Renshaw back to being leadout?

[Wilba60]

The Omnium is a very new race to Australians and as I speak our man Glen O'Shea has just received the gold medal. Live racing here and I really enjoyed the event. Not sure how people find it boring. Congrats to O'Shea who overcame illness to get a silver in the mens team pursuit and then win the Omnium.

The German rider Foestermann who rode against Hoy has quads that make Greipel's look like matchsticks...amazing.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

He wanted to do the omnium during the Olympics, but he had no possibility to qualify anymore with his surgery during the winter. In potential I think he's the best omnium candidate for Holland.

he also did some omnium events but didn't do very well

 

[hatcher]

The Omnium is a very new race to Australians and as I speak our man Glen O'Shea has just received the gold medal. Live racing here and I really enjoyed the event. Not sure how people find it boring. Congrats to O'Shea who overcame illness to get a silver in the mens team pursuit and then win the Omnium.

The German rider Foestermann who rode against Hoy has quads that make Greipel's look like matchsticks...amazing.

I don't think people find it boring, it's just that it effectively replaced the hugely popular, and prestigious Individual Pursuit.

 

[theyoungest]

he also did some omnium events but didn't do very well

I don't think he ever actually did the omnium. Maybe you're confused with Marianne Vos.

 

[Tei6chai]

I don't want to re-open the track discussion but I don't think some people realize how important a breeding ground it is for young cyclists and it is popular in a lot more than 2 countries. Even though some see it as just a 4 year event, the Commonwealth countries have their own mini olympics every 4 years as well, timed to split Olympics so that they have a major objective every two years aside from World Cup events. I think that track has also added a lot to track cycling besides the cyclists themselves, bike technology, time trial techniques, skinsuits and speed. Graeme Brown won his Madison gold medal with Stuey O'Grady who has gone on be a pretty reasonable road cyclist. Wiggins, Thomas, Ignatiev, McGee, Lancaster, Roultson, Sergent, Michael Mørkøv, Alex Rasmussen are just a few names from the last two track Olympics who have all value added to road cycling IMHO.

You've missed the most relevant example possible from your list of road winners who learned their craft on the boards:

Mark Cavendish

Look at Cav's technique in the last 1km ... its nearly 100% track craft.

Awesome positional sense, bike handling second to none, incredibly low profile and that ability to accelerate, and to do it twice if necessary.

It's no coincidence that GB and AUS are now competing on the road at a level out of all proportion to the popular support for road cycling in their countries.

You can't listen to a single RAI road cycling broadcast these days without hearing commentators and riders connecting their lack of a track cycling base to the currently uncompetitive state of Italian road cycling.

 

[Wilba60]

I don't think people find it boring, it's just that it effectively replaced the hugely popular, and prestigious Individual Pursuit.

Sorry that was just lazy writing on my behalf, the comment of finding this boring was in relevance to earlier comments on this thread about track racing in general being boring......The Omnium is new though and will face teething problems especially in Australia where it replaces some very historical individual events but after last night there may be a lot of conversions with O'Shea winning and he is also a bit of a Cinderalla story.

Tei6chai, great further example with Cavendish. My "list" was just from a skim through the 04 and 08 Olympic athletes. Forgot about Cav as he had that unfortunate Madison with Wiggins.

 

[therhodeo]

Watching the end of that stage today and Bos wasn't far off from Farrar.

 

[richtea]

Omnium is a strange event for me. While I love the elimination race that forms part of it, there never seems to be anyone who regularly competes for the title. Its almost like throwing a dice

 

[auscyclefan94]

Why don't Rabo go back to Graeme Brown? I mean, he can position and work his way through a sprint good enough that his lack of top end speed won't matter anymore!

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Omnium is a strange event for me. While I love the elimination race that forms part of it, there never seems to be anyone who regularly competes for the title. Its almost like throwing a dice

Too many luck races in it. Combined winner of the TT elements should be the winner.

 

[FignonLeGrand]

Of course cross is only popular in Belgium, but the country is crazy about it. I don't get that feeling about track cycling in Britain (except during the Olympics).

I dont think track cycling is ever going to take over from football, cricket or rugby but it has a good following in the UK the events at Manchester are always sold out and there is quite a good local scene in London where the whole fixed gear craze had led many to try out a velodrome.

Lets not forget Japan I went to see a keiran race in Kobe must have been about 40,000 people there. Although in all honesty its just about gambling, could be dogs or horses and would be the same. In the Japanese races you dont even know the name of the rider you just bet on the colour.

 

[FignonLeGrand]

You've missed the most relevant example possible from your list of road winners who learned their craft on the boards:

Mark Cavendish

Look at Cav's technique in the last 1km ... its nearly 100% track craft.

Awesome positional sense, bike handling second to none, incredibly low profile and that ability to accelerate, and to do it twice if necessary.

It's no coincidence that GB and AUS are now competing on the road at a level out of all proportion to the popular support for road cycling in their countries.

You can't listen to a single RAI road cycling broadcast these days without hearing commentators and riders connecting their lack of a track cycling base to the currently uncompetitive state of Italian road cycling.

Well said. UK and AUS are 2 of the strongest emerging nations and its been based on the back of a good track system. I dont think its the only way but in the UK for sure where you have a very weak road cycling scene (police wont even close roads) the track has worked well.

As for Cav his ability to find the gap and then jump is 100% track

 

[woodie]

Too many luck races in it. Combined winner of the TT elements should be the winner.

Racing involves luck, knowing how to ride in a bunch, read a race as much as being strong and fast. As has been said so many times, if the strongest ALWAYS won it would be boring.

On top of that it is 3 timed events and 3 'luck' events. The omnium is about consistency and finding the best all rounder (on the track) so I think it's a perfect balance.

 

[movingtarget]

Well said. UK and AUS are 2 of the strongest emerging nations and its been based on the back of a good track system. I dont think its the only way but in the UK for sure where you have a very weak road cycling scene (police wont even close roads) the track has worked well.

As for Cav his ability to find the gap and then jump is 100% track

At club level in Australia, most of the young riders ride road and track. Track used to be very popular in Australia but as with many other countries now, the road is the more popular. Australia has a long history of world track champions. Track is obviously good for sprinting, positioning and riding tightly in a bunch. It has to help with bike handling. I think it all helps make a more versatile rider.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Racing involves luck, knowing how to ride in a bunch, read a race as much as being strong and fast. As has been said so many times, if the strongest ALWAYS won it would be boring.

On top of that it is 3 timed events and 3 'luck' events. The omnium is about consistency and finding the best all rounder (on the track) so I think it's a perfect balance.

The bunch events don't go to the best riders with the skills you list, because the pack gangs up on the leader - that sort of race without teams is 25% skill, 75% luck.

You might like weaker riders getting the luck, but I watch elite sport to see elite performances.

 

[Wilba60]

The bunch events don't go to the best riders with the skills you list, because the pack gangs up on the leader - that sort of race without teams is 25% skill, 75% luck.

You might like weaker riders getting the luck, but I watch elite sport to see elite performances.

As you wrote that I watched a most amazing elite performance. Whether you like track cycling or not, try and watch the World Cup points race that Cam Meyer has just won....won't give away how but it is an absolute thriller.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

As you wrote that I watched a most amazing elite performance. Whether you like track cycling or not, try and watch the World Cup points race that Cam Meyer has just won....won't give away how but it is an absolute thriller.

I saw it and it just highlights that the scoring system is woefully inadequate, because it assumes there is always a 'bunch' to lap.

Meyer took 1/2 a lap on Swift and was given a full 20 points against him because he lapped the laughing group.

 

[woodie]

The bunch events don't go to the best riders with the skills you list, because the pack gangs up on the leader - that sort of race without teams is 25% skill, 75% luck.

You might like weaker riders getting the luck, but I watch elite sport to see elite performances.

I like seeing the best rider win, if they happen to be the strongest great, if they are weaker but tactically superior and they happen to have good luck that's great too, it's what sport is all about.

In the Omnium you see the top riders marking each other as opposed to the bunch ganging up on them in the bunch races. If you want to see pure strength win there is the IP, I love that event too along with the sprints, the TP, the Madison, all of them. They all give different riders a chance to shine.

Are you really suggesting that that field wasn't elite? It seems to me you have a very naive view of cycling in general.

Would you argue that Glen O'Shea wasn't the strongest or one of? What about Laura Trott? Bike racing is about all sorts of different factors coming into play not just strength, that's one of the reason's it's such a great sport, IMO anyway.

 

[woodie]

I saw it and it just highlights that the scoring system is woefully inadequate, because it assumes there is always a 'bunch' to lap.

Meyer took 1/2 a lap on Swift and was given a full 20 points against him because he lapped the laughing group.

There was no laughing group in that race, there was Meyer and the Kiwi then a chase of 7 and then the remainder of the bunch, so there was a bunch to lap. The rules are clear.

If you want to see pure strength win I suggest weight lifting...

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

I like seeing the best rider win, if they happen to be the strongest great, if they are weaker but tactically superior and they happen to have good luck that's great too, it's what sport is all about.

In the Omnium you see the top riders marking each other as opposed to the bunch ganging up on them in the bunch races. If you want to see pure strength win there is the IP, I love that event too along with the sprints, the TP, the Madison, all of them. They all give different riders a chance to shine.

Are you really suggesting that that field wasn't elite? It seems to me you have a very naive view of cycling in general.

Would you argue that Glen O'Shea wasn't the strongest or one of? What about Laura Trott? Bike racing is about all sorts of different factors coming into play not just strength, that's one of the reason's it's such a great sport, IMO anyway.

Cycling can be about lots of things, but we're now heading towards an Olympics where there isn't a single individual event that rewards pure aerobic output. As such it loses significant connection with quality road racing, and becomes rather gimmicky.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

There was no laughing group in that race, there was Meyer and the Kiwi then a chase of 7 and then the remainder of the bunch, so there was a bunch to lap. The rules are clear.

If you want to see pure strength win I suggest weight lifting...

Nah, I can see weight-lifting in track sprinting.

A lap is worth 20 points, and Meyer was awarded 20 points relative to Swift despite only taking half a lap on him.

If they were to use the individual timing that already exists, make everyone ride a full 160 laps and deduct 1 point per second for everyone after the first man over the line, they would achieve exactly the same scoring system, with a full lap worth ~20 points, without the bizzare element where the race is decided by the pack of also-rans.

 

[movingtarget]

I saw it and it just highlights that the scoring system is woefully inadequate, because it assumes there is always a 'bunch' to lap.

Meyer took 1/2 a lap on Swift and was given a full 20 points against him because he lapped the laughing group.

That's the way it has always been. There is nothing lucky about it. Rules are rules. I think the argument about luck in track cycling is overblown. Riders gang up on individuals in road races as well. Obviously sprinting in a straight line is taken a lot more seriously than it is in road cycling. But I think track cycling has suffered with the overhaul of certain events or phasing them out completely. The Olympics is getting more and more pointless and the IOC is obviously run by fools similar to that other wonderful organisation called FIFA.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

That's the way it has always been. There is nothing lucky about it. Rules are rules. I think the argument about luck in track cycling is overblown. Riders gang up on individuals in road races as well. Obviously sprinting in a straight line is taken a lot more seriously than it is in road cycling. But I think track cycling has suffered with the overhaul of certain events or phasing them out completely. The Olympics is getting more and more pointless and the IOC is obviously run by fools similar to that other wonderful organisation called FIFA.

My point is that the rules are inadequate and lead to occasionally perverse results - the outcome of a race should not come down to the strength of the worst 8 riders in the last 5 laps. I'm not denying they were accurately applied, inadequate though they are.

 

[woodie]

Cycling can be about lots of things, but we're now heading towards an Olympics where there isn't a single individual event that rewards pure aerobic output. As such it loses significant connection with quality road racing, and becomes rather gimmicky.

Now we're talking about a different thing, I hate that the IP has been taken out of the Olympics as well but why does track cycling have to have a connection to road cycling??

And if the Olympics is 'losing the connection' and hence becoming irrelevant, well there is still the World Championships where we are seeing some amazing performances by elite athletes.

My point is that the rules are inadequate and lead to occasionally perverse results - the outcome of a race should not come down to the strength of the worst 8 riders in the last 5 laps. I'm not denying they were accurately applied, inadequate though they are.

That's the beauty of any bunch race, again if you want to see individual strength prevail as you seem to be suggesting there are other individual events that do that. That's not the point of the point score or omnium.

Also, have you ever raced track because it is in no way 'gimmicky'.

 

[theyoungest]

Cycling can be about lots of things, but we're now heading towards an Olympics where there isn't a single individual event that rewards pure aerobic output. As such it loses significant connection with quality road racing, and becomes rather gimmicky.

Quality road racing, where the Olympic title might go to Mark Cavendish, who has far from the biggest aerobic output in the peloton?