Rate the 2012 Vuelta a España route

[Descender]

Yeah, in my mind, it was a little tactical concession for the sake of a big strategical benefit, considering the next stage. I don't know any other GT rider, who would try to close such attack, being in the situation Evans turned out to be. Very smart riding by him.

Yeah it was very smart of him to let Nibali go, then pull for 20kms with Basso sucking his wheel.

 

[airstream]

Yeah it was very smart of him to let Nibali go, then pull for 20kms with Basso sucking his wheel.

Some scenario with lesser sacrifice?

 

[The Hitch]

Basso cut the opponents into two halves on that stage. In terms of GC the decent factor had only a nominal meaning. As well as Evans would never let Nibali go on the decent from Monte Grappa if it had his primarily goal.

You do realise Evans was already dropped on the Grappa. Once Nibali threw in an attack he did not have the energy left.

ofc not, after all you are discussing with airstream . . .

now airstream did you just said on your last post that evans let nibali go on the monte grappa stage and pretty much "offered" him the stage win? because if thats actually what you are trying to say than that's one of the most hilarious things ever posted on this forum

Yeah. IF Evans had gifted Nibali the stage he would have instead been competing with Basso for the bonus seconds. But he wasnt. Why? Because he was absolutely exhausted of trying with Scarponi to bring back the Shark.

 

[The Hitch]

Some scenario with lesser sacrifice?

No, he lost 12 seconds to Basso rather than gaining 12 seconds. Thats 24 seconds right there, his entire advantage from the first tt, evaporated.

seens like a totally different scenario.

 

[Eshnar]

Some scenario with lesser sacrifice?

Follow Nib on the descent and then wheelsuck 'til the finish.

 

[airstream]

Oh, clearly I put forward my point and appreciate Evans' tactical skill, assuming he wasn't too good on that day. But the climb gave us such alignment of forces. The descent just crowned Nibali's downhill edge. IMO, Evans could but he decided not to try cos there was the risk to drop himself.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Lol, how many GC contenders could actually do that? Samu, maybe Valverde, that's it.

Evans is a pretty good descender amongst GC riders. He was made to look average by Nibali on Grappa, and then amateurish by Arroyo on Mortirolo. But Evans is still a good descender. Those guys are just super descenders who were on good days. The reasons? Both times he'd gone absolutely into the red on the previous mountain. Though descending is more about technique than brute power, extreme effort hurts the ability to apply that technique. Nibali attacking meant Basso could use Scarponi and Evans as guides. There was no tactical decision by Evans. It was great tactics by Liquigas - Nibali was too threatening to let go too far, so Evans and Scarponi had to blow themselves up, giving Basso a free ride, meaning Basso was freshest when the two tried to follow him on Zoncolán the next day. Evans' tactics in the Grappa stage at that point didn't extend beyond "can't let Nibali get too far ahead, but can't run risk of hurting myself if I screw this up".

And if you weren't excited by the descent finish with Sagan catching Cunego in the Tour de Suisse, I don't know what you want from the sport.

 

[airstream]

I'm getting confused honestly. Very likely all of you are right. Possibly a descent is just the 10th thing in cycling for me personally or even less important. Though, in my opinion, the case about Evans and Nibali is not so obvious.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm getting confused honestly. Very likely all of you are right. Possibly a descent is just the 10th thing in cycling for me personally or even less important. Though, in my opinion, the case about Evans and Nibali is not so obvious.

You're an Andy Schleck fan, of course descents are of no importance to you.

I don't see what is so difficult about the Grappa descent. Liquigas had two cards to play, the other teams had one, and Nibali could descend better than them. Because Liquigas had two cards to play, Basso could afford to do no work, which Evans and Scarponi couldn't, and because of this Basso won the next day. Not exactly rocket science. As regards Evans playing it tactically and letting Nibali go, well...

Let's look at the things Evans can do better than Basso.

TT: not relevant here.
Descend: Evans is a better descender than Basso. Evans was made to look rather foolish by Arroyo on Mortirolo, but he still gained time on Basso that day, and that's a Basso being led by the fearless Nibali too. So something must be up for Evans not to take time out of Basso here, considering that Evans would definitely want to take time out of Basso given that this is an area he holds the advantage in, and Basso can afford to shirk his duties as long as they're together, whereas if Evans is ahead Basso has to work. If Evans was riding within himself tactically to not drop Basso on the descent, it was a stupid tactic.
Sprint: Evans is no mug in a sprint; Basso really is. Evans would want to beat Basso because bonus seconds are on the line, and Evans was still clearly a big threat to win the race at this point. Evans would beat Basso 99 times out of 100 in a head to head sprint, and vital GC seconds are on the line, yet Basso won the sprint. Why? Well, Evans certainly didn't lose time to Basso that way (or Scarponi, who he could often outsprint too) out of tactics. If Evans lost the sprint even after riding within himself to not drop Basso on the descent, he's a complete idiot and an incompetent cyclist ruled over by tacticians from Little Bighorn.

 

[Parrulo]

Yeah, in my mind, it was a little tactical concession for the sake of a big strategical benefit, considering the next stage. I don't know any other GT rider, who would try to close such attack, being in the situation Evans turned out to be. Very smart riding by him.

i don't think there is any hope for you my friend

 

[airstream]

i don't think there is any hope for you my friend

For what? Such a brilliant understanding of cycling like yours?

 

[Anonymous]

Ive started mapping the stages.

Prologue
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1381544

Stage 2
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382396

Stage 3
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382423

Stage 4
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382449

Stage 5
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382468

Routes are approximate but on the whole reflect the course. More to be added as I do them (if anyone wants to lend a hand feel free, its rather time consuming)

 

[greenedge]

What i am looking forward to is all the hilly stages being dominated by Gilbert.
And he will do the Vuelta ( as he is serious about the WC this time )

 

[airstream]

As regards Evans playing it tactically and letting Nibali go, well...

Let's look at the things Evans can do better than Basso.

TT: not relevant here.
Descend: Evans is a better descender than Basso. Evans was made to look rather foolish by Arroyo on Mortirolo, but he still gained time on Basso that day, and that's a Basso being led by the fearless Nibali too. So something must be up for Evans not to take time out of Basso here, considering that Evans would definitely want to take time out of Basso given that this is an area he holds the advantage in, and Basso can afford to shirk his duties as long as they're together, whereas if Evans is ahead Basso has to work. If Evans was riding within himself tactically to not drop Basso on the descent, it was a stupid tactic.
Sprint: Evans is no mug in a sprint; Basso really is. Evans would want to beat Basso because bonus seconds are on the line, and Evans was still clearly a big threat to win the race at this point. Evans would beat Basso 99 times out of 100 in a head to head sprint, and vital GC seconds are on the line, yet Basso won the sprint. Why? Well, Evans certainly didn't lose time to Basso that way (or Scarponi, who he could often outsprint too) out of tactics. If Evans lost the sprint even after riding within himself to not drop Basso on the descent, he's a complete idiot and an incompetent cyclist ruled over by tacticians from Little Bighorn.

Even so, I think, they feel the others' strength very nicely during the race and see many things that we can't estimate. As far as I understood it, Evans pointed out Basso as a key rival and let Nibali go, changing the lesser evil. Naturally I evaluated Evans' tactics in terms of circumstances and his сonditions, not in terms of the result of the stage. Thanks for attempts to bring your vision. I'm afraid we won't reach a consensus.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Even so, I think, they feel the others' strength very nicely during the race and see many things that we can't estimate. As far as I understood it, Evans pointed out Basso as a key rival and let Nibali go, changing the lesser evil. Thanks for attempts to bring your vision. I'm afraid we won't reach a consensus.

So if he saw Basso as the key rival, why on earth would he fail to take advantage of a situation where he is faced by two of the disciplines in the sport where he is vastly superior to Basso? If it was a tactical decision, it was a terrible one, because you're saying that because he saw Basso as a threat, he decided to not take time out of Basso, and let Basso take time out of him in a situation where he ought to expect to take time out of Basso.

 

[airstream]

So if he saw Basso as the key rival, why on earth would he fail to take advantage of a situation where he is faced by two of the disciplines in the sport where he is vastly superior to Basso? If it was a tactical decision, it was a terrible one, because you're saying that because he saw Basso as a threat, he decided to not take time out of Basso, and let Basso take time out of him in a situation where he ought to expect to take time out of Basso.

Because it is a hard mission to drop someone on a descent, even for a rider, having relatively good downhill ability. Did you see many times one GC contender dropping other one exactly on a descent? Especially on the descent like that - 400m staight-tornante-straight, - requiring certain power capabilities, which Evans apparently didn't have on that day. In different conditions and tiredness someone's advantage in some component (sprint/descending) can be defined very nominally. Klodi and Samu, Andy and Samu, Samu and Samu, lots of examples...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But then, if it was tiredness that prevented him from dropping Basso and caused him to lose the sprint, it wasn't tactics, was it? A GC rider's tactics book should not include "become too knackered to beat Ivan Basso in a sprint".

And besides, if he was conserving energy by letting Nibali go, you'd think he'd have some energy left to contend that sprint, since 12 seconds were at stake.

And if he conserved so much energy, you wonder why he then got spanked by Basso the following day too.

 

[Descender]

Because it is a hard mission to drop someone on a descent, even for a rider, having relatively good downhill ability. Did you see many times one GC contender dropping other one exactly on a descent? Especially on the descent like that - 400m staight-tornante-straight, - requiring certain power capabilities, which Evans apparently didn't have on that day. In different conditions and tiredness someone's advantage in some component (sprint/descending) can be defined very nominally. Klodi and Samu, Andy and Samu, Samu and Samu, lots of examples...

You don't get it... I don't think anyone here is saying descents themselves are the cream of the crop. Descending for the sake of descending doesn't cut it, usually. It's the big picture that gives a well-designed stage finishing after a descent more potential to be an epic stage than any other kind.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Ive started mapping the stages.

Prologue
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1381544

Stage 2
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382396

Stage 3
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382423

Stage 4
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382449

Stage 5
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1382468

Routes are approximate but on the whole reflect the course. More to be added as I do them (if anyone wants to lend a hand feel free, its rather time consuming)

Thanks for posting something on topic

These routes look a lot more mountainous than I expected. All could provide good racing, and stage 3 should provide an early GC sort out. Much criticism has been made of stage 4, but I don't see an issue with it. My reason for this is that we have 6 or 7 MTF's - therefore some of them should be different; a shallow climb such as this is fine to include, and can provide different riders with a chance to win the stage. It's not as if there are only 3 MTF's and one of them is this relatively easy climb.

 

[Anonymous]

Next bunch of maps done

Stage 6
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1383172

Stage 7
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1383402

Stage 8
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1383413

Stage 9
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1383428

Stage 10
http://www.bikemap.net/route/1383445

 

[roundabout]

Re stage 6. The finish is up an Alpe d'Huez like road above the "H Alta Resolucion del Pireneo" sign on the map.

http://www.bikemap.net/route/1383172#lat=42.57881&lng=-0.53309&zoom=14&type=0

 

[Anonymous]

Re stage 6. The finish is up an Alpe d'Huez like road above the "H Alta Resolucion del Pireneo" sign on the map.

http://www.bikemap.net/route/1383172#lat=42.57881&lng=-0.53309&zoom=14&type=0

cheers. For some reason that road wasnt showing up on my map view. Changed to sat and could see it.

That profile now looks spot on.

All of these might be a bit off, without official maps theres only so much can be done, but on the whole they match all of the intermediate towns along with way withing a kilometre or so.

if anyone has corrections feel free to detail them. Im getting as close as I can.