Rank the top 5 cyclists from your country by palmares

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I'm really too uneducated about the Dutch glory years of cycling....

Rough guess

1. Zoetemelk
2. Jansen
3. Raas
4. Dumoulin
5. Knetemann

Dumoulin will probably end up on top here, would guess Terpstra is bottom end of top 10?

I have no freaking clue. Paging Dutch Maffia to please educate me.

I have to say, for one of the 'big' cycling countries, that's a pretty meh list. At least compared with the superstars that make up the discussion for France, Italy, Belgium, Spain etc...

Even a Luxembourg top 5 might be stronger.

The Netherlands really aren't in the same league as Italy, Belgium, France and Spain though. Never were. I think currently they are having one of their best ever generations (Dumoulin, van der Poel, Terpstra...). If you compare classics wins and GT wins to that of those countries, there is a pretty big gap.

Yeah, I wonder why that is. Because the enthusiasm and love of cycling has been there for a long time. Perhaps its just too flat to produce decent stage racers and, until recently there weren't the same opportunities to regularly train abroad as someone looking to make it as a pro.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

I'm really too uneducated about the Dutch glory years of cycling....

Rough guess

1. Zoetemelk
2. Jansen
3. Raas
4. Dumoulin
5. Knetemann

Dumoulin will probably end up on top here, would guess Terpstra is bottom end of top 10?

I have no freaking clue. Paging Dutch Maffia to please educate me.

I have to say, for one of the 'big' cycling countries, that's a pretty meh list. At least compared with the superstars that make up the discussion for France, Italy, Belgium, Spain etc...

Even a Luxembourg top 5 might be stronger.

The Netherlands really aren't in the same league as Italy, Belgium, France and Spain though. Never were. I think currently they are having one of their best ever generations (Dumoulin, van der Poel, Terpstra...). If you compare classics wins and GT wins to that of those countries, there is a pretty big gap.

Yeah, I wonder why that is. Because the enthusiasm and love of cycling has been there for a long time. Perhaps its just too flat to produce decent stage racers and, until recently there weren't the same opportunities to regularly train abroad as someone looking to make it as a pro.

I added to my previous post. Only 5 GT wins combined (2x Vuelta, 2x Tour, 1x Giro), but a slightly better classics run (10x RVV, 6x PR...). The country being flat, shouldn't keep them from winning more Paris-Roubaix for instance, especially compared to 56 Belgian victories.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

I'm really too uneducated about the Dutch glory years of cycling....

Rough guess

1. Zoetemelk
2. Jansen
3. Raas
4. Dumoulin
5. Knetemann

Dumoulin will probably end up on top here, would guess Terpstra is bottom end of top 10?

I have no freaking clue. Paging Dutch Maffia to please educate me.

I have to say, for one of the 'big' cycling countries, that's a pretty meh list. At least compared with the superstars that make up the discussion for France, Italy, Belgium, Spain etc...

Even a Luxembourg top 5 might be stronger.

The Netherlands really aren't in the same league as Italy, Belgium, France and Spain though. Never were. I think currently they are having one of their best ever generations (Dumoulin, van der Poel, Terpstra...). If you compare classics wins and GT wins to that of those countries, there is a pretty big gap.

Yeah, I wonder why that is. Because the enthusiasm and love of cycling has been there for a long time. Perhaps its just too flat to produce decent stage racers and, until recently there weren't the same opportunities to regularly train abroad as someone looking to make it as a pro.

I think our reputation as huge cycling country comes more out reputation as country where everyone cycles to work, most bikes per capita, cycling lanes everywhere, than the professional cyclists we've produced.

 

[macbindle]

I think you are doing the Dutch down a little there. Certainly when I first became interested in cycling in the 70s, the Dutch were out of the same mould as the Belgians. Real hard men, people like Peter Post.

These days cycling has been diluted by the Anglo invasion

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

I think you are doing the Dutch down a little there. Certainly when I first became interested in cycling in the 70s, the Dutch were out of the same mould as the Belgians. Real hard men, people like Peter Post.

These days cycling has been diluted by the Anglo invasion

In the history of the sports, they simply are nowhere near the other big countries. That's just how it is, that's not selling them short. They have had many good riders, and there were some stronger generations, but the fact that you have to refer back 40 years should tell you something. Their current generations of GC riders is something many countries would be jealous of. Dumoulin is the only one i see winning the TDF, but Giro/Vuelta... this generation could potentially add to the Dutch tally. If MvdP decides to ride classics in the future, they would have a strong contender there as well. He could win MSR, PR, RVV, AGR...

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

1. Nairo Quintana
2. Lucho Herrera
3. Cochise Rodriguez
4. Esteban Chaves
5. Santiago Botero, Fabio Parra, Rigoberto Uran

The difference in eras makes this really hard. Not to mention that some spent the majority of their careers in Colombia doesn't make it any easier.

All number 5 goes ahead of Chaves. No way Chaves is better than Parra and Uran.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

1 Rolf Sørensen
2 Bjarne Riis
3 Michael Rasmussen
4 Ole Ritter
5 Jakob Fuglsang

I'm sure this will have completely changed in five years' time.

Valgren is already knocking.

Was Riis Tour taken away?

 

[Nick C.]

1. Lemond
2. Armstrong
(Major Taylor if we are including turn of th elast century track riders)
3. Hampsten
4. Davis Phinney
5. Leipheimer

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

1. Nairo Quintana
2. Lucho Herrera
3. Cochise Rodriguez
4. Esteban Chaves
5. Santiago Botero, Fabio Parra, Rigoberto Uran

The difference in eras makes this really hard. Not to mention that some spent the majority of their careers in Colombia doesn't make it any easier.

All number 5 goes ahead of Chaves. No way Chaves is better than Parra and Uran.

It all depends how much you value certain wins. Chaves is the lone winner of a monument and has podium finishes in grand tours, just like the others.

 

[ciranda]

Re:

1 Rolf Sørensen
2 Bjarne Riis
3 Michael Rasmussen
4 Ole Ritter
5 Jakob Fuglsang

I'm sure this will have completely changed in five years' time.

Valgren is already knocking.

1 Rolf Sørensen
2 Michael Rasmussen
3 Leif Mortensen / Jakob Fuglsang
5 Ole Ritter

Mortensen slightly better than Ritter but stopped racing far too early, he has said so himself too.

Riis with the Froome-like transformation is a virus to this day so don't want to consider him.

 

[Leinster]

You're dead right on both fronts. One last thing: doesn't he have a family connection with S.Roche?

Stephen Roche’s sister is Dan Martin’s mother. Martin is first cousin to Nicolas Roche.

 

[shalgo]

Canada:

1. Ryder Hesjedal
2. Steve Bauer
3. Michael Woods
4. Svein Tuft
5. Dominique Rollin or Guillaume Boivin

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Laurent Jalabert
4. Louison Bobet
5. Raymond Poulidor

Laurent Fignon over Raymond Poulidor.

Yes and Bobet ahead of Jalabert.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Australia, from memory so probably gonna make some heinous errors.......

1. Cadel Evans
2. Phil Anderson
3. Robbie McEwan
4. Simon Gerrans
5. Richie Porte
6. Stuart O'Grady
7. Michael Matthews
8. Matt Goss (one monument gets you a long way....)
9. Matt Haymen (ditto)
10. Baden Cooke
11. Caleb Ewan
12. Rohan Dennis
13. Brad McGee

You’ve got most of the right names there but the order is a little out of whack. Most obvious is Gerrans should be higher than McEwen and Ewan below Dennis and McGee. Goss is above Matthews too, for now IMO. Then there’s Michael Rogers.

Well Gerrans won two monuments, two more than McEwen who was prolific in grand tour stages and had placings in classics, and the Worlds too I think like Goss. The first two are easy picks. Matt Goss what an enigma, some might say wasted talent. Matthew Lloyd would probably be number 14 along with Stephen Hodge and Pat Jonker but what about Mick Rogers ? Has to be top 10 at least. Also Clyde Sefton had an Olympic silver medal in the 1972 road race. Has to be top 15 or so just for that result.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

1 Rolf Sørensen
2 Bjarne Riis
3 Michael Rasmussen
4 Ole Ritter
5 Jakob Fuglsang

I'm sure this will have completely changed in five years' time.

Valgren is already knocking.

1 Rolf Sørensen
2 Michael Rasmussen
3 Leif Mortensen / Jakob Fuglsang
5 Ole Ritter

Mortensen slightly better than Ritter but stopped racing far too early, he has said so himself too.

Riis with the Froome-like transformation is a virus to this day so don't want to consider him.

I consider Jesper Skibby and Kim Andersen as better riders than Leif Mortensen and Ole Ritter.

But Rolf as #1 and Bjarne as #2 is pretty much impossible to dispute, if you ask me.

Fuglsang and Rasmussen are very equal in palmares. Both could be 3rd/4th.

 

[slosada]

Re: Re:

1. Nairo Quintana
2. Lucho Herrera
3. Cochise Rodriguez
4. Esteban Chaves
5. Santiago Botero, Fabio Parra, Rigoberto Uran

The difference in eras makes this really hard. Not to mention that some spent the majority of their careers in Colombia doesn't make it any easier.

All number 5 goes ahead of Chaves. No way Chaves is better than Parra and Uran.

I agree, I do value more an olympic medal and a podium in TdF.
Cochise has an impressive Latin American palmares, and records and medals in track. But his results in Europe were 2 stages and 2 classics and 1 TT.

 

[Lauritz]

Norway:

1. Alexander Kristoff
2. Thor Hushovd
3. Knut Knudsen
4. Edvald Boasson Hagen
5. Jostein Wilmann

I'm having a hard time separating Hushovd and Kristoff. However, Kristoff's two monuments beats Hushovd's WC triumph and TdF success in my opinion.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

1. Nairo Quintana
2. Lucho Herrera
3. Cochise Rodriguez
4. Esteban Chaves
5. Santiago Botero, Fabio Parra, Rigoberto Uran

The difference in eras makes this really hard. Not to mention that some spent the majority of their careers in Colombia doesn't make it any easier.

All number 5 goes ahead of Chaves. No way Chaves is better than Parra and Uran.

I agree, I do value more an olympic medal and a podium in TdF.

Chaves has a Monument. Uran has more best loser finishes.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Re:

1/ Merckx
2/ Van Looy
3/ De Vlaeminck
4/ Van Steenbergen
5/ Boonen

I guess something like that.

EDIT: Philippe Thys was the only cyclist to win the TDF before (x2) and after (x1) WWI, if it weren't for the war, he would probably hold the record (same could be said for Bartali and WWII). But on the other hand, cycling prior to the 60-70s was a different animal. There are plenty of names that could be added to the list, and when i see other lists include obvious clinic cases, then some could argue Museeuw should be added to the Belgian list. But i refuse, lol.

Tough to classify after Merckx and Van Looy.

Freddy Maertens could be argued. The Iron Briek is probably top 10 for me. Marcel Kint is another interesting case but not top 5 either.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

1. Nairo Quintana
2. Lucho Herrera
3. Cochise Rodriguez
4. Esteban Chaves
5. Santiago Botero, Fabio Parra, Rigoberto Uran

The difference in eras makes this really hard. Not to mention that some spent the majority of their careers in Colombia doesn't make it any easier.

All number 5 goes ahead of Chaves. No way Chaves is better than Parra and Uran.

I agree, I do value more an olympic medal and a podium in TdF.

Chaves has a Monument. Uran has more best loser finishes.

Depends on the perception. I'll take the second.

As for the comment about Cochise is correct as well. However is the time when he did it. He became like our cycling ambassador in Europe. Along the same lines where would you put Rafael Niño? it is a pity the era during which he lived.

 

[dick the quick]

Re: Re:

1. R. Szurkowski
2. S. Szozda
3. M. Kwiatkowski
4. R. Majka
5. Z. Jaskuła

1. Kwiatkowski
2. Jaskuła
3. Majka
4. Spruch
5. Piasecki

Results of Szurkowski and Szozda are incomparable

True. No real comparison between ancient amateurs and curent professional riders.

My pick:

1. Kwiatkowski (WC RR, MSR, several other one day WT race wins: Amstel, Strade x 2, E3, plus Tirreno-Adriatico GC)
2. Majka (3 x TdF stage wins, 2 x KoM in TdF, 3rd in Vuelta GC, bronze medal in Olympic Games RR, several top ten GC placings in Giro, Tour de Pologne GC)
3. Jaskuła (3rd in TdF GC + TdF stage win)
4. Piasecki (5 x Giro stage win)
5. really don't know: Marczyński? Bodnar? Niemiec?

As Kwiatkowski, Majka, Marczyński, Bodnar and Niemiec are still active riders, this ranking may change significantly from one race to another.

 

[Oliwright]

1.G
2.Rowe or Doull
4.....

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Spain (no doubt this will be controversial):

1. Valverde
2. Indurain
3. Contador
4. Purito
5. Freire (though this one could easily be Heras/Bahamontes/Ocaña/Delgado)

It is. Valverde above Indurain? Really?

Well, the top three are obviously the top three in some order. And Indurain has to come above Contador. Where Valverde comes in that list I guess depends how highly you rate one day wins vs stage races and total volume of wins/podium finishes.

For me versatility and range of wins gives a more impressive palmares than just winning one kind of race. Otherwise Purito shouldn't really be in the top 5 either.

If you're talking sheer number of wins that is the correct order. Valverde 118, Indurain 99, and Contador 79 (I know it's less than Indurain but still a high number). Then add in the sheer number of podiums and crazy records Valverde holds such as record number of Ardennes podiums, record number of Worlds podiums, record number of Ardennes doubles, along with records wins for Fleche Wallone, Murcia, and Andalucia. One short of the record for wins at LBL, one short of the record of green jerseys at the Vuelta, one short of the record podiums at la Vuelta. He's also got the record for most time between first and most recent wins at Fleche Wallone, LBL, la Vuelta, and Ardennes doubles along with record for most number of years between first and most recent podiums at both the Worlds and la Vuelta. So he's got some really unusual records to go with his palmares.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

1 Rolf Sørensen
2 Bjarne Riis
3 Michael Rasmussen
4 Ole Ritter
5 Jakob Fuglsang

I'm sure this will have completely changed in five years' time.

Valgren is already knocking.

Yay, fun game!
But Rasmussen and Ritter over Fuglsang? Come on.

4x stage Tour de France ('07, '06, '05)
stage Vuelta a Espana ('03)
7th GC Tour de France ('05)
7th GC Vuelta a Espana ('03)
stage Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré ('04)
stage Vuelta a Burgos ('02)
2nd stage Tour de France ('07)
14th GC Tour de France ('04)

VS.

3x GC Post Danmark Rundt-Tour of Denmark ('10, '09, '08)
GC Critérium du Dauphiné ('17)
GC Skoda-Tour de Luxembourg ('12)
GC Int. Osterreich-Rundfahrt-Tour of Austria ('12)
GC Tour De Slovénie ('09)
2nd Olympic Games Road Race ('16)
2x stage Critérium du Dauphiné ('17)
2nd GC Tour de Suisse ('18)

Eh, I really don't think you're making the case, you think you are, if this is supposed to indisputably prove that the better rider Rasmussen was worse than Fuglsang.

And to ciranda: You might feel how you will about Riis but the guy won the Tour in the most toxic era of cycling - he probably was not doing anything others weren't and unless you want to discard all riders from the 90s and noughties, he of course belongs in the top 2.

But I don't think he was as good as Rolf who also seems like a much better and certainly more likeable person (not that it has two much relevance of course).

I did consider Leif Mortensen as well but certainly not Kim Andersen or Jesper Skibby. Bo Hamburger and Matti Breschel are probably above them.

 

[AnatoleNovak]

Re: Re:

1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Laurent Jalabert
4. Louison Bobet
5. Raymond Poulidor

Laurent Fignon over Raymond Poulidor.

Yes and Bobet ahead of Jalabert.

I took a closer look at their palmares and I think I overrated Jalabert, so:
1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Louison Bobet
4. Raymond Poulidor
5. Laurent Fignon

I keep Poulidor ahead of Fignon but I understand that you rank him above if you look only at victories and not at podiums.