the artwork in the Vatican is as good as it gets,imo. the Bernini stuff alone is amazing. the religion is suspect, to say the least, but they had/have the dinero to buy some worldclass stuff.
Tank Engine said:Tolerance is a word that has come up from time to time here, sometimes lauded sometimes in a negative light. What is tolerance? Allowing something to occur through indifference or apathy is not tolerance. Tolerance should be an active appreciation of the freedom of other individuals and promotion of this freedom. Such an understanding implies the limits on what we call "toleration". We should not "tolerate" actions which impede the freedom of others.
Echoes said:Those who figure Religion is the cause of every war and ddeliberately ignore Stalin's crimes for example.
If it was my opium I would know it. Lol I haven't even always been a Christian ...
Kiara is a rational girl said:Au contraire, mon frère: tolerance, as per, you know, the dictionary, refers to the ability to endure. To be apathetic towards something is absolutely to tolerate it.
Kiara is a rational girl said:The sixth option is equally as foolish as two through four. It's untenably strong atheism. Just so you know.
Au contraire, mon frère: tolerance, as per, you know, the dictionary, refers to the ability to endure. To be apathetic towards something is absolutely to tolerate it.
oldborn said:I am thinking that Dan Brown 5$ pocket edition book is somehow some of you guys way of describing today Church. It is very popular these days to claim such a conspiracy theory towards Roman Church IMHO.
Fellas IMHO it is important to make a clear distinction between Church as institution and religion. Islam, Hindusim (which is IMHO Brits term invention), etc. has it.
There is no supreme byrocrat power or Church as we know, and religion is totaly different in way of living it.
It is not strange to modern western people to think at that way, even Mother Teresa if you read hers letters, had strugle in her faith and love, even her.
So why you think that you are somehow special?
rhubroma said:Never read him, nor would I.
Now you're starting to come accross as a bit far-fetched, which is lethal to one's arguments.
oldborn said:Nah, comrade rhubroma
They tried to make me go to rehab, I said, "No, no, no"
And thread title is "God on Trial", and want from me some evidences that gonna make you beleive, nah.
Keep looking comrade, keep looking, you are Infidel dude but that does not stop you making some pretty weak arguments against something that you do not even beleive, why do you care?
Socialist/communist/humanistic tool is to blunt for religion, I mean if you want evidence be lawyer![]()
Go in Peace comrade![]()
rhubroma said:The problem with your analysis, is that I don't need to make weak arguments to prove something, for which there are no proofs. Therefore, nobody is puting God on trial here. That's just the obsession of a certain some.
I have, however, presented some verifiable historical evidence, but only about evidence which is historically verifiable.
Everything else is mere speculation.
Cheers
oldborn said:I am thinking that Dan Brown 5$ pocket edition book is somehow some of you guys way of describing today Church. It is very popular these days to claim such a conspiracy theory towards Roman Church IMHO.
Fellas IMHO it is important to make a clear distinction between Church as institution and religion. Islam, Hindusim (which is IMHO Brits term invention), etc. has it.
There is no supreme byrocrat power or Church as we know, and religion is totaly different in way of living it.
It is not strange to modern western people to think at that way, even Mother Teresa if you read hers letters, had strugle in her faith and love, even her.
So why you think that you are somehow special?
rhubroma said:In my way of seeing things: tolerance means that my liberty stops, where my neighbor's begins (and, of course, vice versa).
Tank Engine said:I did read the first Dan Brown book. It was an entertaining read, but by the time I got half way through it, the whole premise seemed very sensationalist. I won't be reading him again.
Certainly, one should distinguish between the institution and the individuals. I have a lot of respect for many religious people (I guess mostly Christian as that is the culture I grew up in, e.g. Mother Teresa, Dietrich Bonhoeffer). It seems one thing that does link those people was that they did doubt.
Having said that, I live in a country (Ireland) where the institutional church is still very powerful (though that power is weakening). They way in which certain matters of economic and sexual exploitation within religious have been swept under the carpet by the religious hierarchy and the government has been frightening. Over 90% of the schools here are Catholic (I'm not saying that such schools shouldn't exist, but there is virtually no choice and as the Jesuits said "Give me a child until they're seven ....").
I don't think that Rhubroma (or I) think that we are special in being atheists. Maybe it's his academic style, since he is a specialist in the history of culture. I would probably sound patronising if I started talking about my academic speciality (well more than I do normally anyway). It's a choice that we've made out of the options available to us, just like many others have chosen a particular religion. That choice doesn't free us from making moral choices and is (from our point of view) more honest than struggling to believe something that we just can't.
oldborn said:No, no, no you did not understand me, which is not hard
I did not say that infidels are somehow special, I said that doubt, constant questioning, suspicious are not so special and everyone had it.
oldborn said:P.S. In my country Catholic priest, doctor and teacher are still three key figures in some small villages, so I am aware of Ireland
oldborn said:...
As for comrade rhubroma, he has Inner Battle issue to not belive and finding all sort of arguments to keep himself out of trouble![]()
oldborn said:Dude are you trying to kill me or what, I mean 1629 words for non native english speaker and on the 1/3 of the text I forgot what I was trying to say or why I am here at first place
Beside that joke, thanks for it I got your point comrade! I got the point.
Cheers!
P.S. Tank Engine, infidel i use as literally "one without faith", no other thoughts. Sorry if inappropriate.
Rouetheday said:Yeah, and when you use the word 'comrade' you just mean 'friend', right?![]()
oldborn said:No I mean left-wing oriented friend.
Rouetheday said:Well I guess that shuts me up!
By the way, isn't your avatar Donald Sutherland in the final scene of 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' (1978 version)? A great, creepy film!!
The Hitch said:The problem is, at least in the world I live in, we cannot argue with a Muslim that their religion influences people like Bin Laden. All they have to do is deny it. And we get mocked for claiming that we know more about Islam than the Muslim. Typical atheist arrogance. To think that we can argue with someone about their own religion.
The Muslim, so human logic goes, will always know more than a non Muslim about his religion. Same for all other religions.
oldborn said:Dude are you trying to kill me or what, I mean 1629 words for non native english speaker and on the 1/3 of the text I forgot what I was trying to say or why I am here at first place
Beside that joke, thanks for it I got your point comrade! I got the point.
Cheers!
P.S. Tank Engine, infidel i use as literally "one without faith", no other thoughts. Sorry if inappropriate.
oldborn said:P.S. Tank Engine, infidel i use as literally "one without faith", no other thoughts. Sorry if inappropriate.
Havetts said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qyjc4tIJK4Q
- I'm sure our Hitch would approve this too.