballan, Thor Hushovd, Philippe Gilbert, Kwiatkowski and Peter Sagan.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

1. Contador
2. Cancellara
3. Boonen
4. Valverde

Valverde has the worst palmares out of these four, and that is a fact.

3 Monuments (all LBL), 4 FW , one Vuelta and four Tour stages... Boonen has 7 monuments (4 times Roubaix, 3 times Ronde), 1 WC RR, 3 G-W, 5 E3 Harelbeke, 6 Tour stages and the green jersey.

Nibali once said the WC RR is a bigger win than the Vuelta and I agree with him on that.

Omg. You have canc over Boone?

We spent thousands of posts arguing this between 2010 and 2013

Since we last had that discussion Cancellara won the Ronde twice and Roubaix once. While Boonen has really won jack **** since 2012 (in part due to terrible luck, but age affected him more than Cancellara). Combine that with Cancellara's TT wins and it puts him above Boonen. Now if you ask me who I think is the best classics rider of the two, I'll still give Boonen the slight edge. Let's be honest here, Boonen and Cancellara strengthen each other's legacy. They're the two rivals of the century.

Now if Boonen had won that fifth Roubaix I'd have been tempted to put him ahead of Cancellara.

Fair play to you for being fairminded and honest. The "El Pickle" I knew in 2010-12 would never have admitted in a million years that Canc could be better than Boonen, even if Canc had done a wiggo and won the TDF as well.

To be honest, my old self would probably deny Boonen's superiority longer than neccesary if the roles had been reversed.

Good to see we have both matured

edit: though i remember now what the story behind that avatar is.

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

Not at all, I would rate 1 Paris-Roubaix higher than 2 Liege as that race has become an uphill sprint lately. And I am pretty sure that no one in the peloton thinks that Liege is the hardest or the most prestigious one day race

I'm sure if you ask around in the peleton they'll say LBL is the hardest one-day race of the year. Millar even says so in his biography.
Furthermore I have the feeling that Flanders and Roubaix have gotten new prestige within the peleton the last couple of years. But ten years ago the competition was just minor in these races. Riders like Hoste, Devolder and Backstedt were even in their prime not in the top 50 riders of the peleton.

I remember Devolder doing a top ten in a Vuelta once and ripping the peloton apart in a Tour de Suisse. And he won the Belgian Nats 3 times, dominating such riders as Tom Boonen, Philippe Gilbert and Greg van Avermaet. He sucks most of the time, but when he had his day he was one of the best in the peloton. And Horner and Cobo also won a Vuelta, which is even more ludicrous than Devolder winning the Ronde if you ask me.

But yeah, especially the Ronde has gotten a better field lately, and the same goes for the Vuelta (more riders are doing the Tour-Vuelta double now than during the Armstrong or Contador era). Roubaix is a strange race, because of the characteristics of the race sometimes a domistique or lesser rider can win it. The two Australian winners of Paris-Roubaix won it in the break for example (sadly), Boonen should have won those two editions.

Kristoff, Degenkolb and Sagan are some of the best riders in the current peloton and they all target the cobbled classics, so the field is very strong these days. Also many cobblestone specialists actually won the World Championships: Tom Boonen, Paolo Bettini (he did ride the Ronde van Vlaanderen), Alessandro Ballan, Thor Hushovd, Philippe Gilbert, Kwiatkowski and Peter Sagan.

How exactly did Devolder rip the peleton apart in the Tour de Suisse? Devolder won the Ronde twice because he was a teammate of Boonen and it destroyed the race.
Cobo defeated Wiggins/Froome in an exciting Vuelta, he earns his victory there.

I wouldn't call Bettini a cobbled-specialist, you're right on the rest though.

 

[Von Mises]

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

 

[Bardamu]

Re:

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

I remember when Alejandro was cracking a Spanish rider from another team brought him back to Gesink on a flat part of the climb. Which rider was that again?

 

[DFA123]

Re:

WC is WC. I think it should be treated as one, otherwise everything gets so biased by how much we liked the way the race was won it takes away the whole point of discussing different races altogether. Then you're close to arguing Vuelta 2012>Tour 2012, etc.

I'm not stopping you from having more fond memories of watching one or the other.

Fair enough, but I think there can be room for a more nuanced view. Quality of opposition should certainly have a bearing when rating the best riders. There is no way that Cavendish's WC is equal to Rui Costa's for example - sprinting was so weak at that time that it was basically a walkover.

Likewise, Gilbert's 2011 has always been slighlty diminished for me, as the two best Ardennes specialists of his generation were both absent.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

Valverde's won 14 GT stages in his career. That's a phenomenal record for any non-sprinter. In fact, even most sprinters would be proud of that. And how else can someone who is not a pure climber win a GT these days? They are so weighted towards high mountains and pure climbers that it's incredible that a rounded rider could even win one. The way he won it is something to be applauded, because it has broken up the monopoly that pure climbers have held over the GC for most of the last 30 years.

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

WC is WC. I think it should be treated as one, otherwise everything gets so biased by how much we liked the way the race was won it takes away the whole point of discussing different races altogether. Then you're close to arguing Vuelta 2012>Tour 2012, etc.

I'm not stopping you from having more fond memories of watching one or the other.

Fair enough, but I think there can be room for a more nuanced view. Quality of opposition should certainly have a bearing when rating the best riders. There is no way that Cavendish's WC is equal to Rui Costa's for example - sprinting was so weak at that time that it was basically a walkover.

Likewise, Gilbert's 2011 has always been slighlty diminished for me, as the two best Ardennes specialists of his generation were both absent.

Gilbert being Mr. Cauberg would have won that WC anyway.

I think you can diminish almost every big victory because of other great riders being absent or out of shape. Is Boonens WC victory diminished because Freire was injured?

 

[Carols]

Re:

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

As much as I like Bala I do admit it was a Snoozer of a GT! I ave it on dvd, it's good when you can't sleep and need some assistance .

But the man does have a GT win on his palmares and that alone puts him above almost all non GT winners. Add all his other accomplishments in and of these 4 he is #2 behind Contador.

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

As much as I like Bala I do admit it was a Snoozer of a GT! I ave it on dvd, it's good when you can't sleep and need some assistance .

But the man does have a GT win on his palmares and that alone puts him above almost all non GT winners. Add all his other accomplishments in and of these 4 he is #2 behind Contador.

Valverde is one of the greatest because of many many things, but not because of his sole Vuelta victory.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

As much as I like Bala I do admit it was a Snoozer of a GT! I ave it on dvd, it's good when you can't sleep and need some assistance .

But the man does have a GT win on his palmares and that alone puts him above almost all non GT winners. Add all his other accomplishments in and of these 4 he is #2 behind Contador.

Valverde is one of the greatest because of many many things, but not because of his sole Vuelta victory.

Did you ignore the very next sentence>'Add all his other accomplishments in'

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

As much as I like Bala I do admit it was a Snoozer of a GT! I ave it on dvd, it's good when you can't sleep and need some assistance .

But the man does have a GT win on his palmares and that alone puts him above almost all non GT winners. Add all his other accomplishments in and of these 4 he is #2 behind Contador.

Valverde is one of the greatest because of many many things, but not because of his sole Vuelta victory.

Did you ignore the very next sentence>'Add all his other accomplishments in'

No, but you seemed to emphasize on his sole overall GT victory. If you did not, I agree with you.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

WC is WC. I think it should be treated as one, otherwise everything gets so biased by how much we liked the way the race was won it takes away the whole point of discussing different races altogether. Then you're close to arguing Vuelta 2012>Tour 2012, etc.

I'm not stopping you from having more fond memories of watching one or the other.

Fair enough, but I think there can be room for a more nuanced view. Quality of opposition should certainly have a bearing when rating the best riders. There is no way that Cavendish's WC is equal to Rui Costa's for example - sprinting was so weak at that time that it was basically a walkover.

Likewise, Gilbert's 2011 has always been slighlty diminished for me, as the two best Ardennes specialists of his generation were both absent.

Gilbert being Mr. Cauberg would have won that WC anyway.

I think you can diminish almost every big victory because of other great riders being absent or out of shape. Is Boonens WC victory diminished because Freire was injured?

Valverde was present when Gilbert won the WC, he finished third. Gilbert also won stage 9 and 19 in the Vuelta that year, where Valverde finished 6th and 2nd respectively.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Valverdes Vuelta win was not very impressive either. Very much Valverede style: did not win a stage, did not force a selection, sucked wheels and sprinted for boni seconds + benefited from others bad luck (Gesink injury, Evans puncture etc).

As much as I like Bala I do admit it was a Snoozer of a GT! I ave it on dvd, it's good when you can't sleep and need some assistance .

But the man does have a GT win on his palmares and that alone puts him above almost all non GT winners. Add all his other accomplishments in and of these 4 he is #2 behind Contador.

Valverde is one of the greatest because of many many things, but not because of his sole Vuelta victory.

Did you ignore the very next sentence>'Add all his other accomplishments in'

No, but you seemed to emphasize on his sole overall GT victory. If you did not, I agree with you.

His overall accomplishments make him one of the best riders currently riding a bike. Of the 4 people on this thread I rank him #2 and one of the major reasons he is above the one day riders is because he is also a GT contender and winner.

 

[Nick C.]

Valverde did do one thing for which I was delighted at the time. He throttled Lance in the sprint atop Courchevel in the 2005 Tour. I remember Lance was winding up his overanimated Lance sprint that worked against Basso and Kloden and had the look of someone who thought he had the stage in the bag. Then Valverde came around him making him look like a Cat 2. It was great!!