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Rank 1-4: Boonen, Cancellara, Contador & Valverde

Page 6 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
DFA123 said:
El Pistolero said:
DFA123 said:
El Pistolero said:
@Mr White

The green jersey is a grueling three week battle in the biggest cycling race of the world, while FW is a boring uphill sprint. Yes, I know what I'd rather win. Did you watch today's stage? I hope you have.
July fans :rolleyes:

Valverde actually has three GT points jersey wins himself. But I guess they are irrelevant because they don't suit your agenda.

They're irrelevant because nobody cares about the points jersey in the Vuelta. It's a joke competition. Accepting that the Tour is miles ahead of the Vuelta doesn't make you a July fan, but a realistic person who doesn't live in denial. Sagan will soon have 5 green jersey wins if he doesn't crash out.
In that case, if Froome wins the Tour this year, you would graciously accept that he has a better Palmares and is a better rider than Contador I presume.

Why? 3 Tours, 3 Giro's and 3 Vuelta's is still better than 3 Tours. Even if you want to take away his disqualified wins a Giro and 2 Vuelta wins is still better than one Tour. I was talking about the points jersey in the Vuelta, not the leader's jersey. Even Mollema won the points jersey in the Vuelta... Can you imagine a rider like Mollema competing for green in the Tour?
This is why it's nonsense for fans to try to rank respective palmares. You just pick and choose the races and competitions which you want to - which, coincidentally, happen to be the ones that your favourite rider does well in.

The PCS and CQ rankings are the most objective ones - they have no agenda nor axe to grind.

Interesting the CQ ranking has Gilbert and Contador pretty much neck and neck in terms of all time points. So I guess Gilbert's one day record is more or less comparable to Contador's stage race record. Valverde, being so versatile, has 50% more points than both of them.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Winning the green jersey earns you a lot more publicity than FW, I can tell you that.

And winning a stage on the Champs Elysees earns you more publicity than winning Paris Roubaix. Doesn't mean sh*t. And if your logic for saying that the green jersey is a hard fought 3 week battle while FW is a 1 day uphill sprints, how can you say that winning the WC RR is more prestigious than winning the Vuelta? Okay, WC requires a lot more tactics, but it's still fairly similar in that it's a one day race, and at the end of the day, is one which rewards being from a big nation
Back in the 20th century, Vuelta didn't mean much, but in modern times, even the Vuelta is very very prestigious.
 
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Re: Re:

@DFA

CQ ranking is meaningless, it overvalues top ten places in races. Only wins matter when you're talking about the top 5 cyclists in the peloton, don't kid yourself. And Contador obviously has a much better palmares than Gilbert, so that shows you how flawed cqranking is.
 
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Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Mr.White said:
El Pistolero said:
@Mr White

The green jersey is a grueling three week battle in the biggest cycling race of the world, while FW is a boring uphill sprint. Yes, I know what I'd rather win. Did you watch today's stage? I hope you have.

Every points competition is a joke, including Tour's and can't be compared to any big classic which Fleche Wallonne certainly is! I also know what I'd rather win, and it's not some stupid classification for sure! I guess you started to hate FW when Valverde started to win there?

FW is not a big classic. It used to be one back in the seventies, but nowadays it's a boring race that takes place on Wednesday when everybody is working. I hate FW because it's a boring race that always ends in an uphill sprint where the strongest wins, there is little tactics involved.

At the eve of LBL 2011 Gilbert said "I'd trade in all my wins so far this season for a win at LBL". That should give you an indication what pro riders think of FW.

And no, not every points competition is a joke. Why do you think Kittel, Cav and Sagan are fighting for the green jersey? When Boonen won the green jersey in the Tour the Belgian press exploded here. When Gilbert won the FW in 2011 it was just a mere footnote in an unbelievable string of wins. Winning the green jersey earns you a lot more publicity than FW, I can tell you that.

And what else sprinters would do? They have 4-5 sprint stages, and what would they do apart from that? They got this silly competition... And I'm sure if Gilbert could win Fleche nowadays press would explode for several reasons (he rarely wins these days, and we all know who the strongest is ;) )
 
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Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
El Pistolero said:
Winning the green jersey earns you a lot more publicity than FW, I can tell you that.

And winning a stage on the Champs Elysees earns you more publicity than winning Paris Roubaix. Doesn't mean sh*t. And if your logic for saying that the green jersey is a hard fought 3 week battle while FW is a 1 day uphill sprints, how can you say that winning the WC RR is more prestigious than winning the Vuelta? Okay, WC requires a lot more tactics, but it's still fairly similar in that it's a one day race, and at the end of the day, is one which rewards being from a big nation
Back in the 20th century, Vuelta didn't mean much, but in modern times, even the Vuelta is very very prestigious.

Because you get to wear the rainbow jersey for an entire year. That adds a lot of publicity and money to a rider. The WC is also the main goal of many cyclists each year, while almost no one targets the Vuelta as a main goal. It's usually an afterthought. You can't be in top shape for both the Tour and Vuelta. This means the Vuelta almost never has the best riders in the world in top shape at the line.

I wouldn't know if winning on the Champs Elysees earns you more publicity than Paris-Roubaix, but in the end it's just a crit-race, so even if it does, I don't value it highly.
 
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Re: Re:

Mr.White said:
El Pistolero said:
Mr.White said:
El Pistolero said:
@Mr White

The green jersey is a grueling three week battle in the biggest cycling race of the world, while FW is a boring uphill sprint. Yes, I know what I'd rather win. Did you watch today's stage? I hope you have.

Every points competition is a joke, including Tour's and can't be compared to any big classic which Fleche Wallonne certainly is! I also know what I'd rather win, and it's not some stupid classification for sure! I guess you started to hate FW when Valverde started to win there?

FW is not a big classic. It used to be one back in the seventies, but nowadays it's a boring race that takes place on Wednesday when everybody is working. I hate FW because it's a boring race that always ends in an uphill sprint where the strongest wins, there is little tactics involved.

At the eve of LBL 2011 Gilbert said "I'd trade in all my wins so far this season for a win at LBL". That should give you an indication what pro riders think of FW.

And no, not every points competition is a joke. Why do you think Kittel, Cav and Sagan are fighting for the green jersey? When Boonen won the green jersey in the Tour the Belgian press exploded here. When Gilbert won the FW in 2011 it was just a mere footnote in an unbelievable string of wins. Winning the green jersey earns you a lot more publicity than FW, I can tell you that.

And what else sprinters would do? They have 4-5 sprint stages, and what would they do apart from that? They got this silly competition... And I'm sure if Gilbert could win Fleche nowadays press would explode for several reasons (he rarely wins these days, and we all know who the strongest is ;) )

Belgian press doesn't care for FW. Belgians don't care for it either. It takes place on a work day, that's how "prestigious" FW is.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
@DFA

CQ ranking is meaningless, it overvalues top ten places in races. Only wins matter when you're talking about the top 5 cyclists in the peloton, don't kid yourself. And Contador obviously has a much better palmares than Gilbert, so that shows you how flawed cqranking is.
Well that's all your opinion, which isn't necessarily objective. Of course, I respect it and can see where you're coming from with what you say, but I think it's just one perspective. Some riders and some fans will value being competitive in 20 races a year more than winning just one or two big ones. CQ and PCS ranking systems attempt to reach a balance between all the different viewpoints.
 
Re: Re:

We are talking about a rider who is the best... may for some decades and even all the time.

What we discuss thise riders?
Contrador - greatest GC rider since Miguel Indurain (1982)
Boonen - greatest Cobbled stone rider all the time (Wins in PR, TF, E3, GW)
Cancellara - top 5 spring classic rider all the time and greatest time trailist from 2006 to 2010.
Valverde - well... good in B-L-B..but.. could perform in Grand Tour but...Never won WC, No Tdf... Best all rounder all the time?... No.. see sean kelly, Nibali

Then, there are :
Cavendish - greatest Sprinter all the time
Chris froome - may take over Contrador
Peter Sagan - unknown....
 
Re: Re:

toolittle said:
We are talking about a rider who is the best... may for some decades and even all the time.

What we discuss thise riders?
Contrador - greatest GC rider since Miguel Indurain (1982)
Boonen - greatest Cobbled stone rider all the time (Wins in PR, TF, E3, GW)
Cancellara - top 5 spring classic rider all the time and greatest time trailist from 2006 to 2010.
Valverde - well... good in B-L-B..but.. could perform in Grand Tour but...Never won WC, No Tdf... Best all rounder all the time?... No.. see sean kelly, Nibali

Then, there are :
Cavendish - greatest Sprinter all the time
Chris froome - may take over Contrador
Peter Sagan - unknown....

For me, a best all rounder must be...
strong in Cobbled stone, GT, TT, Sprint and climbing classic...
Sean Kelly is the best all rounder except eddy merkx
 
From a bookkeeper's point of view:
1) Valverde
2) Contador
3) Cancellara
4) Boonen

But I'm not a bookkeeper, I'm a cyclingfan. I want to be entertained by exciting racing, if possible from far out and in the biggest races. So, for me:

1) Contador
2) Boonen
3) Cancellara
4) Valverde
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Because you get to wear the rainbow jersey for an entire year. That adds a lot of publicity and money to a rider. The WC is also the main goal of many cyclists each year, while almost no one targets the Vuelta as a main goal. It's usually an afterthought. You can't be in top shape for both the Tour and Vuelta. This means the Vuelta almost never has the best riders in the world in top shape at the line.

Valid points, but that's the result of the Tour and the Giro being even more important than the still extremely prestigious Vuelta.

A bit like noone really targets and turns up in top form at races such as Strade GW E3 Omloop AGR FW; they're super important but ultimately are warm ups for the monuments.

And as far as publicity goes, the Tour provides 80% of all publicity gained by road cyclists in a calendar year, with the final stage on the champs elysees being by far the biggest for sponsors. Yes publicity is vital, but it's not a good way to measure the importance of races. Fwiw, I do agree that the green jersey is a bigger prize than FW, but the Vuelta is, in my opinion at least, a bigger achievement than WC RR
 
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Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
El Pistolero said:
Because you get to wear the rainbow jersey for an entire year. That adds a lot of publicity and money to a rider. The WC is also the main goal of many cyclists each year, while almost no one targets the Vuelta as a main goal. It's usually an afterthought. You can't be in top shape for both the Tour and Vuelta. This means the Vuelta almost never has the best riders in the world in top shape at the line.

Valid points, but that's the result of the Tour and the Giro being even more important than the still extremely prestigious Vuelta.

A bit like noone really targets and turns up in top form at races such as Strade GW E3 Omloop AGR FW; they're super important but ultimately are warm ups for the monuments.

And as far as publicity goes, the Tour provides 80% of all publicity gained by road cyclists in a calendar year, with the final stage on the champs elysees being by far the biggest for sponsors. Yes publicity is vital, but it's not a good way to measure the importance of races. Fwiw, I do agree that the green jersey is a bigger prize than FW, but the Vuelta is, in my opinion at least, a bigger achievement than WC RR


Green jersey is in my opinion nowhere near Fleche Wallonne, or any other WT classic with a longer history (GW, Amstel). It may be comparable to some "younger" WT classics (San Sebastian, E3) or slightly ahead of some (Canadian classics, Plouay, Hamburg). Vuelta is bigger than WC RR which is the biggest one-day race, but not much...
 
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You guys greatly overestimate the worth of the Vuelta. Who had the best season last year: Fabio Aru or Peter Sagan? Just because it lasts 3 weeks doesn't make it more important than the rainbow jersey. The Vuelta will always be the least prestigious Grand Tour. Nibali for example rather rides the Tour in preparation for Rio than target the Vuelta GC.

Where do you guys get the idea that FW is so prestigious anyway?

- It takes place on a Wednesday, when most people are at work.
- It's only 196 km long, that is not a classics distance.
- It is boring to watch, no action happens before the final climb.
- There's no room for tactics, the strongest rider always wins. This makes the race predictable.

The only thing it has nowadays is its history, but it obviously is not as prestigious anymore as in the past, when it rivaled Liège-Bastogne-Liège. More and more riders are even skipping the race and focus only on AGR and/or LBL.
 
Re:

El Pistolero said:
You guys greatly overestimate the worth of the Vuelta. Who had the best season last year: Fabio Aru or Peter Sagan?

If Peter Sagan did nothing all year but win the WC, and Aru did nothing all year but win the Vuelta: Aru.

If Sagan won the green jersey, had a number of high finishes in a large variety of races, 10 wins and top 5 in 2 monuments, while Aru 'only' got a Vuelta win and Giro runner's up: Sagan
 
Re:

El Pistolero said:
You guys greatly overestimate the worth of the Vuelta. Who had the best season last year: Fabio Aru or Peter Sagan?

That make the point..
This system trend to overweight 2nd best...
For example, Veulta like a loser game for the tour. Veulta is important. Only star level riders could win it.
I could say... Top 5 riders in the tour could win Giro. Top 10 riders in the tour could win Veulta.

Trust me.
If Contador focus on Veulta and Giro, he might have won 12 GT already
If Nibalia focus on Veulta and Giro, he might have won 6 GT already
If Quantana focus on Veulta and Giro, he might have won 4 GT already
André Greipel may won more GT stages if he skip Tour and focus on Giro and Veulta, he might have won 40 GT stage already.
 
In the past, sure, Vuelta was less important than WCRR and even most, if not all, of the monuments.

But it's becoming more and more important in recent years. It's categorisation as a Grand Tour is slowly but surely pulling it closer and closer to the prestige and importance of the Giro and the Tour: the two most important races on the calendar (inb4 people disagree with that as well)
 
Re: Re:

What is important race? It is the market (publicity or memory) to define NORMALLY.
Of course, you could consider a win in national championship is important than TDF stage. It is a personal taste.

My preference is :
1. Tour (Most important cycling events, most important GT)
2. Olympic (once per 4 years version of WC)
3. World Championship (Most important one day classic. You could consider it is a once per year version of climbing + sprint classic)
4. Paris Roubaix (Most important Cobbled stone)
5. Giro
6. Veulta
7. Other monuments

Why?
1. Tour is the most important races in cycling world. It is NBA in . It is worldcup in football.
2. Olympic once in 4 years. High publicity. People will remember who won Olympic.
3. World Championship once every year. High publicity. And it counts after many years. People will count who was WC.
4. Paris Roubaix, the most important Cobbled stone.

Then, we will remember who is the best in each disciplines... such as tours, climbing, cobbled stone, sprints.
Best ever rider, Best ever GTer, best ever classic rider, best ever cobbled stone rider. best ever sprinter.

If you are the best GTer, you will target the tour yellow jersey rather than Giro Pink.
If you are the best classic, you will target Olympic/WC if the route fit.
If you are the best sprinter, you will targer Green jersey rather than Grio red
If you are the best cobbled store rider, you will target Paris roubaix rather than TRO – BRO LEON

A world Championship of Track event compared with a world championship of road event. Which one is more important? A olympic championship of track event compared with LBL championship, which one is more important?

See the market make some races have more market value. Best riders will target most important races.
 
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Seriously what is Contador's name even doing in this list. Number one by a mile, only deluded fanboys and haters will claim otherwise.
 
Re: Re:

See sir bradley wiggins and sir Mark Cavendish choice...
If sir bradley have the power to win the tour again, he won't target Olympic.
If Olympic may spoil his preparation of the Tour, Mark might skip Olympic.
Armstrong targets only the tour never Veulta or Giro.
Philippe Gilbert spent a whole season planning for a world champion win. Lambordi no longer his target.

Track events world champions try to ride world tour as a Domestique... Why?
 
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Re: Re:

toolittle said:
El Pistolero said:
You guys greatly overestimate the worth of the Vuelta. Who had the best season last year: Fabio Aru or Peter Sagan?

That make the point..
This system trend to overweight 2nd best...
For example, Veulta like a loser game for the tour. Veulta is important. Only star level riders could win it.
I could say... Top 5 riders in the tour could win Giro. Top 10 riders in the tour could win Veulta.

Trust me.
If Contador focus on Veulta and Giro, he might have won 12 GT already
If Nibalia focus on Veulta and Giro, he might have won 6 GT already
If Quantana focus on Veulta and Giro, he might have won 4 GT already
André Greipel may won more GT stages if he skip Tour and focus on Giro and Veulta, he might have won 40 GT stage already.

Well I read couple of your posts, and I don't trust you at all!
 
1. Valverde
2. Contador
3. Cancellara
4. Boonen


Valverde may not have the biggest palmares, while the sheer amount of victories is extremely big for a non-sprinter. He has won the toughest one-day race three times, has gotten on the podium of the WC a record 6 (!) times, showing his extreme consistency. The same for his constant performances at the Vuelta, often after difficult Tours. And victories in San Sebastian, FW, many podiums in AGR and Lombardia should also not be forgotten.
The strongest because you see him from february to november, he even shows himself in races like Strade!

Contador has been the biggest GT-rider of his era, and GT's are the most important things in cycling. In his best years he could outrace everybody, even beat a top Cancellara in a time trial. I rank him second after Valverde only because stage races are unfortunately the only thing he does, apart from 1 podium in FW we never see him doing anything special in one-day races.

Cancellara has just been a monster for years with such a motor which is just amazing. The fact that he more than once just has outraced a raging peleton in the biggest races shows what a beast he can be. For me he has been the best cobbled-racer of this time, his limited amount of victories coming only because of specializing in the Belgian classics quite late + many unfortunate crashes. Furthermore he was the best TT'er for years, one of the best domestiques one can think of for the Schlecks and his many podiums at la Primavera are also astounding. He also won Olympic Gold + I will never forget how he came back at the 2008 RR in a very hilly parcours.

Boonen has a great palmares and has won Flanders and Roubaix many times. However I think he does not really belong in this group, because he has not shown a lot since his early years (till 2007/2008) after april. And if one most be honest, the peloton which rides the Belgian races are not even close to being as good as the peloton at LBL and the Tour. For a one-day racer Boonen has not shown enough at the WC. Yes he has won one, and both Valverde and Fabian would change their podiums for the rainbow jersey. But since Madrid Tommeke hasn't shown anything at the World's, and it is a pity.
Tom is one of the nicest guys in the peloton I believe though, he is always honest, nice and humble in interviews. It's mainly the Flemish press which makes him a demi-God, something he is not totally comfortable with I believe.