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- Jul 25, 2012
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Re:
If height is an advantage why are tall men allowed to compete against shorter men in sport? Or tall women against shorter women? Is it always an advantage? We divide combat sports on phenotype, maybe we should stop any man more than 2 inches above average height playing basketball to make it fair to the general population? Or have separate leagues for different heights?
Is height always an advantage? Vandenbergh's palmares would suggest not. Doesn't seem very unequivocal to me.
As for muscle mass and bone density, do these stay the same when a trans woman has been on HRT? Every trans woman I've heard talk about this says the first thing they lose is muscle mass and it's very hard to keep it on. Again, these things are distributed across a population and there are only a very small number of sports where maximum muscle mass is beneficial.
You'll need to explain what you think the implications are for trans men competing.
The division along genotypic lines is pretty arbitrary. Where it's felt to be important within sports, the division is almost always along phenotypic lines, namely combat sports, light-weight rowing, disability sports etc.
There's also the fact that this is basically a non-issue. There are a tiny number of trans-women competing in sports at the moment and none of them are winning non-age group world titles or even competing with the best cis-gendered women in the world. There are much bigger issues in women's sport that, if people really cared about them, they could invest their time in solving.
Sorry for not replying to the rest of your post, it's really a discussion for the cafe. Happy to continue that there if you want to? It is all related, the fact that the pill has only existed for about 70 years and prior to this female biology has had a massive social impact in terms of gender roles has clearly affected women's sport. This continues to this day and is evidenced by some of the, frankly, disgusting comments you see posted about women who dare to develop some muscle mass, even on this very forum. This is why I generally avoid talking about these things with random people on the internet.
macbindle said:
If height is an advantage why are tall men allowed to compete against shorter men in sport? Or tall women against shorter women? Is it always an advantage? We divide combat sports on phenotype, maybe we should stop any man more than 2 inches above average height playing basketball to make it fair to the general population? Or have separate leagues for different heights?
Is height always an advantage? Vandenbergh's palmares would suggest not. Doesn't seem very unequivocal to me.
As for muscle mass and bone density, do these stay the same when a trans woman has been on HRT? Every trans woman I've heard talk about this says the first thing they lose is muscle mass and it's very hard to keep it on. Again, these things are distributed across a population and there are only a very small number of sports where maximum muscle mass is beneficial.
You'll need to explain what you think the implications are for trans men competing.
The division along genotypic lines is pretty arbitrary. Where it's felt to be important within sports, the division is almost always along phenotypic lines, namely combat sports, light-weight rowing, disability sports etc.
There's also the fact that this is basically a non-issue. There are a tiny number of trans-women competing in sports at the moment and none of them are winning non-age group world titles or even competing with the best cis-gendered women in the world. There are much bigger issues in women's sport that, if people really cared about them, they could invest their time in solving.
Sorry for not replying to the rest of your post, it's really a discussion for the cafe. Happy to continue that there if you want to? It is all related, the fact that the pill has only existed for about 70 years and prior to this female biology has had a massive social impact in terms of gender roles has clearly affected women's sport. This continues to this day and is evidenced by some of the, frankly, disgusting comments you see posted about women who dare to develop some muscle mass, even on this very forum. This is why I generally avoid talking about these things with random people on the internet.
- Dec 22, 2017
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Yes, it's a lightning rod subject for all sorts of misogyny, homophobia, fear, loathing and hatred, I agree...on all sides actually. It is not a calm debate. All sides feel threatened in some way.
Couple of points, it's a non-issue at the moment, but it trans politics progresses on its current trajectory it will be an issue.
Secondly, with regards to your point about height, If we take it to its logical endpoint then there would be no justification for separating male and female sports at all.
Couple of points, it's a non-issue at the moment, but it trans politics progresses on its current trajectory it will be an issue.
Secondly, with regards to your point about height, If we take it to its logical endpoint then there would be no justification for separating male and female sports at all.
- Jul 25, 2012
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Yep, I follow people on both sides of the discussion on Twitter and, while I obviously agree with one side more than the other, neither side comes off looking great. It's not a medium for discussion, it's just a platform to announce things (and with the current trend of blocking anyone with a different point of view, it seems to be generally preaching to the choir. It's a pretty damning condemnation of discourse in the modern world to be honest).
It will only become an issue if trans athletes start winning Olympic medals. That is a very, very long way off and while I can understand people starting a discussion now, the level of bile and hatred being thrown around shows that this is more than just sport. There are many things that need sorting out in women's sport that are currently an issue, we should really be focussing on that.
That's possibly the logical conclusion as women's sport progresses, or switching to a division on phenotypic lines. We are talking about the extremes of the population and I believe the gaps between mens and women's world records are narrowing so it isn't inconceivable but it's not going to happen overnight. Again, social factors have a huge impact here. The comments about Serena Williams' physique show that society still views women in a specific way and tries to impose things on them. This all needs to change, and it's possible it can't. Women's biology has dictated their social status for a very long time and to some extent it always will unless reproduction is moved ex-vivo in the future.
It will only become an issue if trans athletes start winning Olympic medals. That is a very, very long way off and while I can understand people starting a discussion now, the level of bile and hatred being thrown around shows that this is more than just sport. There are many things that need sorting out in women's sport that are currently an issue, we should really be focussing on that.
That's possibly the logical conclusion as women's sport progresses, or switching to a division on phenotypic lines. We are talking about the extremes of the population and I believe the gaps between mens and women's world records are narrowing so it isn't inconceivable but it's not going to happen overnight. Again, social factors have a huge impact here. The comments about Serena Williams' physique show that society still views women in a specific way and tries to impose things on them. This all needs to change, and it's possible it can't. Women's biology has dictated their social status for a very long time and to some extent it always will unless reproduction is moved ex-vivo in the future.
- Dec 22, 2017
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I only look at Twitter via links, and then usually regret it. The prismatic effect of social media 'because you watched' algorithms means that exposure to arguments becomes polar, with the effect that people think that the polar view is 'what everyone is saying' leading to their own views becoming entrenched, and therefore more aggressively defended.
- Jul 18, 2010
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Women’s sports may one day soon consist entirely of men
The only piece of research done on transgender women competing in women’s sports had a sample size of eight people
Rod Liddle
Congratulations to Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood for sweeping all before them in the Connecticut girls’ high school track races last week. Yes, of course they are men. There were some anguished complaints from the various girls these two speedy lads defeated, but these were of course brushed aside in a country where women’s sporting events may one day soon consist entirely of men.
Already a Democratic party representative, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, is insisting that the US powerlifting tournaments allow transgender women to compete, so that people who look very much like Geoff Capes, and have the same chromosomes as Geoff Capes, and the same bone structure and musculature, can compete against women. Meanwhile, the fastest female college sprinter in the US is CeCe Telfer, who, once again, is not what you or I or science would call a lady, and one of the world champions in women’s cycling is a chap called Rachel McKinnon, whom I have mentioned here before.
Writing in the Sunday Times of London, Martina Navratilova described it as ‘insane’ and ‘cheating’ that men who have transitioned should be allowed to compete against women, adding that ‘hundreds’ of trans athletes have ‘achieved honors as women which were beyond their capabilities as men’. The former tennis star added that few people were prepared to speak up about this issue because of the furore that would immediately descend upon them from the perpetually enraged trans lobby. Indeed, within a few hours of her article being published she was booted off the advisory board of a gay advocacy group and was being denounced left, right and center in the kind of furiously screeched terms that have become the hallmark of these perhaps not wholly balanced campaigners.
Those who support the rights of transgender women to compete in women’s sports often cite the only piece of research done on the issue which ‘proves’ that it is a myth that transgender women have an advantage over normal women. This study was published in 2015 and is cited every time the issue arises — but I have one or two problems with it, to tell you the truth. First, it concerned a total of just eight athletes, which is a smallish sample (no control group, either). Second, it was not carried out by a qualified geneticist or social scientist, but by a ‘medical physicist’ by the name of Joanna Harper. And third, Joanna Harper, once an athlete herself, was, um, how can I put this, not always called Joanna. She was raised as a boy and transitioned to being a fairly fast lady in her thirties. So she has skin in the game and we might surmise that she, or he, set out to prove a thesis, rather than, in good Popperian practice, trying to disprove it.
But none of these caveats cuts the remotest ice with the lobby groups or indeed the liberal media, who quote from her survey as if it were on a par with the work of Crick and Watson. And meanwhile, blokes keep winning everything. Sometimes they are blokes who have had some becoming breasts appended to them and put on a bit of lippy, sometimes they are blokes who seemingly make no effort at all to disguise the fact that they are blokes.
The question, then, is this: will women’s sports cease to exist before or after we’ve closed down Frankenstein’s castle, i.e. the Tavistock clinic’s gender identity development service? The Tavistock is an extremely well endowed, so to speak, institution in London and every year somewhere in the region of 2,000 children are referred to this service, a substantial number of whom go on to be interfered with chemically or surgically, and transferred from one sex to another.
An internal report on this god-awful place by Dr David Bell suggested that it was ‘not fit for purpose’ and that decisions were taken to transition young people without taking into account social and personal factors, such as whether they had suffered a bereavement or abuse.
I will bet there’s a whole bunch of other factors they don’t take into account as well, such as peer pressure at school, other underlying mental health issues, unhelpful interventions from parents or social workers, and a repulsive propaganda program which surrounds them at all times telling them how wonderful it is to transition.
Anyway, following Bell’s report a senior governor at the hospital, Marcus Evans, has resigned. Evans, who practices the pseudoscience of psychoanalysis, has said that decisions to transition the poor kids are taken ‘too quickly’. He added: ‘There is pressure from the child who is in a distressed state, there is pressure from the family and the peer group and from the pro-trans lobbies — and all of this puts pressure on the clinician who may want to help the individual to resolve their distressed state by going along with a quick solution.’ No kidding. The point being that these are largely adolescent children who are trying to come to terms with their own sexuality: it’s a confusing time.
The trans lobby doesn’t recognize any of this stuff, mind: if a kid, no matter how old he or she might be, wishes to change sex, then it should be allowed to do so. It is remarkable and a little chilling how all of those concerned with the wellbeing of our children — the government, the teachers, the doctors, the counsellors, the social workers, the Tavistock and in many cases even the parents — have bought into the extremist views of a pressure group which, at the very least, we might describe as ‘troubled’. But then, I suppose that they dare not.
My guess is that we will look back on this period of experimentation on our children with horror and deeply regret the day we decided that kids should be allowed to be shunted into whatever ghetto of victimization they so desire, given that our society today seems to value victimhood above all else. In the meantime, shouldn’t the Tavistock’s gender clinic be closed down?
This article was originally published in The Spectator magazine.
The only piece of research done on transgender women competing in women’s sports had a sample size of eight people
Rod Liddle
Congratulations to Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood for sweeping all before them in the Connecticut girls’ high school track races last week. Yes, of course they are men. There were some anguished complaints from the various girls these two speedy lads defeated, but these were of course brushed aside in a country where women’s sporting events may one day soon consist entirely of men.
Already a Democratic party representative, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, is insisting that the US powerlifting tournaments allow transgender women to compete, so that people who look very much like Geoff Capes, and have the same chromosomes as Geoff Capes, and the same bone structure and musculature, can compete against women. Meanwhile, the fastest female college sprinter in the US is CeCe Telfer, who, once again, is not what you or I or science would call a lady, and one of the world champions in women’s cycling is a chap called Rachel McKinnon, whom I have mentioned here before.
Writing in the Sunday Times of London, Martina Navratilova described it as ‘insane’ and ‘cheating’ that men who have transitioned should be allowed to compete against women, adding that ‘hundreds’ of trans athletes have ‘achieved honors as women which were beyond their capabilities as men’. The former tennis star added that few people were prepared to speak up about this issue because of the furore that would immediately descend upon them from the perpetually enraged trans lobby. Indeed, within a few hours of her article being published she was booted off the advisory board of a gay advocacy group and was being denounced left, right and center in the kind of furiously screeched terms that have become the hallmark of these perhaps not wholly balanced campaigners.
Those who support the rights of transgender women to compete in women’s sports often cite the only piece of research done on the issue which ‘proves’ that it is a myth that transgender women have an advantage over normal women. This study was published in 2015 and is cited every time the issue arises — but I have one or two problems with it, to tell you the truth. First, it concerned a total of just eight athletes, which is a smallish sample (no control group, either). Second, it was not carried out by a qualified geneticist or social scientist, but by a ‘medical physicist’ by the name of Joanna Harper. And third, Joanna Harper, once an athlete herself, was, um, how can I put this, not always called Joanna. She was raised as a boy and transitioned to being a fairly fast lady in her thirties. So she has skin in the game and we might surmise that she, or he, set out to prove a thesis, rather than, in good Popperian practice, trying to disprove it.
But none of these caveats cuts the remotest ice with the lobby groups or indeed the liberal media, who quote from her survey as if it were on a par with the work of Crick and Watson. And meanwhile, blokes keep winning everything. Sometimes they are blokes who have had some becoming breasts appended to them and put on a bit of lippy, sometimes they are blokes who seemingly make no effort at all to disguise the fact that they are blokes.
The question, then, is this: will women’s sports cease to exist before or after we’ve closed down Frankenstein’s castle, i.e. the Tavistock clinic’s gender identity development service? The Tavistock is an extremely well endowed, so to speak, institution in London and every year somewhere in the region of 2,000 children are referred to this service, a substantial number of whom go on to be interfered with chemically or surgically, and transferred from one sex to another.
An internal report on this god-awful place by Dr David Bell suggested that it was ‘not fit for purpose’ and that decisions were taken to transition young people without taking into account social and personal factors, such as whether they had suffered a bereavement or abuse.
I will bet there’s a whole bunch of other factors they don’t take into account as well, such as peer pressure at school, other underlying mental health issues, unhelpful interventions from parents or social workers, and a repulsive propaganda program which surrounds them at all times telling them how wonderful it is to transition.
Anyway, following Bell’s report a senior governor at the hospital, Marcus Evans, has resigned. Evans, who practices the pseudoscience of psychoanalysis, has said that decisions to transition the poor kids are taken ‘too quickly’. He added: ‘There is pressure from the child who is in a distressed state, there is pressure from the family and the peer group and from the pro-trans lobbies — and all of this puts pressure on the clinician who may want to help the individual to resolve their distressed state by going along with a quick solution.’ No kidding. The point being that these are largely adolescent children who are trying to come to terms with their own sexuality: it’s a confusing time.
The trans lobby doesn’t recognize any of this stuff, mind: if a kid, no matter how old he or she might be, wishes to change sex, then it should be allowed to do so. It is remarkable and a little chilling how all of those concerned with the wellbeing of our children — the government, the teachers, the doctors, the counsellors, the social workers, the Tavistock and in many cases even the parents — have bought into the extremist views of a pressure group which, at the very least, we might describe as ‘troubled’. But then, I suppose that they dare not.
My guess is that we will look back on this period of experimentation on our children with horror and deeply regret the day we decided that kids should be allowed to be shunted into whatever ghetto of victimization they so desire, given that our society today seems to value victimhood above all else. In the meantime, shouldn’t the Tavistock’s gender clinic be closed down?
This article was originally published in The Spectator magazine.
- Jul 18, 2010
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Grizzly Bear Shatters All Pro Wrestling Records After Identifying As Human
STAMFORD, CT—The pro wrestling world was rocked last week when a new challenger arrived on the WWE circuit weighing in at 890 pounds, possessing 10-inch claws, and the strength to crush bones into gelatin. “He calls himself ‘the Grizzly’ and he is unlike any other wrestler anyone in the WWE has ever come up against,” said wrestler Seth Rollins from his hospital bed after a brief run-in with the massive opponent. What makes the Grizzly so unique? He is a trans-grizzly bear; the man recently decided to identify as human after being born an Alaskan grizzly bear. Along with his new identity, he has embraced his dream of becoming a champion human pro wrestler.
“The Grizzly has stated that his preferred pronouns are he/him/human and so we are going to respect that,” said A.J. Styles, wincing in pain as doctors attempted to realign his spine — another victim of the Grizzly’s punishment.
The Grizzly has torn apart his competition, sometimes literally. There are few remaining wrestlers left who are even willing to attempt a match against him. “He’ll be our star wrestler by, oh I’d say around seven thirty tonight when he gets the championship belt,” said WWE owner Vince McMahon.
“It’s really inspiring to see someone embrace their true self and find victory, not only in the sport they love, but over their own issues with identity,” said wrestler Randy Orton just before going in to have both of his shattered legs amputated. “Good on him."
STAMFORD, CT—The pro wrestling world was rocked last week when a new challenger arrived on the WWE circuit weighing in at 890 pounds, possessing 10-inch claws, and the strength to crush bones into gelatin. “He calls himself ‘the Grizzly’ and he is unlike any other wrestler anyone in the WWE has ever come up against,” said wrestler Seth Rollins from his hospital bed after a brief run-in with the massive opponent. What makes the Grizzly so unique? He is a trans-grizzly bear; the man recently decided to identify as human after being born an Alaskan grizzly bear. Along with his new identity, he has embraced his dream of becoming a champion human pro wrestler.
“The Grizzly has stated that his preferred pronouns are he/him/human and so we are going to respect that,” said A.J. Styles, wincing in pain as doctors attempted to realign his spine — another victim of the Grizzly’s punishment.
The Grizzly has torn apart his competition, sometimes literally. There are few remaining wrestlers left who are even willing to attempt a match against him. “He’ll be our star wrestler by, oh I’d say around seven thirty tonight when he gets the championship belt,” said WWE owner Vince McMahon.
“It’s really inspiring to see someone embrace their true self and find victory, not only in the sport they love, but over their own issues with identity,” said wrestler Randy Orton just before going in to have both of his shattered legs amputated. “Good on him."
- May 14, 2011
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Re:
Olympic gold medallist Caster Semenya says it already is an issue. The science says hormone replacement therapy does not correct the residual advantages trans gender athletes have over athletes who are born female. As mentioned above, Martina Navratilova recently came out to mention this. It is fair to ban trans gender athletes from competing against born females? Probably not. But is isn't fair to let them compete against women who were born that way. Some things in life are not fair. That is just how it is.
King Boonen said:
Olympic gold medallist Caster Semenya says it already is an issue. The science says hormone replacement therapy does not correct the residual advantages trans gender athletes have over athletes who are born female. As mentioned above, Martina Navratilova recently came out to mention this. It is fair to ban trans gender athletes from competing against born females? Probably not. But is isn't fair to let them compete against women who were born that way. Some things in life are not fair. That is just how it is.
- Jul 25, 2012
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Re: Re:
Caster Semenya is not transgender. It really helps if you know what you are talking about before you start posting.
Cookster15 said:
Caster Semenya is not transgender. It really helps if you know what you are talking about before you start posting.
- Dec 22, 2017
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I think the crux of this is whether hormone treatment renders biological men into biological women, with no trace remaining of any of the physical advantages that men have over women.
Clearly the answer to the first part is no, and to second part probably not.
Clearly the answer to the first part is no, and to second part probably not.
- Jul 25, 2012
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Plenty of women outperform plenty of men across all sports.
How do you define a "biological woman"?
How do you define a "biological woman"?
- Jul 25, 2012
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Re:
Why is it sophistry? You said men have physical advantages over women. Clearly that's not always the case is it? We've already pointed out that height isn't always an advantage. We can continue with other traits. If we want to look at McKinnon specifically then, as it's cycling, we can look at her power-to-weight, which is lower than several of her competitors, including Sarah Fader who pulled out of the championships. She came 11th in the Canadian National 500m TT. Good, but not great. No-one complained then. It seems everyone is fine with her competing when she loses, which she does a lot, but when she wins it's suddenly a problem.
So women born with Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser Syndrome aren't women? Some women born with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome aren't women? How big do a woman's breasts have to be for you to accept they are a woman? If you are going to define it on biology do women have to prove they can get pregnant before they are considered women?
macbindle said:
Why is it sophistry? You said men have physical advantages over women. Clearly that's not always the case is it? We've already pointed out that height isn't always an advantage. We can continue with other traits. If we want to look at McKinnon specifically then, as it's cycling, we can look at her power-to-weight, which is lower than several of her competitors, including Sarah Fader who pulled out of the championships. She came 11th in the Canadian National 500m TT. Good, but not great. No-one complained then. It seems everyone is fine with her competing when she loses, which she does a lot, but when she wins it's suddenly a problem.
So women born with Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser Syndrome aren't women? Some women born with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome aren't women? How big do a woman's breasts have to be for you to accept they are a woman? If you are going to define it on biology do women have to prove they can get pregnant before they are considered women?
- Dec 22, 2017
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Do you think humans are split into two biological sexes? Yes? How do you differentiate between the two? You can point to exceptions all day long, but ultimately it isn't helpful and you leave yourself vulnerable to me turning it around on you.
Your argument seems to suggest that we should judge sports on an individual basis to decide if men and women should be separated.
Your argument seems to suggest that we should judge sports on an individual basis to decide if men and women should be separated.
- Dec 22, 2017
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Sports stars weigh in on row over transgender athletes
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/03/sports-stars-weigh-in-on-row-over-transgender-athletes?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Even on my regional news tonight
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/03/sports-stars-weigh-in-on-row-over-transgender-athletes?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Even on my regional news tonight
- Mar 26, 2009
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macbindle is correct.
People can can point to exceptions all day long...
-0-
Rational unbiased thinking people have no problem with the statement that men are stronger than women. -That's too easy.
Reshape the statement / original post,
Women racing against transgender women.
People can can point to exceptions all day long...
-0-
Rational unbiased thinking people have no problem with the statement that men are stronger than women. -That's too easy.
Reshape the statement / original post,
Women racing against transgender women.
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macbindle,
I read the article You linked to. -An arrow splitting bull's-eye.
Insanity full on.
One positive: I wasn't aware of how this was a growing population and that means there is a need to create a transgender category for racers and all sports. Then I can not imagine We'll witness women signing up for races and competitions vs. transgender women in that category.
Will transgender athletes be happy to only race against other transgender athletes? I suspect their motives are not honest...
To Me, I feel aware that women are and have been marginalized, abused and taken advantage of by men throughout history and this is another instance in that history. I hope people and especially women speak up and stop this unfair sportsmanship dependent on not only insanity but on disrespecting and taking advantage of women in general.
Lately on a world scale there has evolved a growing consciousness of men abusing women in mind blowing myriad ways. A growing commitment to stop, expose, and eliminate those abuses.
That effort absolutely must include this issue.
I read the article You linked to. -An arrow splitting bull's-eye.
Insanity full on.
One positive: I wasn't aware of how this was a growing population and that means there is a need to create a transgender category for racers and all sports. Then I can not imagine We'll witness women signing up for races and competitions vs. transgender women in that category.
Will transgender athletes be happy to only race against other transgender athletes? I suspect their motives are not honest...
To Me, I feel aware that women are and have been marginalized, abused and taken advantage of by men throughout history and this is another instance in that history. I hope people and especially women speak up and stop this unfair sportsmanship dependent on not only insanity but on disrespecting and taking advantage of women in general.
Lately on a world scale there has evolved a growing consciousness of men abusing women in mind blowing myriad ways. A growing commitment to stop, expose, and eliminate those abuses.
That effort absolutely must include this issue.
- Jul 25, 2012
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Re:
Again, you're going to have to define those sexes. Classical biology defining XY sex characterisation requires that the male and female can reproduce, yet many, many women and men cannot due to phenotypic differences. There are also many people born who do not fit the XY definition of sex characterisation. I suggest that you read the work of Anne Fausto-Sterling as a quick entry into this.
Again, if this is how we are going to split sport you are going to exclude a lot of people, as was the case in the past. We've not even got onto the ethical and moral implications of depriving a group of a basic human right defined in the Olympic Charter (it's the 4th fundamental principal of Olympianism in case anyone wants to fact check me: https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document%20Library/OlympicOrg/General/EN-Olympic-Charter.pdf#_ga=2.191809071.460044862.1551693744-1183656713.1517488558)
We a literally discussing exceptions. The cross-over between Olympic athletes and transgender people is zero. in terms of population, both of these groups are in such a minority that they almost don't exist. I think the last survey from the Williams Institute had the US transgender population at 0.6%. Olympic athletes (disregarding medal winners which is even smaller) is, I think, an even smaller proportion of the population. This follows on in the next point.
Not really. I'm pointing out why trans-women should be allowed to compete with women. I'm open to a discussion on changing how sport is structured as this isn't a new thing. The Scottish track league regularly has teenage girls beating fully grown men across all the races, and when Katie Archibald turns up you can guess what happens. The league itself is structured on ability (and some limits on age etc. that BC enforce). Why do the girls/women race against the men? Because if they didn't ride against the adult males they wouldn't be able to race. Enforcing a binary classification in sport would, effectively, ban these girls from racing. The phenotypic spread across the different groups is also very large, as you might expect in cycling.
This is, however, a very different discussion and impacts everyone. If people want to hold onto the binary definition of humans (where does this leave anyone in the LGBT community?) then they have to accept that they'll likely have a much larger negative impact on women's sport than allowing transgender people to compete. And by much larger I mean huge. Female participation in sport, compared to male participation is tiny, it will likely kill the development of female athletes across the board and set women's sport back decades.
Transgender people have been competing in sport openly for about 40 years. That's a long time. Here is a list of all the transgender people who have dominated their sport:
This doesn't seem like a huge deal does it? It seems that people are actually fine with transgender people competing, just not winning. Would you, or anyone else have cared if Rachel McKinnon had lost all her races (because she lost most of them I believe)? Of course not. This wouldn't even have come up. Where was the outrage when Chris Mosier, a trans man, qualified for team USA in the duathlon? There wasn't any. In fact, according to most people, this is impossible. We can't allow people to compete but ban them when they win. This kind of thing has gone on before.
This is an incredibly difficult discussion to have, particularly when it attracts other posters who post transphobic nonsense which is best ignored. I feel like it's getting broken up and talking around the point already. If, in the future, trans women start winning every medal at the Olympics, World Championships, every race on the road (there is a transwoman racing professionally in cycling, that doesn't seem to have caused outrage...) make up all of the players at the womens world cup and so on maybe then it's time to reassess. That's not likely though is it?
macbindle said:
Again, you're going to have to define those sexes. Classical biology defining XY sex characterisation requires that the male and female can reproduce, yet many, many women and men cannot due to phenotypic differences. There are also many people born who do not fit the XY definition of sex characterisation. I suggest that you read the work of Anne Fausto-Sterling as a quick entry into this.
Again, if this is how we are going to split sport you are going to exclude a lot of people, as was the case in the past. We've not even got onto the ethical and moral implications of depriving a group of a basic human right defined in the Olympic Charter (it's the 4th fundamental principal of Olympianism in case anyone wants to fact check me: https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document%20Library/OlympicOrg/General/EN-Olympic-Charter.pdf#_ga=2.191809071.460044862.1551693744-1183656713.1517488558)
We a literally discussing exceptions. The cross-over between Olympic athletes and transgender people is zero. in terms of population, both of these groups are in such a minority that they almost don't exist. I think the last survey from the Williams Institute had the US transgender population at 0.6%. Olympic athletes (disregarding medal winners which is even smaller) is, I think, an even smaller proportion of the population. This follows on in the next point.
Not really. I'm pointing out why trans-women should be allowed to compete with women. I'm open to a discussion on changing how sport is structured as this isn't a new thing. The Scottish track league regularly has teenage girls beating fully grown men across all the races, and when Katie Archibald turns up you can guess what happens. The league itself is structured on ability (and some limits on age etc. that BC enforce). Why do the girls/women race against the men? Because if they didn't ride against the adult males they wouldn't be able to race. Enforcing a binary classification in sport would, effectively, ban these girls from racing. The phenotypic spread across the different groups is also very large, as you might expect in cycling.
This is, however, a very different discussion and impacts everyone. If people want to hold onto the binary definition of humans (where does this leave anyone in the LGBT community?) then they have to accept that they'll likely have a much larger negative impact on women's sport than allowing transgender people to compete. And by much larger I mean huge. Female participation in sport, compared to male participation is tiny, it will likely kill the development of female athletes across the board and set women's sport back decades.
Transgender people have been competing in sport openly for about 40 years. That's a long time. Here is a list of all the transgender people who have dominated their sport:
This doesn't seem like a huge deal does it? It seems that people are actually fine with transgender people competing, just not winning. Would you, or anyone else have cared if Rachel McKinnon had lost all her races (because she lost most of them I believe)? Of course not. This wouldn't even have come up. Where was the outrage when Chris Mosier, a trans man, qualified for team USA in the duathlon? There wasn't any. In fact, according to most people, this is impossible. We can't allow people to compete but ban them when they win. This kind of thing has gone on before.
This is an incredibly difficult discussion to have, particularly when it attracts other posters who post transphobic nonsense which is best ignored. I feel like it's getting broken up and talking around the point already. If, in the future, trans women start winning every medal at the Olympics, World Championships, every race on the road (there is a transwoman racing professionally in cycling, that doesn't seem to have caused outrage...) make up all of the players at the womens world cup and so on maybe then it's time to reassess. That's not likely though is it?
- Dec 22, 2017
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In practical terms it is almost a non-issue, but that doesn't really inform the debate in terms of biological science, or ethics.
I suppose it matters in so far as some cis athletes are pissed off with it. At the risk of being called a TERF I can understand the aggrieved feminists arguments.
Anyway, a long detailed answer from you, and thanks.A lot for me to consider and I won't be able to get to it until tomorrow.
I suppose it matters in so far as some cis athletes are pissed off with it. At the risk of being called a TERF I can understand the aggrieved feminists arguments.
Anyway, a long detailed answer from you, and thanks.A lot for me to consider and I won't be able to get to it until tomorrow.
- Jul 25, 2012
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It helps with ethics, as to deny someone a right for something that isn't an issue is clearly crazy. It terms of biology it becomes much more complicated, but as I've mentioned before, phenotypic separation by some measure is much more effective than genotypic (this is effectively what happens in track leagues in the UK with A, B, C and D groups, CX A and B races, even the Tour De France where GC riders, puncheurs, rouleurs and sprinters all compete for different goals under the same umbrella race). But this is shifting the question as to whether trans-women should compete against women. The research points to that they should. If people want to disagree with that they need to back it up.
I can understand their being aggrieved, but the evidence doesn't back their position. It invariably falls back on the "they look like they have an advantage" but the history of transgender participation in sport shows this clearly isn't the case. Do these same people think a stick bends when you place half of it underwater? I doubt it. I wouldn't call anyone I am discussing this with a TERF, especially not someone who clearly wants to discuss and understand the two positions. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, although I fall on the inclusion side quite heavily.
I can understand their being aggrieved, but the evidence doesn't back their position. It invariably falls back on the "they look like they have an advantage" but the history of transgender participation in sport shows this clearly isn't the case. Do these same people think a stick bends when you place half of it underwater? I doubt it. I wouldn't call anyone I am discussing this with a TERF, especially not someone who clearly wants to discuss and understand the two positions. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, although I fall on the inclusion side quite heavily.
- Jul 25, 2012
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Re: Re:
This is a good place to start:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sxo2stksk9yctq1/Including%20Trans%20Women%20Athletes%20in%20Sport_%20Analyzing%20Principles%20and%20Policies%20of%20Fairness%20in%20Competition.pdf?dl=0
Red Rick said:
This is a good place to start:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sxo2stksk9yctq1/Including%20Trans%20Women%20Athletes%20in%20Sport_%20Analyzing%20Principles%20and%20Policies%20of%20Fairness%20in%20Competition.pdf?dl=0
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