Rate the 2015 Tour route!

[Eshnar]

geez, I really need to write a LONG post. Will do it later. For now, I just want to tell you that with Huy, cobbles and Bretagne there is 0% chance of a sprinter getting yellow (unless you mean uphill sprinter). But that is the last of my problems.

 

[ILovecycling]

Keep calm and believe in Giro eshnar
Still its a better race than tour...always so much passion,I hope I will make my first visit next year

 

[barmaher]

The crime is how they managed to put this route in after getting a very good route in Tour 2014. It is not like they don't know how to draw a good course.

Here are 4 tweaks to make the race better. And to stop people taking about money, start and finish lines are the same.

1. Swap the ITT and the TTT. So a 14km TTT on day 1, and a 28km ITT on Day 9.
2. A super tough 250km stage. Why not Pau to Cauterets, via Bales, Peyresoude, Val Louron-Azet, Hourquette d'Anzican and Tourmalet?
3. Turn the La Toussuire stage into a circa 30km ITT, with 20km in the valley followed by the climb.
4. Put another climb and another 40km extra into the Pra Loup stage.

I don't have an issue with any of the mountain stages....it is just they are horrible as a package. The two changes above would sit much better with me,

We need more ITT, and we need to NOT HAVE A TTT AFTER A FREAKING COBBLES STAGE AND A FULL WEEK OF MAYHEM.

 

[hrotha]

John, the value of the ITTs is not the immediate entertainment they provide, which for most people is pretty low, but the gaps they create among the favourites, which forces at least some of them to do something in the mountains before the last km. We know what happens when there are only small gaps, because we've seen it countless times: people are extremely conservative.

ITTs are essential to have good mountain stages.

 

[greenedge]

No podium for Quintana this year.

I'm confused, why not?
If he can't win on this route with 14km ITT, which will be the route that suits him most for the next 5 years at least. THere's also Alpe D Huez and PDB for the long climbs he needs, he should be fine here.

 

[Arnout]

21 stages, 3344 km:

This makes me sad. Only two days with time trials and the amount of km is about 200km less than normal... It makes me so sad and angry that shortening of stages apparently is seen as the only way to combat doping (which is bull**** ofcourse), in the meantime destroying the sport I love

John, the value of the ITTs is not the immediate entertainment they provide, which for most people is pretty low, but the gaps they create among the favourites, which forces at least some of them to do something in the mountains before the last km. We know what happens when there are only small gaps, because we've seen it countless times: people are extremely conservative.

ITTs are essential to have good mountain stages.

Yes, and this is why I like a good TT after most or all mountain stages. It keeps the pressure on.

 

[Coat-O]

I'm confused, why not?
If he can't win on this route with 14km ITT, which will be the route that suits him most for the next 5 years at least. THere's also Alpe D Huez and PDB for the long climbs he needs, he should be fine here.

Lots of crosswind stages, the cobble stage, punchy uphill finishes with bonus secs (Quintana is more of an engine climber).

 

[King Boonen]

Looks good to me, almost like a blank canvas and ASO saying to the teams "go win it on the road". Cycling is a team sport and that will be a big factor here, protecting keys riders in the first week, riding sensibly but not losing out in the cross-winds or on bonuses, we could be in for some great racing.

There are no real, massive mountain stages, but I don't see that at as a problem. Recently, every year it's possible to say who is going to win the tour within the first week. That's not a bike race, it's a procession. These stages seem designed so that even guys like Costa and Kwiatkowski might be in with a shot if they race intelligently, Purito also gets a final shot at the big prize?

The reducing distances? What has been the biggest scourge of cycling in the past few decades? That's what has fuelled the epic battles and ridiculous ability of these riders to cover huge distances day in, day out. If we want that to change we have to accept that shorter stages are a good first step. Leave the long distances to the one day races, where riders can leave it all on the road at the finish line and recuperate.

Tiny ITT? I'm not opposed to it. Just like the WC's can't be designed to suit every style of rider, maybe it's time the Tour encouraged some guys other than the mountain goats who can TT to have a real shot at it? I still think the TTing goats will win, but it has the possibility to make for some entertaining riding.

The TTT is against UCI rules. It would be sensible for the UCI to insist it is brought forward, but we'll wait and see if it is.

All in all I think it's a nice deviation from what we have come to expect and I'm hopeful it will work. I get irritated with the race organisers who fiddle with the classics routes, but the GTs are a place where I really don't mind it. I'm looking at this as an experiment. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but lets give ASO/Prudhomme some props for at least trying it.

 

[Eshnar]

The reducing distances? What has been the biggest scourge of cycling in the past few decades? That's what has fuelled the epic battles and ridiculous ability of these riders to cover huge distances day in, day out. If we want that to change we have to accept that shorter stages are a good first step. Leave the long distances to the one day races, where riders can leave it all on the road at the finish line and recuperate.

oh my God not this **** again. Haven't you been reading the forum at every route presentation?

 

[King Boonen]

oh my God not this **** again. Haven't you been reading the forum at every route presentation?

Yes, I have, but how about you make a point rather than some abstract reference where a posters comment is to be weighted by how much they remember from several years previous postings.

I'll even start a topic in the clinic so we can discuss it properly if you like?

 

[Eshnar]

Yes, I have, but how about you make a point rather than some abstract reference where a posters comment is to be weighted by how much they remember from several years previous postings.

I'll even start a topic in the clinic so we can discuss it properly if you like?

If you have read it already, I don't see the point of repeating, but I'll try anyway, trying to be as PRR-friendly as possible.

Riders cheat to win. They don't cheat to "survive". Any amateur is physically able to race any GT route in the last 30 years.

Making shorter stages won't change the fact that riders will cheat to win. They will cheat for recovery, because recover will always be important, they will cheat also to go faster if sheer speed becomes an important factor.

Sprinters have been found cheating in the past. They did not cheat because a 150 kms flat stage is inhuman.

Countless 100m athletes have been busted. Those people are generally able to celebrate their wins by keeping running all around the stadium, so I assume they're not so tired after the race.

What I never read, though, is a counter argument to our point.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, that post was so utterly wrong it's not even funny. The distances thing aside, climbers have been favoured a lot by GT courses lately, and even if they hadn't, what's the big idea behind making it so that any mediocre rider has a shot at the prize?

 

[Ferminal]

Not to mention the years gone by with longer distances were characterised by substances which have shorter periods of effectiveness... Yet the so called "scourge" of modern cycling is actually something that lasts for days/weeks. Of course Anquetil would love to have access to today's treats. I guess my point is back then the distances were long enough to overcome some of the predictability which performance management delivers us. If you think that predictability is around today and a bad thing then you need to go in the opposite direction and extend things beyond what performance management is capable of neutralising.

 

[King Boonen]

Yeah, that post was so utterly wrong it's not even funny. The distances thing aside, climbers have been favoured a lot by GT courses lately, and even if they hadn't, what's the big idea behind making it so that any mediocre rider has a shot at the prize?

Is this directed at me? If so I think you got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[King Boonen]

If you have read it already, I don't see the point of repeating, but I'll try anyway, trying to be as PRR-friendly as possible.

Riders cheat to win. They don't cheat to "survive". Any amateur is physically able to race any GT route in the last 30 years.

Making shorter stages won't change the fact that riders will cheat to win. They will cheat for recovery, because recover will always be important, they will cheat also to go faster if sheer speed becomes an important factor.

Sprinters have been found cheating in the past. They did not cheat because a 150 kms flat stage is inhuman.

Countless 100m athletes have been busted. Those people are generally able to celebrate their wins by keeping running all around the stadium, so I assume they're not so tired after the race.

What I never read, though, is a counter argument to our point.

Not to mention the years gone by with longer distances were characterised by substances which have shorter periods of effectiveness... Yet the so called "scourge" of modern cycling is actually something that lasts for days/weeks. Of course Anquetil would love to have access to today's treats. I guess my point is back then the distances were long enough to overcome some of the predictability which performance management delivers us. If you think that predictability is around today and a bad thing then you need to go in the opposite direction and extend things beyond what performance management is capable of neutralising.

I can't answer those posts here, but I've started a clinic thread if you wish to discuss it there.

 

[Ferminal]

I can't answer those posts here, but I've started a clinic thread if you wish to discuss it there.

There is a clinic thread from 2011.

Or '10

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=10855

 

[barmaher]

The marathon has lots of dopers. Let's reduce the distance to 100m.

Because nobody would dope at that distance.



EDIT
Just saw my post was more or less made above, I will go off to the clinic to resume the battle.

 

[LaFlorecita]

A TTT but almost no ITT, time bonuses, cobbles. How else can we lessen the correlation between the winner and strongest rider?

Must admit, don't like the sense that the biggest factor in sorting out the pack will probably be weather, cobbles and crashes.

+1000 , good points

 

[daveyt]

I hope the easy route will mean more aggressive racing.

 

[barmaher]

It has certainly boosted aggression levels on this forum.

 

[hrotha]

I hope the easy route will mean more aggressive racing.

Smaller gaps = less aggressive racing.

 

[daveyt]

I thought Paris-Nice last year was a better without any massive climbs. Very rare much happens before the final climb anyway, it's an experiment for sure, hope it works.

Time bonuses are good.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Must admit, don't like the sense that the biggest factor in sorting out the pack will probably be weather, cobbles and crashes.

If you think weather, cobbles and crashes are the main factors, than maybe you think Boonen and Cancellara are the favourites for this TDF? I'm quite sure the climbs will be the main factor is sorting out the pack.....

If Contador loses too much time in echelons and on the cobbles, it's just his own fault for being too weak. Dealing with the weather and the cobbles are first and foremost skills.If all Contador can do is climb, he should just go target the polka dot jersey or something. But hey, I think he can do more than just climb and I'm quite sure he climbs well enough to be able to earn back any time he loses on the cobbles and in the weather when the mountains come. If he can't, he'll just be beaten fair and square by a better rider.

 

[LaFlorecita]

If you think weather, cobbles and crashes are the main factors, than maybe you think Boonen and Cancellara are the favourites for this TDF? I'm quite sure the climbs will be the main factor is sorting out the pack.....

If Contador loses too much time in echelons and on the cobbles, it's just his own fault for being too weak. Dealing with the weather and the cobbles are first and foremost skills.If all Contador can do is climb, he should just go target the polka dot jersey or something. But hey, I think he can do more than just climb and I'm quite sure he climbs well enough to be able to earn back any time he loses on the cobbles and in the weather when the mountains come. If he can't, he'll just be beaten fair and square by a better rider.

That is something we'll never agree on

 

[OlavEH]

I thought Paris-Nice last year was a better without any massive climbs. Very rare much happens before the final climb anyway, it's an experiment for sure, hope it works.

Time bonuses are good.

Tour de France isn't the same as Paris-Nice. And several of the best mountain stages the last years in GTs have been those stages with several massive climbs. Like the ones in the Giro to Tre Cime and Val di Fassa. And in the 2011 Tour to Galibier. If you have no mountains before the MTF or long stretches of flat between the two last climbs, it's almost a guruantee you won't have any action.