Echoes said:
Fascism wasn't conservative? Then what was it? You are obviously living in a world without regret.
PS. I noticed that you didn't answer my question, like Scott once upon a time in the US politics thread.
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Fascism wasn't conservative? Then what was it? You are obviously living in a world without regret.
PS. I noticed that you didn't answer my question, like Scott once upon a time in the US politics thread.
aphronesis said:
The horrors throughout history are legion. There's no end to it, Fallujah is perhaps the greatest horror story of all time. A horror with, essentially, no end - ever. We're getting better at it.
(btw, Rome fell but the pontifex maximus remains)
Regarding this back and forth about the Roman Catholic Church and Nazis and the rest:
Ratlines (World War II)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II)
Ustaše
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše
...and more recently...@45:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etbEQcA7jUA
One really only has to have a cursory glance at Papal Bulls from the 13th-15th century to understand the true megalomania of this institution. rhuborama has touched on this already and he could provide much more depth on the matter than I'm capable of but it's plainly written for anyone to see.
ps, I'd really love to see what's in the RCC libraries concerning ancient texts from the old and new worlds. One day perhaps...
No, I'm an atheist in that, while I can't assure there is no God, I believe there is none.
I understand the idea of religion and why people chose to believe. But unfortunately I also think religion is the root cause of most of the bad stuff in the world.
I understand the idea of religion and why people chose to believe. But unfortunately I also think religion is the root cause of most of the bad stuff in the world.
Yeah it seems that atheists are so well informed about history that their only source is Wikipedia.
I've already said on this thread that the ratlines have nothing to do with the Vatican. It's a handful of priests acting without their support but who had ties with OSS, and who feared the Communists. Hudal criticized Pius XII policy as being too tolerant towards the Bolsheviks (in his opinion), okay?
Sévillia showed it very convingly again. His source being David Alvarez and Robert Graham.
Why should the Vatican help defeated Nazis while they fought them for 13 years ???
Fascism isn't conservative, which means it was progressive. Of course they became more social in the thirties after the 1929 crisis but in the 1920's it was liberalism at its finest.
Oh and the Fascist army is based on conscription, which is highly un-Catholic...
I've already said on this thread that the ratlines have nothing to do with the Vatican. It's a handful of priests acting without their support but who had ties with OSS, and who feared the Communists. Hudal criticized Pius XII policy as being too tolerant towards the Bolsheviks (in his opinion), okay?
Sévillia showed it very convingly again. His source being David Alvarez and Robert Graham.
Why should the Vatican help defeated Nazis while they fought them for 13 years ???
Fascism isn't conservative, which means it was progressive. Of course they became more social in the thirties after the 1929 crisis but in the 1920's it was liberalism at its finest.
Oh and the Fascist army is based on conscription, which is highly un-Catholic...
Echoes said:Yeah it seems that atheists are so well informed about history that their only source is Wikipedia.
I've already said on this thread that the ratlines have nothing to do with the Vatican. It's a handful of priests acting without their support but who had ties with OSS, and who feared the Communists. Hudal criticized Pius XII policy as being too tolerant towards the Bolsheviks (in his opinion), okay?
Sévillia showed it very convingly again. His source being David Alvarez and Robert Graham.
Why should the Vatican help defeated Nazis while they fought them for 13 years ???
Fascism isn't conservative, which means it was progressive. Of course they became more social in the thirties after the 1929 crisis but in the 1920's it was liberalism at its finest.
Oh and the Fascist army is based on conscription, which is highly un-Catholic...
I don't count myself an atheist, I'm not blind to temporal power when it's standing naked and raw before me either.
wiki. is a good enough start for discussing the blatantly obvious in the face of such inane obfuscations.
I suppose Fascism is progressive in relating the myth of progress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Treaty
The agreements included a political treaty which created the state of the Vatican City and guaranteed full and independent sovereignty to the Holy See. The Pope was pledged to perpetual neutrality in international relations and to abstention from mediation in a controversy unless specifically requested by all parties. In the first article of the treaty, Italy reaffirmed the principle established in the 4 March 1848 Statute of the Kingdom of Italy, that "the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Religion is the only religion of the State".[16] The attached financial agreement was accepted as settlement of all the claims of the Holy See against Italy arising from the loss of temporal power in 1870
What great progress...
This all bores the $hit out of me so I'll bid y'all happy travels.
Chris Hedges at Moravian College: The Myth of Human Progress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNT3_qugjZU
Interview with Chris Busby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f8TneJ_pJo
"we're f*cked" yup
Even though, if religion was any good to mankind, i don't think atheists or anti-theists would start believing. At least, that is not the way i see it. I, for instance, do not believe because it is pathetic. As simple as that. My disbelief is not influenced by whether religion contributes to pain and suffering or not (which by the way, i think it does).
I don't believe in god(s) the same way i don't believe in the modern figure of Nikolaos the Wonderworker.
Religions, just like Coca-Cola's modern father christmas, are product of fertile imaginations.
Most religions have an arrogant view on the world from a human-only perspective. The human being is everything. I find it deeply irritating, because that usually leads to the witnessed physical abuse on other species.
I don't believe in god(s) the same way i don't believe in the modern figure of Nikolaos the Wonderworker.
Religions, just like Coca-Cola's modern father christmas, are product of fertile imaginations.
Most religions have an arrogant view on the world from a human-only perspective. The human being is everything. I find it deeply irritating, because that usually leads to the witnessed physical abuse on other species.
Eshnar
Moderator
better not diverging too much. Feel free to open a thread about it, if there isn't one already.BigMac said:
hrotha said:
Oh, right, it was socially progressive. At any rate I was really just refering to the right-wing nature of fascism as distingìuishable from the left-wing nature of other socialisms not based intrinsically on nationalism and other extremist (in many ways highly conservative) viewpoints.
RetroActive said:I don't count myself an atheist, I'm not blind to temporal power when it's standing naked and raw before me either.
wiki. is a good enough start for discussing the blatantly obvious in the face of such inane obfuscations.
I suppose Fascism is progressive in relating the myth of progress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Treaty
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1365086&postcount=546
Mussolini was an atheist like all Fascists are but took power in a country which was predominantly Christian, which means he had to deal with the Church. If he was to get back, he wouldn't need any Lateran Treaty (that is what happening with our good ole EU). Listen to what Gabriele Adinolfi has to say about religion and you'll see what Fascists think about it.
Besides, please stop referring to Wiki !
RetroActive said:
I know it's a myth. Why are you trying to convince me of something I'm already convinced of, lol? But could be interesting to watch, though.
Echoes said:http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1365086&postcount=546
Mussolini was an atheist like all Fascists are but took power in a country which was predominantly Christian, which means he had to deal with the Church. If he was to get back, he wouldn't need any Lateran Treaty (that is what happening with our good ole EU). Listen to what Gabriele Adinolfi has to say about religion and you'll see what Fascists think about it.
Besides, please stop referring to Wiki !
I know it's a myth. Why are you trying to convince me of something I'm already convinced of, lol? But could be interesting to watch, though.
All fascist were atheists? In fact fascism, among many Italian Catholics, became a religione-civile. A flock needs a shepherd.
If echoes had any knowledge of history, which he clearly does not, he would know that the founder and the leader of the Slovak Fascist Party in the 1930's, which allied itself with Hitler, were 2 Catholic priests.
I don’t believe in God, if you do or don’t it does not concern me in anyway - everyone is entitled to their own belief.
I will never try to make you understand that god doesn’t exist or tell you that you are wrong... as true believers will not be swayed until they get it themselves. It's like smokers or alcoholics, you need to want to and be open to the argument.
If you’re a Wee Free'er from the Islands round Scotland or that particular brand of American maniac against free speech and choice and pro creation (hehe) in America you will not be swayed by anything I say.
But I abhor religion, all and any variety of organised religion... it is toxic...
Saying all that the new pope seems to be talking sense from his Golden pulpit!! Lets see him giving away their assets.... bail out a couple of countries, I have no issues with them starting with Italy, then South America & all those catholic countries with indescribable poverty.
But of course Jesus provided them with a get out from having to do that... John 12:8 "there will be poor among you always..." (The quotes are facetious)
I will never try to make you understand that god doesn’t exist or tell you that you are wrong... as true believers will not be swayed until they get it themselves. It's like smokers or alcoholics, you need to want to and be open to the argument.
If you’re a Wee Free'er from the Islands round Scotland or that particular brand of American maniac against free speech and choice and pro creation (hehe) in America you will not be swayed by anything I say.
But I abhor religion, all and any variety of organised religion... it is toxic...
Saying all that the new pope seems to be talking sense from his Golden pulpit!! Lets see him giving away their assets.... bail out a couple of countries, I have no issues with them starting with Italy, then South America & all those catholic countries with indescribable poverty.
But of course Jesus provided them with a get out from having to do that... John 12:8 "there will be poor among you always..." (The quotes are facetious
)
He'd also know that Spain's brand of fascism incoporated what was called National Catholicism (although, to be fair, not ALL factions of Spanish fascism were for it).The Hitch said:
rhubroma said:
The shepherd was an atheist. That is what matters !
hrotha said:
Would you please stop uttering bull****. Franco was not a Fascist and neither were the Phalangists. Spanish Fascists were anti-Catholic.
But since you explain to us that Christians condoned slavery, I guess you aren't a worthy interlocutor...
Echoes said:
To you. Evidently one can indeed serve two masters.
PS: You then go on to assert that Franco wasn't a fascist (even if his dictatorship was approved by Hitler), though Hemingway would disagree. At any rate you then go on to claim that Spanish fascists were anti-Catholic, though as with the case of Mussolini and Italian fascism, this does not exclude that many Catholics were Fascist. Indeed most in these countries were willingly complicit. For this reason Hothra's is a cogent remark.
Francoism was fascist until it was obvious the Axis was going to lose the war, basically.Echoes said:
The Falange wasn't Catholic? BS.
http://www.filosofia.org/his/h1933a1.htm
How's that for starters.
Well, it did, whether you like it or not. It's a historical fact.
rhubroma said:
To history and to all the victims of his regime. If he weren't an atheist, he wouldn't have invaded Ethiopia.
The World is led by elites. I repeat you constant judging the common man shows how much of an elitist you are. You sound like Bernard-Henri Levy. He also constantly judges people.
rhubroma said:
A Christian cannot.
rhubroma said:
Not even the end of your sentence and already three errors.
1) Franco was not a Fascist
2) Hitler was not a Fascist
3) A regime that is approved by a foreign leader doesn't necessarily equated that of the foreign leader. Otherwise Saudi Arabia is a democracy right now.
1) Dozens of political analysts studied Franco's regime and came to the same conclusion: Javier Tusell, Stanley Payne, Manuel Perez Ledesma, Edward Malefakis, Virginie Philippe, ... Franco's regime was not a totalitarian state, there were different power centres (which he manipulated; "divide and conquer"), he didn't mobilize his people, did not wish to create a "New Order", etc. It was a classic dictatorship like there have been thousands in history but not a Fascist one.
2) Fascism is well-defined, the movement initiated by Mussolini in the 1920's. The doctrine of race superiority is not fascist.
3) Hitler like every political leader knew how to make pragmatic agreement with regime that was not the same as his. That's called 'realpolitik'.
Besides Hemingway is not a reference, I guess.
I did not say that !
If by historical fact, you mean invention from your own mind, then it's a historical fact.
Echoes is actually correct about Franco. Franco was indeed supporting the fascist part of the falange. But when he got the power he minimized thier ideology in favour of more like a technocratic society. He was an catholic nationalist though. And alot of his staff was die hard fascists.
Echoes said:
Sorry Echoes, the Catholic forerunners of my established mate were fascists. Hitler took inspiration from Mussolini and that is that, finally, if Italy were not to have invaded Ethiopia was it because of Queen Sheba? Though it did, with full Catholic support let me asure you. Capito?
rhubroma said:
Post Scriptum: Hitler was a fascist, though in a germanic way. National Socialism is fascist from the start.
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