- Feb 20, 2010
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People use the difficulty of bike racing as a convenient excuse for easy routes and conservative racing, but it has little to no actual bearing on why there's such a history of doping in the sport (which there is, and I don't think this is a statement that belongs in the Clinic, we're not discussing the actual ins and outs of doping and who is at it, just acknowledging that the sport has a history of it). People cheat to run 100m in a straight line.
Sports science, both legitimate and Clinic-related, has improved massively over the years, so using "it's too hard for people to do without cheating" as an excuse for dumbing down is organizers and race designers trying to justify their own lack of imagination. The 2009 Vuelta was very conservatively raced. Was it because it was too hard? No, it was because they paced the mountain stages all wrong, so riders were afraid of losing time on the steep MTF at La Pandera, meaning they soft-pedalled the much better-designed Velefique stage so as not to be tired for it. The 2009 Tour was very conservatively raced. Was it because it was too hard? No, it was one of the worst TDF designs of all time. It was raced that way because one team was stupendously dominant and would have controlled the race easily no matter what route you put there.
Shall we have a look at the stages that have produced the best stages of recent GTs? Yes, there are some short ones in there, but there are also some very decidedly NOT short ones. Yes, there's Formigal in the 2016 Vuelta, Semnoz in the 2013 Tour, Andalo in the 2016 Giro and Alpe d'Huez in the 2011 Tour, but many of these were created by circumstance. Semnoz and Alpe d'Huez were the last chance for the climbers, so they weren't the product of the short stage so much as desperation to make the bid for victory (same for Nairo's unsuccessful attack in the 2015 Tour); after all, Cercedilla in the 2015 Vuelta was great for the same reason, but was a full length stage, just as with Sestrières in the 2005 Giro with the epic introduction of Finestre. Similarly, ending with a big mountain will work if the best climber left in the race has a deficit (Bola del Mundo 2010, for example), but if they already lead, it's often just a damp squib (Zoncolan 2014, Mont Ventoux 2009, even Tonale in the beloved 2010 Giro, as it paid the price for the amazing Aprica stage the day before). Here, Angliru 2013 is almost the outlier although that can't really be considered a "short stage" either, though it's far from a big long-distance mountain stage.
Outside of these situations, however, there is little to suggest that these short stages are significantly better at the pro level (the jury's still out on this at the espoir level at Avenir etc. - the last stage of l'Avenir this year was shorter than a women's semitappe though). The Sestri Levante stage of the 2015 Giro is one of the few examples of this approach working outside of week 3 of a GT, where the GC gaps are already well-set and the legs are already well-worn - for it is that that is why they have worked, and if all the stages drop in length, then they cease to have any value because riders don't see them as any better a chance for racing than any other stage, and riders' legs aren't tired enough for them to have that impact. The short stages work best in conjunction with other stages. The Alpe d'Huez stage in 2011 does not work without the Galibier stage the previous day; put those stages the other way around and nobody GC-relevant lifts a finger until Bourg d'Oisans. The Formigal stage wouldn't have worked without the Aubisque stage, because Froome's domestiques wouldn't have wilted around him without having had to work the previous day over four cat.1 and ESP mountains, so Movistar and Tinkoff would have desisted and it would have been a 4km shootout on the steepest part of the final climb. In fact, one of the best mountain stages we've seen where the GC wasn't immediately on the line like in these short stages was 230km with five major mountains.
Without the long, difficult stages, these short fast hard stages don't have the same value. Very little to do with the Clinic, and everything to do with route pacing and the situation on the GC leading into it.
Sports science, both legitimate and Clinic-related, has improved massively over the years, so using "it's too hard for people to do without cheating" as an excuse for dumbing down is organizers and race designers trying to justify their own lack of imagination. The 2009 Vuelta was very conservatively raced. Was it because it was too hard? No, it was because they paced the mountain stages all wrong, so riders were afraid of losing time on the steep MTF at La Pandera, meaning they soft-pedalled the much better-designed Velefique stage so as not to be tired for it. The 2009 Tour was very conservatively raced. Was it because it was too hard? No, it was one of the worst TDF designs of all time. It was raced that way because one team was stupendously dominant and would have controlled the race easily no matter what route you put there.
Shall we have a look at the stages that have produced the best stages of recent GTs? Yes, there are some short ones in there, but there are also some very decidedly NOT short ones. Yes, there's Formigal in the 2016 Vuelta, Semnoz in the 2013 Tour, Andalo in the 2016 Giro and Alpe d'Huez in the 2011 Tour, but many of these were created by circumstance. Semnoz and Alpe d'Huez were the last chance for the climbers, so they weren't the product of the short stage so much as desperation to make the bid for victory (same for Nairo's unsuccessful attack in the 2015 Tour); after all, Cercedilla in the 2015 Vuelta was great for the same reason, but was a full length stage, just as with Sestrières in the 2005 Giro with the epic introduction of Finestre. Similarly, ending with a big mountain will work if the best climber left in the race has a deficit (Bola del Mundo 2010, for example), but if they already lead, it's often just a damp squib (Zoncolan 2014, Mont Ventoux 2009, even Tonale in the beloved 2010 Giro, as it paid the price for the amazing Aprica stage the day before). Here, Angliru 2013 is almost the outlier although that can't really be considered a "short stage" either, though it's far from a big long-distance mountain stage.
Outside of these situations, however, there is little to suggest that these short stages are significantly better at the pro level (the jury's still out on this at the espoir level at Avenir etc. - the last stage of l'Avenir this year was shorter than a women's semitappe though). The Sestri Levante stage of the 2015 Giro is one of the few examples of this approach working outside of week 3 of a GT, where the GC gaps are already well-set and the legs are already well-worn - for it is that that is why they have worked, and if all the stages drop in length, then they cease to have any value because riders don't see them as any better a chance for racing than any other stage, and riders' legs aren't tired enough for them to have that impact. The short stages work best in conjunction with other stages. The Alpe d'Huez stage in 2011 does not work without the Galibier stage the previous day; put those stages the other way around and nobody GC-relevant lifts a finger until Bourg d'Oisans. The Formigal stage wouldn't have worked without the Aubisque stage, because Froome's domestiques wouldn't have wilted around him without having had to work the previous day over four cat.1 and ESP mountains, so Movistar and Tinkoff would have desisted and it would have been a 4km shootout on the steepest part of the final climb. In fact, one of the best mountain stages we've seen where the GC wasn't immediately on the line like in these short stages was 230km with five major mountains.
Without the long, difficult stages, these short fast hard stages don't have the same value. Very little to do with the Clinic, and everything to do with route pacing and the situation on the GC leading into it.
- Feb 20, 2010
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Re:
The current trend for short stages works up to a point, and if all the stages are short it won't, because those stages won't be different from the others anymore, which is part of the reason they've worked, just as going back to the well too often on a successful climb will nullify its value because the riders learn how to race it, where to attack, where to defend, and how to pace themselves, so when everybody's looking to the same spots to make their moves they end up neutralizing one another. Just think - if the Pyrenees hadn't been raced so badly in 2011, Andy Schleck would never have gone so early to Galibier, so riders would have waited until the final climb of that stage, and nobody would have been as tired, meaning moves the following day wouldn't have happened until Alpe d'Huez and the fad wouldn't have taken off; likewise, if Contador doesn't get suspended for the 2012 Tour, he races it, the Fuente Dé move - if he even does the Vuelta - fails, we get Purito and Valverde competing over who can leave it furthest into the final kilometre of Bola del Mundo to race for the GC, and we don't get the 150km murito-fetishizing trend either. These are both products of circumstances, ideas which might not have worked but due to a set of circumstances that applied to that race, they were successes so that formula has been repeated.
Maybe if Contador hadn't been suspended, the last couple of mountain stages of the 2012 Tour are exciting as he attempts to Fuente Dé his way around as Sky try to protect their lead, and instead that is the formula that we see repeated over and over. Or Contador's clen test doesn't go public, he doesn't enter the 2011 Giro and instead goes straight to the Tour, is leading the race after Galibier and so the Alpe d'Huez stage is a damp squib and the 110km stages are abandoned as an idea just as the "two 50km TTs and limited MTFs" template was abandoned after the failure of spectacle that was the 2012 Tour. We'll never know.
While undoubtedly there are some to whom the Steve Houanard principle applies, those cheating at the forefront of competition are not doing so to survive the course but to do it faster than their opponents just as the 100m sprinters do. People completed the courses in the days of much more primitive sports science and without the current fad for short stages with long transfers being needed to make it possible. The best also did it with much less domestique protection and often with heavier racing calendars (although the number of secondary and minor short stage races done by the big names was reduced and the season was somewhat shorter I guess). Riders used to do the Vuelta and Giro back to back when the Vuelta was in April - two GTs with a week's break! - although in fairness the Vuelta was mainly medium mountains until the 70s.kingjr said:
The current trend for short stages works up to a point, and if all the stages are short it won't, because those stages won't be different from the others anymore, which is part of the reason they've worked, just as going back to the well too often on a successful climb will nullify its value because the riders learn how to race it, where to attack, where to defend, and how to pace themselves, so when everybody's looking to the same spots to make their moves they end up neutralizing one another. Just think - if the Pyrenees hadn't been raced so badly in 2011, Andy Schleck would never have gone so early to Galibier, so riders would have waited until the final climb of that stage, and nobody would have been as tired, meaning moves the following day wouldn't have happened until Alpe d'Huez and the fad wouldn't have taken off; likewise, if Contador doesn't get suspended for the 2012 Tour, he races it, the Fuente Dé move - if he even does the Vuelta - fails, we get Purito and Valverde competing over who can leave it furthest into the final kilometre of Bola del Mundo to race for the GC, and we don't get the 150km murito-fetishizing trend either. These are both products of circumstances, ideas which might not have worked but due to a set of circumstances that applied to that race, they were successes so that formula has been repeated.
Maybe if Contador hadn't been suspended, the last couple of mountain stages of the 2012 Tour are exciting as he attempts to Fuente Dé his way around as Sky try to protect their lead, and instead that is the formula that we see repeated over and over. Or Contador's clen test doesn't go public, he doesn't enter the 2011 Giro and instead goes straight to the Tour, is leading the race after Galibier and so the Alpe d'Huez stage is a damp squib and the 110km stages are abandoned as an idea just as the "two 50km TTs and limited MTFs" template was abandoned after the failure of spectacle that was the 2012 Tour. We'll never know.
- Jun 7, 2010
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I thought Houanard wanted to get a new contract so in a way he took dope to beat the indirect competition for a domestique spot at Ag2r just like people dope to beat the competition for a Giro/Tour/any other race win.
- Aug 3, 2015
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Gigs_98 said:It's a bit off topic but was the Semnoz stage in 2013 really that good? I remember it to be relatively boring.
The MTF in itself was definitely one of the best MTF's I've seen, but yes, the rest of the stage wasn't spectacular.
Edit: That year's Tour actually had incredible MTF's now that I think about it. Ax-3 and Ventoux and Alpe was Alpe, altho it should be noted that Riblon won. But 3 out of those 4 went to the best climbers in the race with huge timegaps, so I can't complain.
- Aug 6, 2010
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Shorter, easier stages make a double more feasible. If the trend continues, and we get to a point where no multiple high mountain stage exceeds 150 kms, then the Tour/Vuelta and even the Giro/Tour become more of a temptation to attempt for the dominant GC rider of the day.
- Jun 7, 2010
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- Feb 10, 2015
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Re:
I count 9 flat sprints. Plus there's another flat stage that ends with a 1.5km at like 5%/6% which for TV purposes is essentially the same thing.
On one hand I do like that for once it's not backloaded like most GT's but it's missing a few more interesting stages and a few less sprints ... I mean there's 3 bunch sprints in the final week for god sake!
Also those final 3 days (2 sprints and one 22.5km TT) is an absolute *** idea since if the top 2 riders are further than say 40 seconds apart it renders the last 3 days completely pointless to watch. At least with a mountain stage you know there's potential for someone to crack badly but there's a limit to how much you can lose in a 22.5km TT. I have no idea who thought that was a good idea.
Alexandre B. said:
I count 9 flat sprints. Plus there's another flat stage that ends with a 1.5km at like 5%/6% which for TV purposes is essentially the same thing.
On one hand I do like that for once it's not backloaded like most GT's but it's missing a few more interesting stages and a few less sprints ... I mean there's 3 bunch sprints in the final week for god sake!
Also those final 3 days (2 sprints and one 22.5km TT) is an absolute *** idea since if the top 2 riders are further than say 40 seconds apart it renders the last 3 days completely pointless to watch. At least with a mountain stage you know there's potential for someone to crack badly but there's a limit to how much you can lose in a 22.5km TT. I have no idea who thought that was a good idea.
So we are going to have start to finish coverage of 9 (essentially 10) dead flat stages of 200km.
Good luck commentators! I wish ye all the best.
Good luck commentators! I wish ye all the best.
- Feb 20, 2012
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Even categorizations are getting more ridiculous each year. There's a climb that's 5km at 7% which is getting cat 1. There's 5 mountain stages. Only one of them is designed well.
There's one good thing about this Tour and it's that I'm not missing out on much.
There's one good thing about this Tour and it's that I'm not missing out on much.
- May 15, 2011
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