Re: Re:
Maaaaaaaarten said:
Well, the thing is, my rational beliefs, my moral beliefs and my religious beliefs (and even more actually) are all closely connected in my worldview. So entering into the political arena leaving my religion completely behind wouldn't really be possible for me. I don't see the difference between somebody who has, say, a humanistic ideology and a naturalist worldview, bringing his moral beliefs based on his ideology and worldview into the political arena and a christian bringing his moral beliefs based on his ideology and worldview, which are closely intertwined with his religion.
You see, Marty, when an anti-theist states that we should distinguish politics from religion, that's nothing scary because the distinction between the Temporal and the Spiritual is in the Gospel: "Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar, Give God what belongs to God".
Of course, anti-theists in their usual dishonesty would claim that such quotes, you can interpret it the way you want because they are too uncultivated. The context of the quote makes it clear. You remember that it was a Pharisee showing Jesus a coin and asking whether we should pay tax to the Emperor or not. And as Pier Paolo Pasolini argued, it was perfectly consistent with Jesus' whole discourse.
However first, we considered it a distinction between the Temporal & the Spiritual but not a separation (the nuance is crucial of course) because ultimately the Spiritual Power should get the upper hand. Ultimately a good moral should mediate all our political and economic relationships. Otherwise it's the law of the strongest. But it does not determine it. That means that when a leader starts a war against another nation, it's not because God commanded it but it's a quest for energy and riches.
In that sense, Christianity revolutionised the world. As Fustel de Coulange showed in "The Ancient City" (a chapter I translated here), the previous civilizations were all based on superstition, in terms of politics or in terms of science (knowledge of the world): the Roman civilization, the Greek one, the Jewish one, the Persian one, etc. For the Greek, if there was a bad crop, an offering to Demeter would solve the problem.
Christianism swept all that away and with the distinction between the Temporal & the Spiritual, religion strictly becomes a set of moral values. So is the horrible Islam, since Islam was born out of Christianism. Islam even encourages knowledge/science. The two religions are clearly
universalist (beyond nations!), unlike a certain poster on here claims (I won't even name him because it would be doing him too much honour). That's why a modern-day admitted and assumed Fascist like Gabriele Adinolfi despised Christianism as "internationalist like all religions". So the distinction between religion and all material/temporal fields is the genius of Christianism.
Now we have to define what politics really is. Clearly politics should strictly deal with temporal and material matters: public order and the distribution of wealth (economy). They represent the interest of the city/nation abroad and the interest of the people on the inside. But that's it! Is marriage political? Well, it's debatable. We might argue that reproduction also regards the state but to me, marriage is essentially spiritual. So is education (which is linked). So normally, it should rather not regards the political representatives but does regards religion.
This leads us to a theme that I love, how many times in history atheistic statesmen, violated the distinction between the Temporal & the Spiritual? Actually it happened MUCH more often than otherwise. So atheists should rather shut up about this.
I'll just take one example. Emperor Nabulione Buonaparte signed up the Concordat with the weak pope Pius VII in 1801. Buonaparte was not religious at all: "All religions have been made by men", said this selfish, egomaniac, blood-thirsty, pretentious Corsican parvenu (sorry but it feels good, sometimes!!
).
So let's for example take organic article IX of the Concordat: "The bishops shall make a new circumscription of the parishes of their dioceses, which shall have effect
only after the consent of the Government." Mind your own business !!!