Refreshing legendary climbs

[May0maniac]

There would be a nice option for the hard side of the Giau.
Think of something like the 2012 Giro stage, but instead of a downhill finish in Cortina d'Ampezzo you could descent down to Pocol and then climb Falzarego, or Valparola from Pocol, as the final climb. It would be similar to the Mortirolo Aprica combination and could work really well.

 

[DFA123]

One for the Vuelta in the Sierra Nevada. Instead of finishing at Haza Llanas or Pradollano like usual, they should carry on to IRAM. If climbed from Granada, via Haza Llanas this would be over 2,000m vertical gain in one climb with the 5km after Guejar Sierra averaging over 10%. Plus the effect of altitude at 2,800+m would make for an epic finish to a stage.

In fantasy land they would go all the way to the top of Veleta. Maybe one day it could work as a time trial!

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

There would be a nice option for the hard side of the Giau.
Think of something like the 2012 Giro stage, but instead of a downhill finish in Cortina d'Ampezzo you could descent down to Pocol and then climb Falzarego, or Valparola from Pocol, as the final climb. It would be similar to the Mortirolo Aprica combination and could work really well.

Which hard side do you mean? Simply the south side or is there any special old street up there, which I don't know. I mean, its not like the south side is easy but I don't know if you can really compare it to the Mortirolo, which is 2 km's longer and 2% steeper.
Anyway it would make a really good finish

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Fedaia MTT, broadcast from the very start. Several hours of Fedaia scenery.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Fedaia MTT, broadcast from the very start. Several hours of Fedaia scenery.

Yes please.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

How about this epic little hill in central France?

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

There would be a nice option for the hard side of the Giau.
Think of something like the 2012 Giro stage, but instead of a downhill finish in Cortina d'Ampezzo you could descent down to Pocol and then climb Falzarego, or Valparola from Pocol, as the final climb. It would be similar to the Mortirolo Aprica combination and could work really well.

Which hard side do you mean? Simply the south side or is there any special old street up there, which I don't know. I mean, its not like the south side is easy but I don't know if you can really compare it to the Mortirolo, which is 2 km's longer and 2% steeper.
Anyway it would make a really good finish

Just the south side. No it's not as hard as the Mortirolo, I wanted to say that having an easier climb after a hard climb always reminds me of the classic Mortirolo Aprica combination.
If you want to go full Zomegnan on the mountain passes of the Dolomites you could always remove the asphalt and let them race on the cobbles that lie underneath it.

 

[Steven Roots]

How about this epic little hill in central France?

Impossible because of the little train they put there, that takes half of the road.
Even as a cyclotourist, i think its not possible. (It was at least forbidden for a while.)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Malbun

Much as Andorra regularly pays up to host the Vuelta, the Tour and the Volta a Catalunya, it is far from rare that the Tour de Suisse will step across its borders; however trips to France, Germany or Italy are typically rare and the journeys abroad tend to be in the east, either to Austria (Serfaus is a regular stop-off, but going further afield is not unknown - though this year's trip as far as the Rettenbachferner is certainly a rarity) or, quite commonly, to the country's smallest neighbour, Liechtenstein.

When they do go to Liechtenstein, it is almost invariably for a mountaintop finish at the country's fabled ski resort of Malbun. It is a brutal climb whichever route you take into it, and invariably produces some sizable gaps in the GC.

Typically, because of the brutality of the final mountain, the race organizers know that the final climb is all that will prove decisive in the race, and therefore tend to go the Unipublic approach. 2011's stage rather resembled some of the recent stages to Angliru, except without Cordal. In 2007, they came through Austria, but the only obstacle on the way was the Arlbergpass, so this stage was a huge missed opportunity. In 2004, they went one better, producing an espoir-length Unipuerto profile that made baby Jesus cry.

While it is undoubtedly true that a stage to Malbun is likely to see the final climb be the only truly decisive part of the stage, there's still plenty that can be done to ensure legs are tired when they get to Vaduz. The most obvious approach is of course a Triesenberg loop, which amounts to climbing just under half the climb, then descending the other side of it before looping round to climb again. But while a bit of flat is inevitable, there are tough climbs nearby. Take this suggested stage from Sankt Gallen to Malbun taking in Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein:

The first 50km, including the initial climb, are in Switzerland; then we detour into Austria. Bödele Losenpass is steep and makes a good route in. The main thing is the link of Furkajoch (and the optional additional climb of Dünserberg) which gives us a tough climb AND a technical descent. The 2007 route over Arlbergpass could have inserted the South side of Faschinajoch:

Before the last 8km of Furkajoch east:

Or, for a different and really tough option, you could go into the same flat run-in to Malbun from the steeper but shorter opposite side of Dünserberg. This would mean climbing the west side of Furkajoch (a legit HC), a mere 2km of Faschinajoch north (at around 6%) then Dünserberg southeast before a similar last 30km to the profile above - so that's these:

Then Malbun as posted above.

 

[dpm1991]

COLLE DELLE FINESTRE
[...]
1.) Which climbs to put in front of the Finestre

Propably the best and easiest design is to include both of the Sestrere and Moncenisio with optional Pramartino. Something like this below would work perfectly fine with me.

The most obvious finish besides Sestriere is a finish in Pinerolo. For that the riders first have to ride down the actual finestre descent and than a lot of false descent down to Pinerolo. However the route would probably go over Pramartino a 2nd category climb which was used in a giro stage with the equal finish in 2009. That stage also featured Moncenisio btw.

I am not the biggest fan of this finish but I other people here like the idea for example Libertine Seguros once wrote something like:

The Finestre is difficult enough that after the climb there would be people all over the place. However many riders could come together on the descent, but they would have to spend a lot of energy for that because it is a false descent and not a real one. So the race would completely explode on the Colle Pra Martino.

Indeed, interesting variant; highly suspicious. I have no idea how this would play out. I dunno how to estimate the time differences between the first 10 guys. Propably the variant with Sestrieres would create biger gaps between the top 10, but smaller between the top 20. But this is just a very big estimation.

 

[Gigs_98]

Many people talk a lot about sampeyre and fauniera, but now that I watched the streets on google street view I am not even sure if you can really use these streets. The descents would be extremely dangerous. With Zomegnan it wouldnt have been a problem but now? Hard question IMO
(oh and before someone thinks I ask that because I need help for eshnars giro challenge, not both climbs wont be included so you can answer me )

 

[Steven Roots]

Esischie+Sampeyre were used together in 2003, before Zomegnan's arrival.
So i dont think its that much of a problem.
Sure, its not exactly the best road there is, but its not as bad as the Crostis.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Just some climbs I would like to see in TdF

Col d' Aubisque MTF - Best memory ever in 2007. Spectacular climb which tends to be used way too early on a stage and thus is pretty useless. I wanna see something similar to 2007 with a +200 km stage, going over Larrau. It is possible to go over that from the 'hard' side into Aubisque?

Granon MTF - Learned about it form PCM in a cool variant, going over Madeleine - > Croix de Fer (dno in which order) - > Telegraphe + Galibier - > Granon making it an epic day. Cut one of the first climbs of and its completely doable.

Pailheres - I absolutely love this climb. Is it possible NOT to finish on Ax-3 with it still being in the final? Otherwise, try to spice it up with some climbs in before instead of the approach which has been taken previosuly with the Pailheres-Ax-3 combo.

Madeleine - Do it from the hard side more often in the final. I dont care if its overused or whatever some people say (frankly, I say its not), its an epic climb which can create carnage. Put the Glandon/Croix de Fer in before and finish with a downhill without too much flat.

Chat - Just do this climb. I dont care if its completely flat before. Just do it.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Esischie+Sampeyre were used together in 2003, before Zomegnan's arrival.
So i dont think its that much of a problem.
Sure, its not exactly the best road there is, but its not as bad as the Crostis.

I would love to see this as well. I mean, how hard can it be? These climbs are not completely out of the world. Just make the rest of the route reasonable and not super long

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Just some climbs I would like to see in TdF

Col d' Aubisque MTF - Best memory ever in 2007. Spectacular climb which tends to be used way too early on a stage and thus is pretty useless. I wanna see something similar to 2007 with a +200 km stage, going over Larrau. It is possible to go over that from the 'hard' side into Aubisque?

Granon MTF - Learned about it form PCM in a cool variant, going over Madeleine - > Croix de Fer (dno in which order) - > Telegraphe + Galibier - > Granon making it an epic day. Cut one of the first climbs of and its completely doable.

Pailheres - I absolutely love this climb. Is it possible NOT to finish on Ax-3 with it still being in the final? Otherwise, try to spice it up with some climbs in before instead of the approach which has been taken previosuly with the Pailheres-Ax-3 combo.

Madeleine - Do it from the hard side more often in the final. I dont care if its overused or whatever some people say (frankly, I say its not), its an epic climb which can create carnage. Put the Glandon/Croix de Fer in before and finish with a downhill without too much flat.

Chat - Just do this climb. I dont care if its completely flat before. Just do it.

I think the best way to use the Aubisque is a combination with Hautacam, at least its better than Tourmalet - Hautacam, with all the flat between these two climbs

There are numerous options to use the Granon, but I just don't think the ASO will use it soon. I think the Alp is just too near, so that the aso will always prefer to finish there instead

I fear Aix les Thermes is too small to host a tdf finish, so Ax-3 is probably the best combination. However there are also possibilities like Pailheres - Envalira and then a finish somewhere in andorra, and some others too, but that would take a lot of action off the pailheres if it is that early in the stage

I think there are many people who just like the madeleine, although it is overused. I am one of these too btw

Mont du Chat, just do it? Yes I think there isnt so much more to say about this climb

 

[ice&fire]

Re: Re:

I think the best way to use the Aubisque is a combination with Hautacam, at least its better than Tourmalet - Hautacam, with all the flat between these two climbs

There are numerous options to use the Granon, but I just don't think the ASO will use it soon. I think the Alp is just too near, so that the aso will always prefer to finish there instead

I fear Aix les Thermes is too small to host a tdf finish, so Ax-3 is probably the best combination. However there are also possibilities like Pailheres - Envalira and then a finish somewhere in andorra, and some others too, but that would take a lot of action off the pailheres if it is that early in the stage

I think there are many people who just like the madeleine, although it is overused. I am one of these too btw

Mont du Chat, just do it? Yes I think there isnt so much more to say about this climb

The Tour web site of the announced a few weeks ago that an agreement had been signed with the Government of Andorra for the return of the race next year. When the bid from Andorra was known a few months ago I suggested Pailheres + Envalira + that short vuelta stage they're doing in a few weeks.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

Chat - Just do this climb. I dont care if its completely flat before. Just do it.

My attempt at a not-totally-impossible Mont du Chat stage:

Mont du Chat there is 35km out, steep enough to almost ensure gaps, with a difficult descent and then a potential banana skin of a final climb before a descent finish. If La-Motte-Servolex can't host the finish, it's only a few km flat to Chambéry or Le Bourget-du-Lac. Granier is also nice and steep to soften the legs too. The only really concerning road would be the Épine descent, which probably needs some widening but isn't so much worse than the Pramartino descent from the 2011 race. The alternative is to replace it with a loop to the north using the Col du Chat instead, an easier final climb with a safer, but more technical, descent. Glandon isn't essential, you could start from any town in the Maurienne valley and do the rest of the stage - Modane, St Jean de Maurienne, etc.. I picked Bourg d'Oisans to start however as this would, imo, make an ideal race weekend, because it would mean:

- this stage, long and with the hardest climb near the end but not the final climb and with no MTF, would be the last mountain stage in the range so no reason to leave energy for the following days; the racing wouldn't be softened by the fear of the following day
- this would likely follow an Alpe d'Huez or Les-2-Alpes MTF, more likely the former. This would mean that the difficult stage wouldn't soften the previous day as such a famous and prestigious mountain would likely see action regardless and is hard enough to ensure time gaps of some kind
- unless the Tour was looping around and around itself as it tends to recently, we could potentially have a difficult first mountain stage prior to the weekend's stages further south towards Alpes-Maritimes, an area which has many great climbs we never see owing to not featuring in the Tour and being too high altitude or too difficult to be feasible for Paris-Nice

 

[Valv.Piti]

That looks great!

I forgot to put Granier: If im not mistaken, that was the climb that the horrible 2012-route used in the first part of the stage followed by some 150 km flat. I dont know if they can lost a MTF, but by the looks of the climb, it would be pretty ideal in regards to the 9 km, 9%, a real leg breaker. That day we also saw some decent action, imagine that climb in a final. I honestly like those climbs a lot more than the usual Tour MTF's at 13-18 kms at 6%-7%. Much more exciting racing.

 

[phil-i-am]

Well... I've been thinking about Finiestre a little bit. If Zomengan hadn't introduced it for Giro, we would never have witnessed such epic battles on this horrendous and yet magnificent climb. No one would even have used it in this tread, trying not to be too unrealistic. Sterrato is what makes this climb totally epic, wheras the asphated descent allows riders to go down safely. That makes me wonder. How many climb like this (sterrato ascent and paved descent) we can find?
Actually, I found a climb really close to finiestre. I would call it a baby version of the greatest climb all times. It's something like 11,7km at 7,6% and sterrato starting from the half of the climb. Don't even know the name of this climb because most of people that describe it don't turn left to use asphalted downhill to Susa, but the climb further on sterrato. Called it myself 'Campo Alardo' because of the name of the street. Check streetview. If Finiestre can be used in a pink race, this one definitely could be as well.

Don't have time now to design something 100% doable, so I just put here a monster I designed couple of months ago. It's quite short, but uses Montecenisio, Campo Alardo (the climb I described), the epic Colle delle Finiestre, Pian delle Alpe ( this is mentioned before Pra Catinat + steratto road that links it to Pian delle Alpe on Finiestre descent) and Sestriere (2x).

I'm sure it's to hard to be ever used in Giro, but cut out Pian delle Alpe and maybe we could see it if Zomengan is back or one of use become the race director.

This is a profile:

 

[malakassis]

Re: Re:

Chat - Just do this climb. I dont care if its completely flat before. Just do it.

My attempt at a not-totally-impossible Mont du Chat stage:

this looks actually great! but i think the sad truth is: ASO doesnt make 5000D+ stages anymore to keep as many contenders in game and not bonk. e.g. if there were two real tough pyrenees stages this year, TJ would have quit there, valverde,conta 5 min more down and nairo in yellow. but this is just not supposed to be as they are angry, korrupt,old white men

 

[roundabout]

Re:

If Zomengan hadn't introduced it for Giro, we would never have witnessed such epic battles on this horrendous and yet magnificent climb.

Could you please drop this myth?

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Chat - Just do this climb. I dont care if its completely flat before. Just do it.

My attempt at a not-totally-impossible Mont du Chat stage:

Great stage, that I could imagine after the Alpe d'Huez finish. Call me greedy , after Le Mont du Chat, I would go to finish atop Le Grand Colombier.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Well... I've been thinking about Finiestre a little bit. If Zomengan hadn't introduced it for Giro, we would never have witnessed such epic battles on this horrendous and yet magnificent climb. No one would even have used it in this tread, trying not to be too unrealistic. Sterrato is what makes this climb totally epic, wheras the asphated descent allows riders to go down safely. That makes me wonder. How many climb like this (sterrato ascent and paved descent) we can find?
Actually, I found a climb really close to finiestre. I would call it a baby version of the greatest climb all times. It's something like 11,7km at 7,6% and sterrato starting from the half of the climb. Don't even know the name of this climb because most of people that describe it don't turn left to use asphalted downhill to Susa, but the climb further on sterrato. Called it myself 'Campo Alardo' because of the name of the street. Check streetview. If Finiestre can be used in a pink race, this one definitely could be as well.

Don't have time now to design something 100% doable, so I just put here a monster I designed couple of months ago. It's quite short, but uses Montecenisio, Campo Alardo (the climb I described), the epic Colle delle Finiestre, Pian delle Alpe ( this is mentioned before Pra Catinat + steratto road that links it to Pian delle Alpe on Finiestre descent) and Sestriere (2x).

I'm sure it's to hard to be ever used in Giro, but cut out Pian delle Alpe and maybe we could see it if Zomengan is back or one of use become the race director.

This is a profile:

I am not sure if campo alardo is really usable. Not because its gravel, rather because the gravel looks really really rough.
Pian dell 'Alpe looks better however should be usable. You use the same descent like the finestre, right? However I think that this climb should better be used if you come from pinerolo and you want to finish in sestriere, because I think it is difficult enough to take a lot of action off the finestre. Btw, just imagine this climb in combination with the colle basset gravel route which was also already mentioned before. That would be absolutely great, although they would still need to pave some sections.

 

[ray j willings]

that's a stage

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

that's a stage

actually its only the last 14 kilometers of a 2013 km long stage