Riccò hospitalized for possible kidney ailment

[hektoren]

...Troll!

Running out of arguments, clutching at straws, are we?

As I said, if you know something, disregard the omertá......I'm still all ears.

 

[hrotha]

Oh, so you DO know something about the management, PED-wise, on CSC then. I'm all ears.........

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,492215,00.html

 

[Barrus]

Last chance, form now on the same rules as for mentioning Armstrong are in effect for this thread. You can discuss reaction, don't go into long debates about whether someone doped

 

[rhubroma]

Running out of arguments, clutching at straws, are we?

As I said, if you know something, disregard the omertá......I'm still all ears.

How useless is a decent education. When I read your posts I'm remind that an educated fool is not more foolish than an ignorant one.

 

[rhubroma]

Last chance, form now on the same rules as for mentioning Armstrong are in effect for this thread. You can discuss reaction, don't go into long debates about whether someone doped

Well we were discussing, Barrus, the comments of other riders in regards to Ricco's case, and all the circumstances surrounding his case, which naturally brought up all the rest.

I don't see the problem here.

Whereas I never said such and such a rider doped, though because of so and so's harsh comments, I was naturally reminded of also all the circumstances surrounding this rider's career (manager, former teammates, palmares etc) because of the comments he made and thus was naturally left to suspect such comments made by this so and so were at the very least inappropriate.

 

[Arnout]

none as yet but if as the paper is correct in its reporting Ricco is now under investigation. I bet the police have been to his apartment and checked it out.

The police can also decide to take a look without hard proof that there is something wrong (remember the earlier Ricco episode with the sleep pills or the look for Valverde proof).

 

[Barrus]

Well we were discussing, Barrus, the comments of other riders in regards to Ricco's case, and all the circumstances surrounding his case, which naturally brought up all the rest.

I don't see the problem here.

This entire thread turned into a debate of whether other riders doped, that is nowhere near the topic of this thread and obfuscated the topic of this thread, also the tone took quite a nasty turn. If you want to discuss BMC, Cancellara or who ever do so in a different thread

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe it was all Riccò's doing, once he thought "hey I'm not in critical condition anymore, time to think what's going to happen when I get out of this here hospital."

maybe he got a call from the Mapei centre

 

[rhubroma]

This entire thread turned into a debate of whether other riders doped, that is nowhere near the topic of this thread and obfuscated the topic of this thread, also the tone took quite a nasty turn. If you want to discuss BMC, Cancellara or who ever do so in a different thread

I explained my reasoning in an addition above.

It isn't worth further discussion.

 

[Barrus]

Whereas I never said such and such a rider doped, though because of so and so's harsh comments, I was naturally reminded of also all the circumstances surrounding this rider's career (manager, former teammates, palmares etc) because of the comments he made and thus was naturally left to suspect such comments made by this so and so were at the very least inappropriate.

Concerning your addition, I totally agree with this aspect and it can be discussed, however it was Hektoren stating he wanted evidence of doping and thus it would devolve into a discussion of CSC and Cancellara doping. If you see, I let your initial statement that you were dissatisfied with his statements completely intact

 

[Zigster]

SeriousRicco is done with this thread

 

[rhubroma]

Concerning your addition, I totally agree with this aspect and it can be discussed, however it was Hektoren stating he wanted evidence of doping and thus it would devolve into a discussion of CSC and Cancellara doping. If you see, I let your initial statement that you were dissatisfied with his statements completely intact

Yes, well I was quite taken aback by Herr Hektoren's viewpoint. As if I wanted to have to explain why anybody working in the Riis environment, after Basso and Hamilton, to say nothing of the Dane's own 96 Tour win, would not be looked upon with a set of unsuspecting and a-critical eyes. At the very least that person should prudently consider measuring his statements against how a by now thoroughly skeptical and increasingly cynical watching public will receive them.

But, again, there is no further need to discuss this if as you say it amounts to futile bantering.

If their is any lesson to be learned, I think it is how Ricco's apparently unconscionable scenario reminds us that appearances are just that, appearances.

It would be wise if Cancellara realized this too.

 

[Escarabajo]

I am about to quit this forum.

I am already upset with these two moderators. There are some topics related with the story that are talked about, so what is wrong with that. If it deviates a little but is still related with the topic let it go. Don't be obsessed with the topic. It will die by itself.

And please don't send me to the submit your claims thread because nobody will read it.

Thanks.

 

[TomasC]

A nice reflection: Riccò the perfect pariah.
I like the "rider with a haematocrit higher than his IQ" bit, although it actually may not be true .

 

[hrotha]

I am about to quit this forum.

I am already upset with these two moderators. There are some topics related with the story that are talked about, so what is wrong with that. If it deviates a little but is still related with the topic let it go. Don't be obsessed with the topic. It will die by itself.

And please don't send me to the submit your claims thread because nobody will read it.

Thanks.

There's another thread right here discussing pretty much the same things that are getting deleted from here.

 

[Barrus]

Well **** you guys, I'm off for a while. You guys ask for one thing, we try to do it and we get more complaints to do something else

 

[Race Radio]

I am about to quit this forum.

I am already upset with these two moderators. There are some topics related with the story that are talked about, so what is wrong with that. If it deviates a little but is still related with the topic let it go. Don't be obsessed with the topic. It will die by itself.

And please don't send me to the submit your claims thread because nobody will read it.

Thanks.

There is a pretty good thread about the hypocrisy of some of the Pro's reactions here

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=12314

 

[mitochondrion]

If Ricco had help?

Years on and the methods remain the same- endemic autologous blood transfusion.

Ricco seems to have autotransfused a bacterially contaminated blood bag and given himself multiple organ failure/ dysfunction.

Does this mean the medical expertise he previously enlisted was no longer available and he tried a technique that had worked before?

The Cobra was under pressure to show a good 'clean' result, other riders have managed to repeat 'clean' grand tour winning performances.

 

[ansimi]

Does anybody know if giving oneself a blood transfusion is in itself a criminal offence in Italy? Or is it just a crime if it's part of a sporting fraud?

I tend to think that I should be allowed to keep my own blood in my own fridge and inject it into my own body if I really want to. People do stranger and more dangerous things as part of crazy natural healing ideas or fetishes.

 

[ulrikmm]

Does anybody know if giving oneself a blood transfusion is in itself a criminal offence in Italy? Or is it just a crime if it's part of a sporting fraud?

I tend to think that I should be allowed to keep my own blood in my own fridge and inject it into my own body if I really want to. People do stranger and more dangerous things as part of crazy natural healing ideas or fetishes.

Could you elaborate the arguments in favor of kitchen table transfusions. The arguments against are clearly demonstrated by Riccos case.

 

[Cobblestones]

Years on and the methods remain the same- endemic autologous blood transfusion.

Ricco seems to have autotransfused a bacterially contaminated blood bag and given himself multiple organ failure/ dysfunction.

Does this mean the medical expertise he previously enlisted was no longer available and he tried a technique that had worked before?

The Cobra was under pressure to show a good 'clean' result, other riders have managed to repeat 'clean' grand tour winning performances.

That would be my guess as well.

No wins, no money. No money, no 'expert' help. So he was left with a 'do it yourself' fix which went wrong.

Why are most of the caught dopers from the lower ranks? Because they cannot afford 'expert' help with right dosage etc. So they take too little (useless) too much (get busted) or screw it up somehow Ricco-style.

They big guys get busted only when even the 'experts' are caught by surprise. For instance by sending a sample to Cologne where Clen can be measured much better than anywhere else.

 

[rhubroma]

A nice reflection: Riccò the perfect pariah.
I like the "rider with a haematocrit higher than his IQ" bit, although it actually may not be true .

Oh, I found the piece to be generally a bunch of moralistic drivel. And the end just took the cake:

As for Riccardo Riccò the former cyclist, we can only echo Italian Cycling Federation president Renato di Rocco in hoping that he can carve out a life after and well away from cycling. Christophe Bassons, the former Festina rider, eloquently explained last week that the temptation to dope always arises from a void or insecurity, and it was always clear with Riccò that attention and success were more addictive drugs than anything stored in his freezer. Perhaps more importantly, they were an alternative - his only one - to mediocrity.

Even that, though, he must now agree, was surely preferable to a hospital bed or an early grave.

The problem with Ricco' has noting to do with his "mediocrity", but to the contrary that he had loads of talent. And actually had enough "self-awareness" to realize he was among a very select class of rider who could compete for victories in the grand tours.

In cycling this means you have to keep pace with your competitors and do what is "necessary" to beat them, also because this is what they are doing to beat you. No grand tour winner, consequently, going back over the past 20 years (and perhaps even longer) is beyond a reasonable doubt in regards to guilt in this matter. This is the reality, while those chosen to the select club simply exist in a system and thus comport themselves according to its rules on how the game is to be played, or else loose membership.

The appearance of a sport that is trying to reform itself that Ricco's actions seem to so blatantly scorn, is in fact manipulative and misleading in the utmost, because those involved within it are the first to understand how club membership is obtained and held. In this sense the Italian rider risked having to pay the ultimate price for having to support the false image to maintain his club membership, while privately living a reality in which he is not the exclusive resident. Though not for this is his behavior any less condemnable, nor is he relieved of a personal responsibility (one in but a long chain of responsibility holders).

Ricco's "accident" merely has been publicly exposed, though we can be sure that its exceptional quality suggests a much more widespread practice that no one ever sees or reads about in the dailies.

I realize it is impossible to condemn without incriminating evidence and eye-witness testimony, though this isn't the fans job anyway. Yet we have read enough and seen enough, in many cases experienced enough too, over the past several decades to no longer be charmed by all the nice appearances. Lest the sleep of reason produces even greater monsters.

 

[Cobblestones]

Does anybody know if giving oneself a blood transfusion is in itself a criminal offence in Italy? Or is it just a crime if it's part of a sporting fraud?

I tend to think that I should be allowed to keep my own blood in my own fridge and inject it into my own body if I really want to. People do stranger and more dangerous things as part of crazy natural healing ideas or fetishes.

I think you gave the answer yourself. Doping seen as sporting fraud has become more and more worked into national law around the world. I'm not sure where Italy is in this process. I'm pretty sure France is one of the countries leading the way.

 

[BotanyBay]

Lots of stories about people wanting to investigate him, fire him, etc.

Very few stories that concern his physical condition.

Sad.

 

[hektoren]

Yes, well I was quite taken aback by Herr Hektoren's viewpoint. As if I wanted to have to explain why anybody working in the Riis environment, after Basso and Hamilton, to say nothing of the Dane's own 96 Tour win, would not be looked upon with a set of unsuspecting and a-critical eyes. At the very least that person should prudently consider measuring his statements against how a by now thoroughly skeptical and increasingly cynical watching public will receive them.

But, again, there is no further need to discuss this if as you say it amounts to futile bantering.

If their is any lesson to be learned, I think it is how Ricco's apparently unconscionable scenario reminds us that appearances are just that, appearances.

It would be wise if Cancellara realized this too.

Well, you started it. Suspecting and critical eyes are so totally OK, but when you make the claim that Cancellaras comments re. Riccò are hypocritical and a clever perpetuation of omertà, you'd better back up your defamation with facts.