Review on doping within Cycling Australia

[DirtyWorks]

Cycling Australia employing someone who focussed on person development rather than just talent identification, would be a good start to developing a meaningful pastoral care program.

Except the IOC wants nothing to do with that. Understand the sports getting money from the IOC are doing it to develop athletes for the IOC show. Not a broad spectrum of sports participants, not a well developed person who happens to excel in cycling. They want exciting athletes for the 4-year show.

The collegiate system in the U.S. is already a full-blown development track, even in the wildly unpopular sport of competitive cycling. In the more popular sports, athletes are simply passed through the system.

 

[fatsprintking]

Except the IOC wants nothing to do with that. Understand the sports getting money from the IOC are doing it to develop athletes for the IOC show. Not a broad spectrum of sports participants, not a well developed person who happens to excel in cycling. They want exciting athletes for the 4-year show.

The collegiate system in the U.S. is already a full-blown development track, even in the wildly unpopular sport of competitive cycling.

Thats all true, but a review is a review and if it identifies that the above is part of the issue then that is great.

In Australia we also have just come through an olympics where a number of our athletes proved to be idiots who brought a huge amount of negative publicity to their sports in the once every 4 year cycle olympics show. From this there are already questions about the way athletes are developed in an appropriate way because athletic success needs to be matched to abilities to be able to communicate with people - which few Austrlaian olympains seemed to be able to do.

Also the paralymics has changed the game I think, with people seeming to embrace the greater sense of reality and spirit that was exhibited in London through the paralymics.

I know I am an idealist, but I am hopeful that there is a chance to break down models which are clearly never going to deal with the real reasons behind doping and a set of new structures might be created. I am making a choice to stop being cynical and to start looking for real solutions and for me junior development is where the effort gets the most reward.

We will see how that works out for me hey!!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Pastoral care = put out to pasture?

From wiki as it's not a bad definition for what I'm talking about:

Pastoral care can also be a term generally applied to the practice of looking after the personal and social wellbeing of children or students under the care of a teacher. It can encompass a wide variety of issues including health, social and moral education, behavior management and emotional support. This usage is more common in the United Kingdom and Commonwealth countries such as Australia and New Zealand, where it is also used for student support services at the university level.

 

[blackcat]

That’s right. I work in a school where we are producing some outstanding cyclists, but the pressure they get to throw in school in unbelievable. We are one of the top performing academic schools in Australia and 100% of our kids will go onto university. One of our best cyclists is just starting his VCE and is likely to be in the top one % in the state at year 12. He will most likely become a doctor and he has morons telling him that if he wants to succeed in cycling he needs to think about training full time.
The result of this is that the current system loses some of the best prospects from both a talent and personality point of view because there is no place for them in the current system.
It is also ironic that our town has produced a whole raft of national level juniors, because one guy with a bit of passion but no background in elite cycling got track cycling stated for junior school kids as safe and exciting sport option riding cobbled together bikes. (cheers Roger).
That program has led to over half a dozen state and national titles for juniors, but the transition into the old school development squads does not work for a lot of these kids who want to balance their studies with their riding and maybe even take a year off during their year 12.
Cycling Australia employing someone who focussed on person development rather than just talent identification, would be a good start to developing a meaningful pastoral care program.

the most successful cyclist in the world, left before his A levels, and worked for a bank. Managed the local branch at age 18. Then went to the continent. Dont need to be in Varese at 19 or 20. I would prefer them to go to Stanford, tho they dont have a scholarship program, they ride in the top league. Being a pro in Europe does not necessarily make you a competitive cyclist. Armstrong told the world it was a business and entertainment.

 

[skippy]

Wonder how we can bring this item to " James Wood 's " attention ?

http://t.co/BU3r7126

Youngsters are so easily led , they adopt " idols " as role models , so references to lounging around coffee shops , easy to believe !

Hard work as against a life on the bike would be easy to ignore . IF they knew the backstory of their coaches/mentors , would they then take the easy route ?

" Donati Report " portrays Oz as the source of so much PED Product that the Criminal Element must always be on the lookout for easy marks /

 

[blackcat]

Wonder how we can bring this item to " James Wood 's " attention ?

http://t.co/BU3r7126

Youngsters are so easily led , they adopt " idols " as role models , so references to lounging around coffee shops , easy to believe !

Hard work as against a life on the bike would be easy to ignore . IF they knew the backstory of their coaches/mentors , would they then take the easy route ?

" Donati Report " portrays Oz as the source of so much PED Product that the Criminal Element must always be on the lookout for easy marks /

well, they never gave a hoot about Werner Reiterer and M Vinnicombe did they.

nor Touretski an AIS. Canberra and Adelaide del monte

 

[peterst6906]

ASADA have just released information relating to an investigation into cycling in Australia (this is different to the Cycling Australia review).

Media and full details available at:

http://www.asada.gov.au/media/cycling_investigation.html

On the outside at least, it looks initially like a thorough review will be undertaken by ASADA independent of CA and with a focus specifically on doping within cycling.

 

[thehog]

ASADA have just released information relating to an investigation into cycling in Australia (this is different to the Cycling Australia review).

Media and full details available at:

http://www.asada.gov.au/media/cycling_investigation.html

On the outside at least, it looks initially like a thorough review will be undertaken by ASADA independent of CA and with a focus specifically on doping within cycling.

Will we ever see Michael Rogers again?

 

[blackcat]

well, they never gave a hoot about Werner Reiterer and M Vinnicombe did they.

nor Touretski an AIS. Canberra and Adelaide del monte

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636212.htm

bingo.

we got some bites of the apple.

Now just ask Elka Graham who offered her gear. Where Scott Miller got the steroids that turned up in his safe from. Why Thorpe was using Touretski. The Touretski whitewash in 2002. The lutenizing hormone. Etc etc et al et al. Come on folx, swimming is where the gem is at wrt doping in Oz.

 

[Tinman]

Feeling sorry for Thorpe?

Genuinely nice kid who got used?

No wonder he's struggling with mental health since...

Too big a secret to not come out... At some point. Maybe better sooner than later...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Now just ask Elka Graham who offered her gear. Where Scott Miller got the steroids that turned up in his safe from. Why Thorpe was using Touretski. The Touretski whitewash in 2002. The lutenizing hormone.

Huh? What? Oh, that was all soooooo long ago. [Reach into pocket for IOC response card and clears throat]
-It's in the past. $sport_XYZ is cleaner than ever.
-Athletes are the problem. $sport_XYZ is clean, not like cycling
-Drug testing works. We catch cheaters all the time, after the cameras are off and everyone has gone home.
-Drug testing is advanced. It is *very* difficult to figure out if athletes are doping. That's why testing is so infrequent. See: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-33747_1...stapchuk-stripped-of-olympic-gold-for-doping/

swimming is where the gem is at wrt doping in Oz.

Huh? no doping scandal here.. No one in the IOC knows what you are talking about. You are one of those conspiracy crazies, right??? Look over there! Another dirty cyclist!!!!

Blackcat you need to figure out how to get the IOC to pay for your silence. Maybe Pat might give you a trip to the TdF if you play your cards right.... Either that or mock you...

 

[Tinman]

Huh? no doping scandal here.. No one in the IOC knows what you are talking about. You are one of those conspiracy crazies, right??? Look over there! Another dirty cyclist!!!!

Too much water under the bridge, it's too quiet in swimming right now, too big a secret to hold. Someone will break, probably Ian himself. After the worlds...

 

[blackcat]

I dont think the athletes are the problem. Like Martin Hardie. The pressure at the 2012 London Olympics was immense, and absurd. The swimmers were expect to bring home a swag of metals

the swimmers have a halo more precious than Jesus at Easter

 

[durianrider]

Thats quite amazing Ian Thorpe's swimming coach was charged with possession of steroids and I didn't even know about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadi_Touretski

Cyclists are the dirty ones though. This is going to make for a fun youtube vid tomorrow...

 

[blackcat]

Thats quite amazing Ian Thorpe's swimming coach was charged with possession of steroids and I didn't even know about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadi_Touretski

Cyclists are the dirty ones though. This is going to make for a fun youtube vid tomorrow...

who was Elka Graham a housemate of? (not a partner). She lived as housemate with Miller. Before Miller was put up by Alan Jones. Before his marriage to that tv model/personality. And Miller thumped that guy in Atlanta at worlds in 1995, the year before the Olympics. They said the guy he thumped was a neo nazi who was beating up his partner. Perhaps he was. But perhaps it was roid rage like Nick D'Arcy. The public gotta wise up. Enable doping, then when the athletes have breakdowns, or positives, wipe hands of them. Dajka was treated horrendously by AIS I thought. (someone could correct me). Apart from D'Arcy and Monk, in Oz, the swimmers are treated like masters of the universe, and given hero worship in the media. And then they are expected to hold up to that standard. Its risible.

 

[questions]

OK, I've got a question that I think needs to be answered but no-one seems to be asking, and it sure as hell indicates to me that there has been corruption in Australian cycling for a long time.

Festina Affair: Neil Stephens.

Taken from the wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_affair

Neil Stephens, a Festina rider at the Tour, admits taking performance enhancing drugs but claims that he thought the EPO injections were vitamin C and E supplements.

November 28, 1998: The results of the analysis of the samples taken from the nine Festina riders are known and are subsequently released and revealed evidence of Human Growth Hormone, amphetamines, steroids, corticoids and Erythropoietin (EPO). In eight of the nine riders test positive for synthetic EPO. The results of the ninth rider (Christophe Moreau) were indeterminate but Moreau had already admitted use of EPO. Traces of amphetamines were found in the samples of Moreau, Pascal Hervé, Laurent Brochard and Didier Rous. Four riders had hematocrit levels below the legal limit of 50%, establish in February 1997 [32]. These included Virenque, Armin Meier, Moreau who had a level of 49.3 and Laurent Dufaux who had a level of 47.2%. Five riders were above the limit. Brochard had 50.3%, Neil Stephens 50.3%, Hervé 52.6%, Rous 51% and Alex Zülle 52.3%.

(I wasn't aware that a doping test existed for EPO in 1998, so this could be an error in the WIKI, or maybe it did, but it just wasn't approved yet?).

More information: http://inrng.com/2010/07/the-curse-of-stevo/

There is plently more info on the net... just google it.

This all occured in July of 1998... but... only two months later, with no sanction (and no investigation as far as I know), not only do the Australian officials turn a blind eye to the overwelming evidence, they go and select Neil Stephens to represent Australia in the Commonweath Games in September of 1998!

http://www.gettyimages.es/detail/fotograf%C3%ADa-de-noticias/neil-stephens-of-australia-and-festina-leads-fotograf%C3%ADa-de-noticias/1277406

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/sep98/cgmenrr.html

Many times over the following years he has held many official positions within Cycling Australia and other teams, while people like Mathew White and Steven Hodge get banished from the sport, this guy will gets off? And take into account that Neil Stephens was actually caught red handed, and White and Hodge admited to it before they had to resign.

Who in Cycling Australia approved the selection of Neil Stephens for the Commonweath Games of 1998 just two months after the Festina Affair while there was an official investigation taking place in other countries? Why was Neil Stephens not punished after admitting to using EPO and other drugs? Are these people still in positions of power? Why has nothing been said about this? Can anyone take EPO and after getting caught just say they thought it was vitamins and get off? Or is this an indication of corruption in Australian cycling?

 

[blackcat]

OK, I've got a question that I think needs to be answered but no-one seems to be asking, and it sure as hell indicates to me that there has been corruption in Australian cycling for a long time.

Festina Affair: Neil Stephens.

Taken from the wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_affair



(I wasn't aware that a doping test existed for EPO in 1998, so this could be an error in the WIKI, or maybe it did, but it just wasn't approved yet?).

More information: http://inrng.com/2010/07/the-curse-of-stevo/

There is plently more info on the net... just google it.

This all occured in July of 1998... but... only two months later, with no sanction (and no investigation as far as I know), not only do the Australian officials turn a blind eye to the overwelming evidence, they go and select Neil Stephens to represent Australia in the Commonweath Games in September of 1998!

http://www.gettyimages.es/detail/fotograf%C3%ADa-de-noticias/neil-stephens-of-australia-and-festina-leads-fotograf%C3%ADa-de-noticias/1277406

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/sep98/cgmenrr.html

Many times over the following years he has held many official positions within Cycling Australia and other teams, while people like Mathew White and Steven Hodge get banished from the sport, this guy will gets off? And take into account that Neil Stephens was actually caught red handed, and White and Hodge admited to it before they had to resign.

Who in Cycling Australia approved the selection of Neil Stephens for the Commonweath Games of 1998 just two months after the Festina Affair while there was an official investigation taking place in other countries? Why was Neil Stephens not punished after admitting to using EPO and other drugs? Are these people still in positions of power? Why has nothing been said about this? Can anyone take EPO and after getting caught just say they thought it was vitamins and get off? Or is this an indication of corruption in Australian cycling?

"Cowboy" Neil Stephens looks great in a ten gallon and shirtless with chesthair. Call him perhaps on youtube. very sexy.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Who in Cycling Australia approved the selection of Neil Stephens for the Commonweath Games of 1998 just two months after the Festina Affair while there was an official investigation taking place in other countries? Why was Neil Stephens not punished after admitting to using EPO and other drugs? Are these people still in positions of power? Why has nothing been said about this? Can anyone take EPO and after getting caught just say they thought it was vitamins and get off? Or is this an indication of corruption in Australian cycling?

AIS scientists published a paper around that period (March, 1997) which said:
1. 50% Hct rule is unfair
2. Aussies in Europe are training and racing in "clean environments" therefore their > 50% Hct values (2.8% of them) are natural therefore the rule is unfair
3. 25% of Aussie body builders had Hct > 50% therefore the rule is unfair (I have since learnt that testosterone triggers RBC increase)
4. 0.3% of netballers had a Hct > 50% (surprise surprise)
5. FIS implemented 18g/dL (54% Hct) and that should be the cutoff, not 50%

Of the people publishing that paper, 2 are still senior physiologists at AIS, 1 is the anti-doping hero of the world and one is on the UCI anti-doping panel and conducts exchanges online with Michele Ferrari.

 

[questions]

AIS scientists published a paper around that period (March, 1997) which said:
1. 50% Hct rule is unfair
2. Aussies in Europe are training and racing in "clean environments" therefore their > 50% Hct values (2.8% of them) are natural therefore the rule is unfair
3. 25% of Aussie body builders had Hct > 50% therefore the rule is unfair (I have since learnt that testosterone triggers RBC increase)
4. 0.3% of netballers had a Hct > 50% (surprise surprise)
5. FIS implemented 18g/dL (54% Hct) and that should be the cutoff, not 50%

Of the people publishing that paper, 2 are still senior physiologists at AIS, 1 is the anti-doping hero of the world and one is on the UCI anti-doping panel and conducts exchanges online with Michele Ferrari.

From what I have been let to believe, natural Hct level has a direct relationship with genetics, so if his Hct was over 50% then, it should be close now, right? Test it now.

But anyway, the fact that he admitted to EPO use, then said he thought they were vitamins shouldn't have been good enough for him to get off scot-free... and, the fact that the French were holding an investigation should have been enough for him to have been overlooked in the selection process for the Commonweath Games at least. And, also the fact that there wasn't an investigation done, and the fact that he has continued to work on and off with Cycling Australia is enough for me to think there is corruption. I really hope the ASADA look into this, if they weren't complicit, of course.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

From what I have been let to believe, natural Hct level has a direct relationship with genetics, so if his Hct was over 50% then, it should be close now, right? Test it now.

But anyway, the fact that he admitted to EPO use, then said he thought they were vitamins shouldn't have been good enough for him to get off scot-free... and, the fact that the French were holding an investigation should have been enough for him to have been overlooked in the selection process for the Commonweath Games at least. And, also the fact that there wasn't an investigation done, and the fact that he has continued to work on and off with Cycling Australia is enough for me to think there is corruption. I really hope the ASADA look into this, if they weren't complicit, of course.

I think it starts with ASC - as someone else mentioned. There's a 4 Corners story of someone's experience with the ASC investigation around a delivery of drugs and the absolute farce that resulted.

At the AIS level:

Medals = funding = your pay.
No medals = no funding = your job loss.

For any sport.

My problem with the AIS released paper is more along the lines of Liberty Seguros' posts discussing Brailsford's hiring of ex-dopers despite Sky's ZTP where there are 2 options:
1. the person making the claim is unintelligent
2. the person making the claim is being willfully misleading

For the top AIS scientists, 2 of which are cited as world anti-doping experts now, to get it so completely wrong wrt bodybuilders having high Hcts (for example) naturally or for cyclists to be in a clean environment and therefore naturally over 50% Hct attributes such low intelligence or experience with PEDs and athletes as to be troubling. This is 1997, EPO is already in use in the peloton, cyclists have died from using too much of it, and the 1998 Festina affair is only a year away.

 

[questions]

I think it starts with ASC - as someone else mentioned. There's a 4 Corners story of someone's experience with the ASC investigation around a delivery of drugs and the absolute farce that resulted.

At the AIS level:

Medals = funding = your pay.
No medals = no funding = your job loss.

For any sport.

My problem with the AIS released paper is more along the lines of Liberty Seguros' posts discussing Brailsford's hiring of ex-dopers despite Sky's ZTP where there are 2 options:
1. the person making the claim is unintelligent
2. the person making the claim is being willfully misleading

For the top AIS scientists, 2 of which are cited as world anti-doping experts now, to get it so completely wrong wrt bodybuilders having high Hcts (for example) naturally or for cyclists to be in a clean environment and therefore naturally over 50% Hct attributes such low intelligence or experience with PEDs and athletes as to be troubling. This is 1997, EPO is already in use in the peloton, cyclists have died from using too much of it, and the 1998 Festina affair is only a year away.

We are talking about two completely different things. My questions are:

1. - Who's decision was it to select Neil Stephens to represent Australia in the Commonwealth Games just 2 months after the Festina affair where the guy admited to having used EPO and other drugs, then retracted saying he thought there were vitamins?
2. - How could they justify selecting him while there was an ongoing investigation (where everyone else was proved to be guilty)?
3. - Why was he never investigated/punished?

 

[fatsprintking]

We are talking about two completely different things. My questions are:

1. - Who's decision was it to select Neil Stephens to represent Australia in the Commonwealth Games just 2 months after the Festina affair where the guy admited to having used EPO and other drugs, then retracted saying he thought there were vitamins?
2. - How could they justify selecting him while there was an ongoing investigation (where everyone else was proved to be guilty)?
3. - Why was he never investigated/punished?

Its not going to really matter is it? We already know that the more digging you do here, the more you are going to come up with a long list of both d---eads, and dodgey **** that implicates pretty much anyone that you know of that has been involved in the sport for the last 30 years.

People were either actively involved in what went on, knew but did nothing and are complicit and enablers, or they were really dumb and easily manipulated. Either way they are not the people to move the sport forward.

The general publics lack of understanding that anyone that they want to hear from has skin in the game in the wrong way means that all we are going to get is more f----g Pat Jonker, Phil Anderson and "voice of cycling" guff that treats us like idiots.

What I want to hear is from the people who had great talent but left the sport because they could see the play - people with real talent who hit the brick wall once they got to national representation level and called it a day rather than play the game. We have two of em in my town. I would love to hear their story, cause they ar ethe ones that have been f---d over by the sport and who were let down by cycling administration in Australia.

You dont have to be Einstein to work out who won the national championships and represented at a junior level but then got overtaken buy people that they had beaten for their whole junior careers when they got to Europe to work out the start of the list.

Talk to those people and ask them who suggested what when they were 19. That would be interesting reading. There would be a few blokes in Adelaide who would be pretty jumpy if they took that approach I reckon.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Its not going to really matter is it? We already know that the more digging you do here, the more you are going to come up with a long list of both d---eads, and dodgey **** that implicates pretty much anyone that you know of that has been involved in the sport for the last 30 years.

And how many would lose their jobs? Maybe one token loser. This is the disgusting beauty of the IOC system. Mostly invisible scumbags running the development system who are perfectly willing to bribe or dope to meet a goal. The nation has put tax dollars to the system too if I'm not mistaken!

People were either actively involved in what went on, knew but did nothing and are complicit and enablers

The know-nothings were kicked out. They won't do what needs to be done at any cost. Another common feature of the IOC system.

The general publics lack of understanding that anyone that they want to hear from has skin in the game in the wrong way means that all we are going to get is more f----g Pat Jonker, Phil Anderson and "voice of cycling" guff that treats us like idiots..

The goal is to monetize cycling and skim off the top of the revenue for personal gain. Fans and the appearance of a legitimate sport are secondary.

 

[questions]

Its not going to really matter is it? We already know that the more digging you do here, the more you are going to come up with a long list of both d---eads, and dodgey **** that implicates pretty much anyone that you know of that has been involved in the sport for the last 30 years.

People were either actively involved in what went on, knew but did nothing and are complicit and enablers, or they were really dumb and easily manipulated. Either way they are not the people to move the sport forward.

The general publics lack of understanding that anyone that they want to hear from has skin in the game in the wrong way means that all we are going to get is more f----g Pat Jonker, Phil Anderson and "voice of cycling" guff that treats us like idiots.

What I want to hear is from the people who had great talent but left the sport because they could see the play - people with real talent who hit the brick wall once they got to national representation level and called it a day rather than play the game. We have two of em in my town. I would love to hear their story, cause they ar ethe ones that have been f---d over by the sport and who were let down by cycling administration in Australia.

You dont have to be Einstein to work out who won the national championships and represented at a junior level but then got overtaken buy people that they had beaten for their whole junior careers when they got to Europe to work out the start of the list.

Talk to those people and ask them who suggested what when they were 19. That would be interesting reading. There would be a few blokes in Adelaide who would be pretty jumpy if they took that approach I reckon.

What do you mean its not going to matter? Of course it matters. It matters that the people that selected Neil Stephens for the national team just 2 months after the Festina affair have NO interest in a clean sport. These people are probably still in cycling and making the decisions that have brought us to where we are today. These people MUST go. It has nothing to do with punishing Neil Stephens, as he is just a victim of an era, but with the corrupt officials in the Australian system.

ASADA please investigate this also.

When I heard that he had been selected, I knew there was no hope. Australian cycling was corrupt to its core. I quit the sport, never to race my bike again. And I, like the two guys in your town, was state and national road champion as a junior. So yeah, you could say that I was ****ed over.

 

[peterst6906]

1. - Who's decision was it to select Neil Stephens to represent Australia in the Commonwealth Games just 2 months after the Festina affair where the guy admited to having used EPO and other drugs, then retracted saying he thought there were vitamins?

That would have been the National Selection (Road) Committee, but who was on that in 1998 I don't know (or don't remember if I ever did back then).

In hindsight, these types of selections look very questionable, but I think it's more a case that the committee acted in accordance with the 1998 selection policy and criteria, which was based around performance and teamwork aspects only. Not so much a case of corruption/incompetence by the selectors, but gaps in what we as fans/interested outsiders would like to have.

As long as a rider was not officially sanctioned, they were open for selection under the criteria previously published and if a rider felt they were left out of the squad unfairly, then they could have challenged the selection process in court.

Unfortunately, there was nothing (and still isn't that I am aware of, but will need to go and look) related to ethics, morals and/or riders under investigation as being reasons to exclude. Without an official sanction, there was no basis to exclude a rider from consideration.

2. - How could they justify selecting him while there was an ongoing investigation (where everyone else was proved to be guilty)?

Same as previous point. The documented and published selection criteria didn't cover that type of issue. Official sanctions were the criteria to exclude a rider.

Hopefully that changes and with the AOC moving towards requiring statutory declarations from athletes before being considered for selection, this situation hopefully won't occur again in the future.

3. - Why was he never investigated/punished?

He was, just not in Australia. That's a questionable thing on the outside and probably worth asking that of the ASADA investigation as a cycling fan (after all, they've asked for information from anyone with relevant details and that is the sort of question that is relevant, even if 14 years is a long time ago).