Rank 1-4: Boonen, Cancellara, Contador & Valverde

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

WC is WC. I think it should be treated as one, otherwise everything gets so biased by how much we liked the way the race was won it takes away the whole point of discussing different races altogether. Then you're close to arguing Vuelta 2012>Tour 2012, etc.

I'm not stopping you from having more fond memories of watching one or the other.

Fair enough, but I think there can be room for a more nuanced view. Quality of opposition should certainly have a bearing when rating the best riders. There is no way that Cavendish's WC is equal to Rui Costa's for example - sprinting was so weak at that time that it was basically a walkover.

Likewise, Gilbert's 2011 has always been slighlty diminished for me, as the two best Ardennes specialists of his generation were both absent.

Gilbert being Mr. Cauberg would have won that WC anyway.

I think you can diminish almost every big victory because of other great riders being absent or out of shape. Is Boonens WC victory diminished because Freire was injured?

Valverde was present when Gilbert won the WC, he finished third. Gilbert also won stage 9 and 19 in the Vuelta that year, where Valverde finished 6th and 2nd respectively.

Yeah, I wasn't talking about 2012, but about his 2011 triple. Padded out his palmares nicely against sub par opposition there.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

WC is WC. I think it should be treated as one, otherwise everything gets so biased by how much we liked the way the race was won it takes away the whole point of discussing different races altogether. Then you're close to arguing Vuelta 2012>Tour 2012, etc.

I'm not stopping you from having more fond memories of watching one or the other.

Fair enough, but I think there can be room for a more nuanced view. Quality of opposition should certainly have a bearing when rating the best riders. There is no way that Cavendish's WC is equal to Rui Costa's for example - sprinting was so weak at that time that it was basically a walkover.

Likewise, Gilbert's 2011 has always been slighlty diminished for me, as the two best Ardennes specialists of his generation were both absent.

Gilbert being Mr. Cauberg would have won that WC anyway.

I think you can diminish almost every big victory because of other great riders being absent or out of shape. Is Boonens WC victory diminished because Freire was injured?

Valverde was present when Gilbert won the WC, he finished third. Gilbert also won stage 9 and 19 in the Vuelta that year, where Valverde finished 6th and 2nd respectively.

Yeah, I wasn't talking about 2012, but about his 2011 triple. Padded out his palmares nicely against sub par opposition there.

You mean Andy Schleck who won LBL in 2009? If anything, Valverde's competition was subpar in 2015.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Valverde did do one thing for which I was delighted at the time. He throttled Lance in the sprint atop Courchevel in the 2005 Tour. I remember Lance was winding up his overanimated Lance sprint that worked against Basso and Kloden and had the look of someone who thought he had the stage in the bag. Then Valverde came around him making him look like a Cat 2. It was great!!

One of my favorite cycling moments too!

 

[geargbest]

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

 

[Pennino]

Well, according to Boonen the best riders of his generation are Contador and Valverde, which puts Boonen third and Cancellara fourth.

 

[Bardamu]

Re:

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

So how has Boonen shown anything outside the cobbled classics to name him (with Spartacus) the best classics rider of his generation?

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

So how has Boonen shown anything outside the cobbled classics to name him (with Spartacus) the best classics rider of his generation?

6 Tour stages, Green Jersey in the Tour, 2 Vuelta stages, 2 National Championship titles (one in the ardennes against Philippe Gilbert) and a World Championship title. Also had 2 podiums in Milan-San Remo. Pretty sure that's better than that one Vuelta win.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

So how has Boonen shown anything outside the cobbled classics to name him (with Spartacus) the best classics rider of his generation?

6 Tour stages, Green Jersey in the Tour, 2 Vuelta stages, 2 National Championship titles (one in the ardennes against Philippe Gilbert) and a World Championship title. Also had 2 podiums in Milan-San Remo. Pretty sure that's better than that one Vuelta win.

But pretty sure it's not better than one Vuelta win, five Vuelta podiums, Tour podium, Giro podium, 4 Tour stages, Giro stage, 9 Vuelta stages, and 3 Vuelta points classifications. In fact, it's not a contest at all!

 

[Valv.Piti]

Valverde's performance is really put into perspective when you saw just how much Contador struggled in '11 and '15.

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

So how has Boonen shown anything outside the cobbled classics to name him (with Spartacus) the best classics rider of his generation?

6 Tour stages, Green Jersey in the Tour, 2 Vuelta stages, 2 National Championship titles (one in the ardennes against Philippe Gilbert) and a World Championship title. Also had 2 podiums in Milan-San Remo. Pretty sure that's better than that one Vuelta win.

His stage victories in Tour/Vuelta does not make him a better classics rider.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

So how has Boonen shown anything outside the cobbled classics to name him (with Spartacus) the best classics rider of his generation?

6 Tour stages, Green Jersey in the Tour, 2 Vuelta stages, 2 National Championship titles (one in the ardennes against Philippe Gilbert) and a World Championship title. Also had 2 podiums in Milan-San Remo. Pretty sure that's better than that one Vuelta win.

His stage victories in Tour/Vuelta does not make him a better classics rider.

And who is a better classics rider according to you?

The guy won 7 Monuments and a World Championships. Never mind the shitload of (semi-)classics he also won.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

So how has Boonen shown anything outside the cobbled classics to name him (with Spartacus) the best classics rider of his generation?

6 Tour stages, Green Jersey in the Tour, 2 Vuelta stages, 2 National Championship titles (one in the ardennes against Philippe Gilbert) and a World Championship title. Also had 2 podiums in Milan-San Remo. Pretty sure that's better than that one Vuelta win.

But pretty sure it's not better than one Vuelta win, five Vuelta podiums, Tour podium, Giro podium, 4 Tour stages, Giro stage, 9 Vuelta stages, and 3 Vuelta points classifications. In fact, it's not a contest at all!

It actually is. Who cares about second or third when you're talking about the best riders of the sport? Only Valverde fans it seems. Vuelta point jerseys, really scraping the barrel there.

 

[Valv.Piti]

You are incredible, Pistolero.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion. Not to mention that Paris-Roubaix is considered more prestigious in the peloton than Liège-Bastogne-Liège.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion.

Interesting and non-biased take

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion.

Would you name them, please! Actually Valverde has more WT level wins then Boonen...

And you're arguably the only person who thinks that Valverde doesn't belong in this list out of 40-50 posters. In fact many of them thinks he's No.2 or 3. I think this speaks enough...

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion.

Would you name them, please! Actually Valverde has more WT level wins then Boonen...

And you're arguably the only person who thinks that Valverde doesn't belong in this list out of 40-50 posters. In fact many of them thinks he's No.2 or 3. I think this speaks enough...

Going by that logic, Cav is the greatest rider in the peloton

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion.

Would you name them, please! Actually Valverde has more WT level wins then Boonen...

And you're arguably the only person who thinks that Valverde doesn't belong in this list out of 40-50 posters. In fact many of them thinks he's No.2 or 3. I think this speaks enough...

I made a thread recently and the majority said Nibali had a better palmares than Valverde.

Boonen:

World Championship road race: 2005
Paris-Roubaix: 2005, 2008, 2009, 2012
Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2005, 2006, 2012
Gent-Wevelgem: 2004, 2011, 2012
E3 Harelbeke: 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012
Green jersey in the Tour de France: 2007 (+ 6 stages)

Number of big wins: 17. If we only look at Monuments, WC and GTs (which are the biggest races in the sport): 8.

Valverde:

Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 2006, 2008, 2015
Flèche Wallonne: 2006, 2014, 2015, 2016
Clasica San Sebastian: 2008, 2014
Vuelta: 2009
Dauphiné: 2008, 2009
Volta a Catalunya: 2009

Number of big wins: 13. If we only look at GTs, Monuments and WC: 4.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion.

Would you name them, please! Actually Valverde has more WT level wins then Boonen...

And you're arguably the only person who thinks that Valverde doesn't belong in this list out of 40-50 posters. In fact many of them thinks he's No.2 or 3. I think this speaks enough...

I made a thread recently and the majority said Nibali had a better palmares than Valverde.

Boonen:

World Championship road race: 2005
Paris-Roubaix: 2005, 2008, 2009, 2012
Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2005, 2006, 2012
Gent-Wevelgem: 2004, 2011, 2012
E3 Harelbeke: 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012
Green jersey in the Tour de France: 2007 (+ 6 stages)

Number of big wins: 17. If we only look at Monuments, WC and GTs (which are the biggest races in the sport): 8.

Valverde:

Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 2006, 2008, 2015
Flèche Wallonne: 2006, 2014, 2015, 2016
Clasica San Sebastian: 2008, 2014
Vuelta: 2009
Dauphiné: 2008, 2009
Volta a Catalunya: 2009

Number of big wins: 13. If we only look at GTs, Monuments and WC: 4.

E3 2004,05,06,07 was not a WT (so no big win). Green Jersey is not a win at all, let alone big one! :surprised: So Boonen has 11 big wins.

Valverde won Romandie 2010 on the road, and as I saw that you count this wins (in Contador's case), we will add this one and that makes 14 for Valverde. Is that the double amount in Boonen's favor?! Please help me with this!

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion.

Would you name them, please! Actually Valverde has more WT level wins then Boonen...

And you're arguably the only person who thinks that Valverde doesn't belong in this list out of 40-50 posters. In fact many of them thinks he's No.2 or 3. I think this speaks enough...

Going by that logic, Cav is the greatest rider in the peloton

You're right ofcourse. I'm only trying to make a point to El Pistolero about Boonen and Valverde's big wins. You'll see in my post above...

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

You are incredible, Pistolero.

Hardly, facts are Boonen has more than double the amount of big wins than Valverde. Same goes for Cancellara and Contador. He clearly doesn't belong in this discussion.

Would you name them, please! Actually Valverde has more WT level wins then Boonen...

And you're arguably the only person who thinks that Valverde doesn't belong in this list out of 40-50 posters. In fact many of them thinks he's No.2 or 3. I think this speaks enough...

I made a thread recently and the majority said Nibali had a better palmares than Valverde.

Boonen:

World Championship road race: 2005
Paris-Roubaix: 2005, 2008, 2009, 2012
Ronde van Vlaanderen: 2005, 2006, 2012
Gent-Wevelgem: 2004, 2011, 2012
E3 Harelbeke: 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012
Green jersey in the Tour de France: 2007 (+ 6 stages)

Number of big wins: 17. If we only look at Monuments, WC and GTs (which are the biggest races in the sport): 8.

Valverde:

Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 2006, 2008, 2015
Flèche Wallonne: 2006, 2014, 2015, 2016
Clasica San Sebastian: 2008, 2014
Vuelta: 2009
Dauphiné: 2008, 2009
Volta a Catalunya: 2009

Number of big wins: 13. If we only look at GTs, Monuments and WC: 4.

E3 2004,05,06,07 was not a WT (so no big win). Green Jersey is not a win at all, let alone big one! :surprised: So Boonen has 11 big wins.

Valverde won Romandie 2010 on the road, and as I saw that you count this wins (in Contador's case), we will add this one and that makes 14 for Valverde. Is that the double amount in Boonen's favor?! Please help me with this!

Green jersey is not a big win yet Clasica San Sebastian is? Lol! Do you know any cyclist crazy enough that he'd rather win the CSS than the green jersey in the Tour de France?

And it doesn't matter if E3 Harelbeke wasn't WT, the best riders for the cobbles always lined up for it. Again, always has been a bigger race than the Clasica San Sebastian. Or other "WT" one-day races like the GP Plouay or Vattenfal Cyclassics. The WT sucks because according to that ranking the Tour Down Under is as prestigious as Liège-Bastogne-Liège. Don't be blinded by it. I said big wins, not WT wins. Roubaix in 2008 wasn't even part of the UCI Pro Tour because of a dispute with ASO. Does that make the race any less prestigious? No, because it's a useless ranking. I consider Cancellara's Strade Bianche win bigger than Valverde's FW win this year, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Oh and here's Gilbert's big wins:

World Championship road race: 2012
Giro di Lombardia; 2009, 2010
Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 2011
Amstel Gold Race: 2010, 2011, 2014
Flèche Wallonne: 2011
Clasica San Sebastian: 2011
GP de Quebec: 2011
Paris-Tours: 2008, 2009
Omloop het Volk: 2006, 2008
Brabantse Pijl: 2011, 2014
Montepaschi Strade Bianche: 2011
Tour of Beijing: 2014

And yes, I consider Omloop and Strade Bianche to be bigger wins than a Clasica San Sebastian (or a Tour of Beijing), at least they're properly televised. I also remember Gilbert's Paris-Tours win in 2009 against Boonen much better than any of Valverde's CSS wins.

 

[Mr.White]

Marino Lejarreta, Claude Criquielion, Miguel Indurain, Gianni Bugno, Claudio Chiappucci, Lance Armstrong, Davide Rebellin, Francesco Casagrande, Laurent Jalabert, Paolo Bettini, Philippe Gilbert and of course Alejandro Valverde All winners of San Sebastian! E3 was maybe a bigger race in the 80's, but just maybe. From 90's and the World Cup it's not a contest at all!

As for a green jersey, well I only know couple of sprinters who want to win that jersey. The same guys who contest Hamburg Classic, so there's your answer. Valverde himself could won it multiple times if he wanted!

And I see you're mentioning Gilbert time and time again, which is really funny stuff. Gilbert is a Ardennes specialist, who lives at the foot of La Redoute and focus every year on that races. Yet some GT rider from Spain, easily beats his record by some margin. You really shouldn't mention him and Valverde in the same conversation, cause the difference is not small!

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

I feel Valverde falls betwen two chairs judged up against these juggernauts. Beeing a good Gt rider and a great classic rider doesnt compare to the greatest GT rider of our generation and the best classics riders of our generation. But it is exactly that uncommon talent of beeing good at both along with his palmares which I do think Valverde deserves 4 place as the 4 greatest rider of our generation, not higher in any regards but above other riders.

So how has Boonen shown anything outside the cobbled classics to name him (with Spartacus) the best classics rider of his generation?

6 Tour stages, Green Jersey in the Tour, 2 Vuelta stages, 2 National Championship titles (one in the ardennes against Philippe Gilbert) and a World Championship title. Also had 2 podiums in Milan-San Remo. Pretty sure that's better than that one Vuelta win.

His stage victories in Tour/Vuelta does not make him a better classics rider.

And who is a better classics rider according to you?

The guy won 7 Monuments and a World Championships. Never mind the shitload of (semi-)classics he also won.

I'd rate Spartacus, Gilbert and Valverde higher.

The thing is, Boonen's season ends after April since 2008/2009.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Marino Lejarreta, Claude Criquielion, Miguel Indurain, Gianni Bugno, Claudio Chiappucci, Lance Armstrong, Davide Rebellin, Francesco Casagrande, Laurent Jalabert, Paolo Bettini, Philippe Gilbert and of course Alejandro Valverde All winners of San Sebastian! E3 was maybe a bigger race in the 80's, but just maybe. From 90's and the World Cup it's not a contest at all!

As for a green jersey, well I only know couple of sprinters who want to win that jersey. The same guys who contest Hamburg Classic, so there's your answer. Valverde himself could won it multiple times if he wanted!

And I see you're mentioning Gilbert time and time again, which is really funny stuff. Gilbert is a Ardennes specialist, who lives at the foot of La Redoute and focus every year on that races. Yet some GT rider from Spain, easily beats his record by some margin. You really shouldn't mention him and Valverde in the same conversation, cause the difference is not small!

Lombardia is a nicer race than LBL anyway.

Valverde could never win the green jersey, man how biased are you? Take a look at the winners of E3 Harelbeke, all big names. Kwiatkowski, Sagan, Boonen, Cancellara, Geraint Thomas, Pozzato, etc. That's 3 world champions on the list in recent years. CSS is poorly televised and organized, and has low viewer ratings. It's a wonder it's still WT. Compare the last 16 winners of the CSS with those of the E3: E3 clearly has bigger names on its palmares.

 

[Bardamu]

Re: Re:

Marino Lejarreta, Claude Criquielion, Miguel Indurain, Gianni Bugno, Claudio Chiappucci, Lance Armstrong, Davide Rebellin, Francesco Casagrande, Laurent Jalabert, Paolo Bettini, Philippe Gilbert and of course Alejandro Valverde All winners of San Sebastian! E3 was maybe a bigger race in the 80's, but just maybe. From 90's and the World Cup it's not a contest at all!

As for a green jersey, well I only know couple of sprinters who want to win that jersey. The same guys who contest Hamburg Classic, so there's your answer. Valverde himself could won it multiple times if he wanted!

And I see you're mentioning Gilbert time and time again, which is really funny stuff. Gilbert is a Ardennes specialist, who lives at the foot of La Redoute and focus every year on that races. Yet some GT rider from Spain, easily beats his record by some margin. You really shouldn't mention him and Valverde in the same conversation, cause the difference is not small!

Lombardia is a nicer race than LBL anyway.

Valverde could never win the green jersey, man how biased are you? Take a look at the winners of E3 Harelbeke, all big names. Kwiatkowski, Sagan, Boonen, Cancellara, Geraint Thomas, Pozzato, etc. That's 3 world champions on the list in recent years. CSS is poorly televised and organized, and has low viewer ratings. It's a wonder it's still WT.

It's a build-up race for Flanders, so ofcourse big names will win it. I'm not rating Amstel higher than I should solely because it has had great winners during the years?