Reactions from the peloton

[Descender]

Source for that?

http://english.gazzetta.it/More_spo...nk-accounts-fake-contracts-912946609743.shtml



Source for that?

What exactly is that link supposed to prove? That Spain is not the only country where doping is a problem? Well thanks for the info.

You can divert the attention all you want. People have eyes and brains, and they realise Spain is way behind most other nations when it comes to anti-doping efforts and culture.

And you are living proof of that. Unless you start changing your attitude and seeing things for what they are, Spain will keep being pointed at.

 

[No_Balls]

What exactly is that link supposed to prove? That Spain is not the only country where doping is a problem? Well thanks for the info.

You can divert the attention all you want. People have eyes and brains, and they realise Spain is way behind most other nations when it comes to anti-doping efforts and culture.

And you are living proof of that. Unless you start changing your attitude and seeing things for what they are, Spain will keep being pointed at.

Note to self: No source and yet the need to go on a jingoistic rant.

Am i a "proof"? I admitted we have a problem in my post above. Which is clearly the more that could be said about many around here. In case you wonder my problem with your post was the need to go out at the spanish population in general as supporters of doping which is not true as a general rule.

 

[Descender]

Note to self: No source and yet the need to go on a jingoistic rant.

Am i a "proof"? I admitted we have a problem in my post above. Which is clearly the more that could be said about many around here. In case you wonder my problem with your post was the need to go out at the spanish population in general as supporters of doping which is not true as a general rule.

What I said was this, and I stand by it.

And yes, the Spanish population in general and the cycling fans in particular show much more understanding for doping and show less of a will to fight it than in most other countries.

 

[Love the Scenery]

Spain has a doping problem, one that is much bigger than in most other nations.

The Spanish authorities are too lax and lenient towards doping matters, the Spanish cyclists have a terrible track record when it comes to doping and above all, they're showing an outrageous attitude towards it.

The Spanish media hail proven dopers as national heroes.

And yes, the Spanish population in general and the cycling fans in particular show much more understanding for doping and are show less of a will to fight it than in most other countries.

The worst is, I came on this thread this morning to criticize Samu Sanchez and Miguel Indurain ... in the end we are arguing over tactics, not strategy.

I have no objection to the first two paragraphs above. The third paragraph is also correct, the media are pushing a "bread and circuses" (pan y circos) approach to make everybody forget there is a crisis and that the politicians are sucking the blood of the country, as they have done for just about all of recorded history.

The fourth paragraph, however, betrays a radical lack of understanding of Spanish reality. Let's put it this way: the Spanish people have much bigger problems on their hands than Alberto Contador's clenbuterol habit. The vast majority couldn't care less about doping in cycling, for the very good reason that they are more concerned with having no home, no job, collapsing education and health systems, and no hope of anything getting better.

The reality is that a very large proportion of Spanish despise the bread and circuses system and the politicians that foster it. PP, PSOE, and other political parties (who in the end run the federations and operate the national sports nationalism system) are completely discredited, and very few people believe in them. The millions who either protest or take other actions against the system have a very dim view of Spanish athletes in general. Athletes are making tens of millions a year while the Spanish have no food or housing or education?

The media are not representative of the Spanish any more than Murdoch's newspapers are representative of the English. If you read El Pais and ABC that doesn't mean you are reading the opinion of "The Spanish." Go to a protest and ask people if they support Contador. Ask them about the hundreds of millions that go into football. Ask them about athletes' salaries and why the government spends hundreds of millions supporting sports federations while they cut health and education spending. Don't be confused by what you read in the press. The Spanish are resisting the system to a greater degree than in most other countries. The fawning nationalistic fervor of newspapers is not shared by most people.

Again, you want to criticize the Spanish sports federations, go ahead, it's justified. But you want to make this out to be something inherent in being Spanish--that's just ethnic prejudice, not even masked. It's not valid thinking. And that's what is going on when doping, or apologies for doping, are called a "Spanish disease."

Now, my original thought was to say something like, how happy I am that the Spanish cycling team descended into ridiculous bickering and noncoooperation at the Olympics and Worlds. Samuel Sanchez ... you just lost any lingering respect I might have had for you, which was not much in the first place.

 

[No_Balls]

What I said was this, and I stand by it.

If that makes you sleep well at night.

Question: what have you done to prevent doping lately?

 

[Lukenwolf]

To be fair, the knowledgeable spanish fans DO know where the problem is. But that doesn't mask the fact that the spanish authorities don't do enough to clean up the stable. And those, who are in blind hero-worship of Contator apply the same apologist tactics as the Armstrong fanboys.
So the blame falls to the spanish riders, some of which simple don't get that doping is wrong and most of all the Spanish NADA. And it's not that most other agency were any better before 2000.

 

[No_Balls]

To be fair, the knowledgeable spanish fans DO know where the problem is.

That must have been hard.

And those, who are in blind hero-worship of Contator apply the same apologist tactics as the Armstrong fanboys.

Last time i checked Contador wasnt setting up a criminal syndicate in conspiracy with the Switzerland-based UCI.

So the blame falls to the spanish riders, some of which simple don't get that doping is wrong and most of all the Spanish NADA.

No. The blame falls on everyone who dont get that doping is wrong. We dont have any moral obligation in this matter.

 

[Lukenwolf]

That must have been hard.

Not really. In contrast to several slanderous remarks I'm actually not a nationalist

Last time i checked Contador wasnt setting up a criminal syndicate in conspiracy with the Switzerland-based UCI.

Last time I checked, he was still caught doping and striped of results he had gained dishonestly. He never confessed or apologized. Still supporting such a rider is wrong in my opinion.

No. The blame falls on everyone who dont get that doping is wrong. We dont have any moral obligation to tell the world cheating is wrong.

agreed.

 

[hrotha]

I agree 100% with Descender, and I still don't understand what the current political and economic situation of Spain has to do with anything.

 

[Lukenwolf]

I agree 100% with Descender, and I still don't understand what the current political and economic situation of Spain has to do with anything.

It can have an influence. People are more prone to engage in fantasies to get away from the grim reality in hard times. And hero fairy tales are the ideal tool for that.
Hell, worked for us East Germans in the 80s. Dang were we proud of all or great sportspeople winning the raw **** out of everyone else. Imagine how hard we fell on our faces when we realized in the early 90s that it had all been a huge honking lie - an illusion created by a massive state-run doping system that was even worse than Armstrongs scheme.

 

[hrotha]

It can have an influence. People are more prone to engage in fantasies to get away from the grim reality in hard times. And hero fairy tales are the ideal tool for that.
Hell, worked for us East Germans in the 80s. Dang were we proud of all or great sportspeople winning the raw **** out of everyone else. Imagine how hard we fell on our faces when we realized in the early 90s that it had all been a huge honking lie - an illusion created by a massive state-run doping system that was even worse than Armstrongs scheme.

It can have an influence, but Puerto predates the current crisis. I won't mention Festina because most of the cycling world was asleep back then, but the response in Spain was particularly embarrassing.

 

[DominicDecoco]

Question: what have you done to prevent doping lately?

What has that to do with anything?

 

[No_Balls]

Last time I checked, he was still caught doping and striped of results he had gained dishonestly. He never confessed or apologized. Still supporting such a rider is wrong in my opinion

Would have look strange if he would have done that given the minimal amount of clenbuentarol that was found and the procedure that was built upon the contamined meat story.

As long as he has served his punishment (which Armstrong never did during his active career) and being rightfully stripped of his Tourtitle while supposed to riding clean, i dont see the problem supporting him.

 

[Lukenwolf]

Question: what have you done to prevent doping lately?

What every garden variety fan CAN do:

a) not condoning it and speaking up against it
b) not supporting riders with a proven doping record.
c) signing up to a cycling-related forum, adding our two currency units in discussions about it.

That's as far as anyone can do something against it. It's all about the awareness, know what I mean?

 

[Love the Scenery]

To be fair, the knowledgeable spanish fans DO know where the problem is. But that doesn't mask the fact that the spanish authorities don't do enough to clean up the stable. And those, who are in blind hero-worship of Contator apply the same apologist tactics as the Armstrong fanboys.
So the blame falls to the spanish riders, some of which simple don't get that doping is wrong and most of all the Spanish NADA. And it's not that most other agency were any better before 2000.

I agree with everything you say here. I will apologize for my initial reaction. I notice your language has become much more precise as this thread goes on, and I thank you for it. You may not admit it, but something of what I said has gotten through to you and that's good enough for me.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Now Piti http://www.marca.com/2012/10/23/ciclismo/1351001213.html ..them spanish are not doing southern europe any favours :

 

[No_Balls]

What has that to do with anything?

"Descender" claimed that the general spanish person has a moral obligation to fight doping on the street (although he failed to realise the typical spanish person doesnt give jack-**** about cycling) because of the authorities failure in this department.

Setting his piedestal that high i, in my humble person, asked what he himself did for the sake of preventing doping.

 

[No_Balls]

Now Piti http://www.marca.com/2012/10/23/ciclismo/1351001213.html ..them spanish are not doing southern europe any favours :

The problem is Indurain in this case since Mig is like god for Piti.

But i had hoped they would have speaked out against Lance or, if not, kept quite about it. Makes us all look like fools.

 

[Love the Scenery]

It can have an influence. People are more prone to engage in fantasies to get away from the grim reality in hard times. And hero fairy tales are the ideal tool for that.
Hell, worked for us East Germans in the 80s. Dang were we proud of all or great sportspeople winning the raw **** out of everyone else. Imagine how hard we fell on our faces when we realized in the early 90s that it had all been a huge honking lie - an illusion created by a massive state-run doping system that was even worse than Armstrongs scheme.

I think a large quantity of Spanish people are approaching the same position. When you see those protests and protest movements in Spain, you see a lot of people who are critical of the bread and circuses system, and of the national federations' efforts to distract the country with sporting victories. People understand how much money athletes are making and how much money is being put into supporting sports. It's not the central issue of the protest movement but you should understand that it is something that is much discussed, and the "bread and circuses" approach is being criticized thoroughly. You don't see it in the big media, but you hear it on the street. When you see those protests, think of lots of people who don't believe the fake goods they are being sold.

 

[Lukenwolf]

As long as he has served his punishment (which Armstrong never did during his active career) and being rightfully stripped of his Tourtitle while supposed to riding clean, i dont see the problem supporting him.

But I do. The clenbuterol thing was a clear positive test and he was part of OP. They couldn't have busted him if the amount of substance in his body were under the threshold value.

I have respect for riders like Jaksche or Simeoni, who did the same **** as so many others, but actually managed to speak openly about it and offered the authorities their help.

I tend to see it like that. If Contador and Jaksche were bank-robbers. Contador is the one, who fights tooth and nail until the bitter end and once he's out of jail he goes on unrepentant. Jaksche is the one, who fessed up during the trial, led the police into the woods and showed them where he buried the stolen money and then served his sentence, which was a milder one, because he cooperated from the start.

Mind you, I say I respect Jaksche. I would never support him, because repentant or not. He was still a fraudster.

 

[No_Balls]

What every garden variety fan CAN do:

a) not condoning it and speaking up against it
b) not supporting riders with a proven doping record.
c) signing up to a cycling-related forum, adding our two currency units in discussions about it.

That's as far as anyone can do something against it. It's all about the awareness, know what I mean?

I hear you.

 

[Descender]

"Descender" claimed that the general spanish person has a moral obligation to fight doping on the street (although he failed to realise the typical spanish person doesnt give jack-**** about cycling) because of the authorities failure in this department.

Setting his piedestal that high i, in my humble person, asked what he himself did for the sake of preventing doping.

Either you are misinterpreting my remarks or, what's worse, you are purportedly manipulating them.

Personal attacks and non-sequiturs won't do your cause any favour.

Others have kindly answered your question already.

 

[Love the Scenery]

Last time i checked Contador wasnt setting up a criminal syndicate in conspiracy with the Switzerland-based UCI.

Contador is not nearly as bad as Armstrong, but be careful how you support him. The lawyer that defended him against the Clenbuterol charge was Rocco Taminelli, who has now been identified as the lawyer for Michele Ferrari's doping ring. Taminelli was, according to gazzetta (http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/17-...i-si-ricicla-tesoro-doping-912938790314.shtml) the official "fixer" for an international money-laundering, fraud, and doping ring. He is also on the UCI disciplinary committee. He was also Contador's lawyer. That implicates Contador in organized criminal conspiracy.

I argue against any rhetoric that will blame "the Spanish," "the Spanish people," or a "Spanish disease" for the doping activities of a few dozen cyclists, when those to blame are the sports federations and the politicians who support them, and the Spanish are close to revolution against those same politicians. However, that doesn't mean I'm blind. There has been a great deal of organized criminal activity in Spanish cycling teams, and in all likelihood there still is. It needs to stop, and we need to be critical of the teams, the riders, the federations, and the politicians that allow it to happen.

And that means Samuel Sanchez and Miguel Indurain need to be accountable for their support of omerta. That much I will agree with. Indurain's words make me sick, physically ill. And I agree with some posters who say that it is practically an admission of doping. You would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb not to believe that Armstrong doped, and I can't believe for a second that Indurain really thinks Armstrong is innocent. Sanchez and Indurain are trying to "poison the well," make it so that drug tests are the only acceptable evidence, when they know how easy it is to beat drug tests. They know that if eyewitness testimony was acceptable, Jesus Manzano would have brought Spanish cycling to its knees. They are scared. And they should be. Eyewitness testimony is the new positive drug test, and that is as it should be.

 

[Descender]

The worst is, I came on this thread this morning to criticize Samu Sanchez and Miguel Indurain ... in the end we are arguing over tactics, not strategy.

I have no objection to the first two paragraphs above. The third paragraph is also correct, the media are pushing a "bread and circuses" (pan y circos) approach to make everybody forget there is a crisis and that the politicians are sucking the blood of the country, as they have done for just about all of recorded history.

The fourth paragraph, however, betrays a radical lack of understanding of Spanish reality. Let's put it this way: the Spanish people have much bigger problems on their hands than Alberto Contador's clenbuterol habit. The vast majority couldn't care less about doping in cycling, for the very good reason that they are more concerned with having no home, no job, collapsing education and health systems, and no hope of anything getting better.

The reality is that a very large proportion of Spanish despise the bread and circuses system and the politicians that foster it. PP, PSOE, and other political parties (who in the end run the federations and operate the national sports nationalism system) are completely discredited, and very few people believe in them. The millions who either protest or take other actions against the system have a very dim view of Spanish athletes in general. Athletes are making tens of millions a year while the Spanish have no food or housing or education?

The media are not representative of the Spanish any more than Murdoch's newspapers are representative of the English. If you read El Pais and ABC that doesn't mean you are reading the opinion of "The Spanish." Go to a protest and ask people if they support Contador. Ask them about the hundreds of millions that go into football. Ask them about athletes' salaries and why the government spends hundreds of millions supporting sports federations while they cut health and education spending. Don't be confused by what you read in the press. The Spanish are resisting the system to a greater degree than in most other countries. The fawning nationalistic fervor of newspapers is not shared by most people.

Again, you want to criticize the Spanish sports federations, go ahead, it's justified. But you want to make this out to be something inherent in being Spanish--that's just ethnic prejudice, not even masked. It's not valid thinking. And that's what is going on when doping, or apologies for doping, are called a "Spanish disease."

Now, my original thought was to say something like, how happy I am that the Spanish cycling team descended into ridiculous bickering and noncoooperation at the Olympics and Worlds. Samuel Sanchez ... you just lost any lingering respect I might have had for you, which was not much in the first place.

My understanding of the Spanish reality is just fine, thank you. I fail to see the connection between protests against government policies and the attitude of the Spanish population in general (and on average, I can see you growling there, ready to pounce) towards doping, though.

I'll try to be clear. Let's have a look at these statements:

"They all dope anyway, so it's a level-playing field."

"You're all such holier-than-though hypocrites... So he doped, big deal. What kind of perfect creatures do you think you are you have the right to criticise him?"

"Nevermind the blood bags or the enormous amount of evidence. As long as there is no positive test, there is no wrongdoing."

"So cycling is dirty as ****. Oh well, what I really love is watching the best riders in the world battling it out. If I find out later they're doped, oh well. I already had my fun."


A Spaniard is more likely to be found uttering one of these than a Frenchman or a German are.

 

[Love the Scenery]

My understanding of the Spanish reality is just fine, thank you. ...

I'll try to be clear. Let's have a look at these statements:

"They all dope anyway, so it's a level-playing field."

"You're all such holier-than-though hypocrites... So he doped, big deal. What kind of perfect creatures do you think you are you have the right to criticise him?"

"Nevermind the blood bags or the enormous amount of evidence. As long as there is no positive test, there is no wrongdoing."

"So cycling is dirty as ****. Oh well, what I really love is watching the best riders in the world battling it out. If I find out later they're doped, oh well. I already had my fun."


A Spaniard is more likely to be found uttering one of these than a Frenchman or a German are.

Really. Every single one of those is an Armstrong fanboy special, made in U.S.A. Are all Americans responsible for Lance Armstrong? I've seen that argument made on these forums, conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Americans who just finished taking down Armstrong. Which is why to characterize "America" as either for or against Armstrong is ridiculous.

Your understanding of Spanish reality is nonexistent. The average Spaniard has much more important things to think about than cycling, and has no opinion at all on the subject of Contador's clenbuterol. Those who do have an opinion, among those I have spoken to, say that Spanish athletes in general are parasitic vampires sucking the blood of the country. If all you read are newspaper accounts or official party lines, you've got another thing coming. You won't read critical voices in the newspapers, but it's widespread opinion that the entire athletics system is an effort to distract Spain from the politicians' failures. The newspapers are desperately trying to convince people that everything is OK and they should just watch football. It's not working.

Go to the next protest, ask people about cycling, then come back and tell me what you heard. Your statements are completely devoid of any information, data, or evidence and reflect a profound misunderstanding of Spain and the Spanish.

I fail to see the connection between protests against government policies and the attitude of the Spanish population in general (and on average, I can see you growling there, ready to pounce) towards doping, though

This would be clear to you if you walked around in a protest and talked to people, and it would be clear to you that your stereotypes about Spanish people are completely false. Let me try to get through to you, though I've already stated it in extremely clear terms. Maybe this will help.

Sports federations responsible for ease of doping in Spanish sports -->
Sports federations staffed and appointed by politicians -->
Politicians advocate "bread and circuses" sports policy -->
Politicians want successful Spanish sports b/c they think people will be happy and not pay attention to actual events -->
Politicians support connection between sports and nationalist pride, again to distract people from their thievery and incompetence -->
Politicians will turn a blind eye to doping if they think it will help them hide their thievery and incompetence, which it will do by putting fake heroes in the media -->
Protestors are very critical of politicians -->
Protestors are perfectly aware of crooked politicians' "bread and circuses" policy -->
Protestors are not going to support any doped athlete who makes millions.

The connection between politicians and Spanish sports nationalism is very clear to protestors, as is the fact that politicians are using sports to distract people.

Your idea of ignorant Spanish masses repeating cheap Armstrong fanboy slogans is so far from the reality that I cannot conceive how you got those ideas.

Don't believe the media, believe your eyes and ears.