Riccò hospitalized for possible kidney ailment

[hrotha]

Is that what you got from this thread? You might want to read it again, then.

The thing is, Riccò's career is most definitely over. He stopped being part of the problem.

 

[Francois the Postman]

The team just announced that they have fired him.Susan

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698...4/2011/02/19/Vacansoleil-ontslaat-Ricco.dhtml

[in short:]

Dismissed for breaking "internal rules". Rico was given the right to reply [a right enshrined in Italian Employment Law], after which his contract was terminated.

"No comment" by team manager Luijkx on what Rico's response was, as it is "a medical secret". But Luijkx does say that it led to the conclusion that Rico had broken internal rules.

Luijkx did ask himself if they (partly) had themselves to blame for the situation. "We did tell him he would be closely monitored, but we also gave him freedom to surround himself with his own people. We wanted to take some of the pressure away from him. We thought he'd made a mistake, and wouldn't be doing that a second time."

Luijkx says he feels left with "...a bad feeling. It's bad for the sport, but I mainly worry for Rico, the human being. He's 27, a world talent, but with a career that has ended. That will have a huge impact on him."

Luijkx has decided to keep Mosquera sidelined for the time being, as long as there is no clarity about his case. "We want to give a clear signal."

He doesn't expect any consequences for the team's status, even if he might lose both riders. ""We would still have all the points we need."

 

[MarkvW]

This shows how the Clinic works. Everyone is a doper and should be demonised -let's look at what they've won and who they've ridden for.

But if you're two time proven doper then you're an innocent victim of UCI politics. If they've had their livelihood taken away from them they're a hero. A victim of McQuaid, an easy scapegoat, a devil,for the peloton.

If you buy into this, then you're a moron.

Your post is typical of a type of Clinic post. (a) You generalize about "the Clinic," as if it were a homogenous thing; (b) You set up a straw man argument; and (c) you attack your own argument.

Bravo! You belong here!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698...4/2011/02/19/Vacansoleil-ontslaat-Ricco.dhtml


Luijkx has decided to keep Mosquera sidelined for the time being, as long as there is no clarity about his case. "We want to give a clear signal."

He doesn't expect any consequences for the team's status, even if he might lose both riders. ""We would still have all the points we need."

Isn't that the kicker! Regardless of what 'their' riders are doing, the organization gets to keep the points.

Once again, we're back to the neccessity of hammering the team structure vs. hammering the individual riders.

Someone a lot wiser than me once said that "no man is an island", and I'm pretty sure it wasn't Race Radio (for those with a conspiratorial bent)...

 

[Francois the Postman]

Isn't that the kicker! Regardless of what 'their' riders are doing, the organization gets to keep the points.

You are reading something he ain't saying.

He suggests that without the points of either Rico, or Mosquera, or both, they would still make the cut. He says that they don't need them, and is not challenging the possability that they would be removed, but addressing the hypothetical situation that these points are taken away.

Also, remember, after the news broke that Mosquera, a rider Vacansoleil had just signed, and who was not under any particular suspicion when they contracted him, that he would be investigated for a Vuelta discrepancy, Vacansoleil volunteered to have Mosquera's points completely ignored, something they were not obliged to do by any UCI rules.

So for anyone [in general] to suggest that this team is signing riders "just to get or keep the points"doesn't hold water at all. They acted exactly in the opposite direction of what some people are trying to depict it as doing.

Neither does that need to be "the kicker" here, as it could well be that one rider's points were not included already, if the UCI took the suggestion on board. What happens behind those committee doors, I have no idea.

But in general, yes, the consequences of the point system as it is currently in place trigger all sorts of weird complications.

I guess we might differ on how unreasonable it is for a team (and to the other riders on that team) to lose the rider's points or its status when a rider goes rogue and dopes. [if I read it correctly and you are of the opinion that a team should lose the points].

You could start to hold the wrong people hostage to things that a team might be able to influence to some extent, but no-one can control as an absolute. Team doping, that's another issue.

 

[rhubroma]

You are reading something he ain't saying.

He suggests that without the points of either Rico, or Mosquera, or both, they would still make the cut. He says that they don't need them, and is not challenging the possability that they would be removed, but addressing the hypothetical situation that these points are taken away.

Also, remember, after the news broke that Mosquera, a rider Vacansoleil had just signed, and who was not under any particular suspicion when they contracted him, that he would be investigated for a Vuelta discrepancy, Vacansoleil volunteered to have Mosquera's points completely ignored, something they were not obliged to do by any UCI rules.

So for anyone [in general] to suggest that this team is signing riders "just to get or keep the points"doesn't hold water at all. They acted exactly in the opposite direction of what some people are trying to depict it as doing.

Neither does that need to be "the kicker" here, as it could well be that one rider's points were not included already, if the UCI took the suggestion on board. What happens behind those committee doors, I have no idea.

But in general, yes, the consequences of the point system as it is currently in place trigger all sorts of weird complications.

I guess we might differ on how unreasonable it is for a team (and to the other riders on that team) to lose the rider's points or its status when a rider goes rogue and dopes. [if I read it correctly and you are of the opinion that a team should lose the points].

You could start to hold the wrong people hostage to things that a team might be able to influence to some extent, but no-one can control as an absolute. Team doping, that's another issue.

I honestly wouldn't know if Vaco, or any other team for that matter, signs riders "just to get or keep points" (even if I had speculated that this was the case with Riccò), however simple logic would suggest that teams sign riders with the racing calendar in mind and points help determine entrance to certain big events. Ergo...

In any case, aside from the sarcasm, Vaco's comportment, in light of the current situation, may simply be intended to save face for the future and has merely given up on a season that's been fatally compromised.

I don't think, consequently, the other hypothesis that you claim "doesn't hold water" is necessarily the case.

 

[rhubroma]

This in from today's Gazzetta dello Sport:

...Il giorno prima la Vacansoliel aveva già escluso dall'organico lo spagnolo Maschquera: un accelerazione forse suggerita dal eischio "politico" di perdere la licenza World Tour.

and also...

(Riccò) Però ha già parlato sul suo profilo Facebook: "Leggere i quotidiani è come leggere i giornali di gossip, mi fare ridere cari giornalisti, ah, ah, ah!!!
La vendetta è un piatto che va servito freddo!!!"

 

[andy1234]

Your post is typical of a type of Clinic post. (a) You generalize about "the Clinic," as if it were a homogenous thing; (b) You set up a straw man argument; and (c) you attack your own argument.

Bravo! You belong here!

A) its easy to generalize about the clinic, most people here have the same opinions.
B) If you observe something, point it out, then criticise it, it is a strawman. It doesnt make the observation any less valid.
C) see above.

Like lots of people who post here, you concern yourself with the motives and methods of each post more than the content.
Its not intelligent, its just boring...

 

[Francois the Postman]

I honestly wouldn't know if Vaco, or any other team for that matter, signs riders "just to get or keep points" (even if I had speculated that this was the case with Riccò), however simple logic would suggest that teams sign riders with the racing calendar in mind and points help determine entrance to certain big events. Ergo...

The allegation by some is that Vacansoleil did something extraordinary here: that it signed these 2 riders in specific to get over the required threshold. Like Pegasus, trying to sign the points to make the maths add up and acquire a status that it would not have without. But if Vacansoleil had enough points without, the much simpler explanation is that they signed these two riders firmly looking at their race potential, not their point asset.

With Mosquera in particular they did not take some special risk, as at the time of signing, he was pretty much like any other rider in the field.

Ricco was a special risk, but I expect that the genuine (naive) thinking was that no-one could be that stupid, and they would happily settle for a Vino-type situation, a tainted rider that would have to be careful on his comeback, but who was probably good enough to do well, clever enough to keep his nose clean (enough), and would let a small team like Vacansoleil punch above its weight. A signing beyond their normal reach, courtesy of Ricco's tainted past.

So Ricco was a gamble they took. But it looks like he too was signed purely for his race potential, not to "bank the points and after that...who cares". That last bit is the sentiment behind the comments that some have thrown in the signing strategy by the team. That is what I objected to.

If they would have been interested in his points, they wouldn't have signed him, as they didn't desperately need them and would have easily been able to secure a buffer on top of what they already had contracted through another route, if it was for "the buffer". Why risk signing that sort of rider for points only? So the signing was not "for the points", with this guy.

In any case, aside from the sarcasm, Vaco's comportment, in light of the current situation, may simply be intended to save face for the future and has merely given up on a season that's been fatally compromised.

I suspect it is a blow for what they were hoping for in 2011, with these 2 in the team. There must have been some excitement, given where they thought they were already, a few years after their ambitious plans. But even without these 2, or 1, I would be amazed if Vacansoleil is "fatally" anything. They will be visible with or without. They always have been.

But yes, I am not too naive to know that it is easy to say "don't count Mosquera" if you know you don't need the points. But there have been plenty of teams that have used their star riders the moment they were green lighted, or raced them with serious questions hanging over them. This is where they do go beyond the call of duty.

Sure, that will have been decided with image management in mind [and as a cynic, with riders like Hoogerland still within the ranks]. All the more since they stated they were gonna race Mosquera before they got Ricco on top.

But they don't have to, and plenty other teams fielded their tainted stars the moment they got half an excuse. The UCI gave Vacansoleil an excuse. They didn't use it.

And they also haven't been grandstanding on the doping issue like some other teams have. I think this team's angle really has been to focus on injecting race excitement [pun intended]. This has been their "what we bring to cycling" calling card. Their sponsor too seems to care less about actual result and has been pretty happy with the visibility and attitude.

Sure, they have some question marks within their team, which team hasn't? [by Clinic speculation standards] And sure, they have more on their hands than they bargained for, so some image management will be taken place.

But that was not my main point of contention to those that portray the team from the "they got these 2 risk riders for the points" angle. I can't see how this became "about the points". One was not under any suspicion, and the other's points were not needed in any special way. His legs were welcome. So the claims that "it was all about the points in some special mathsy small-team-going-large way" does not stand up to scrutiny.

I don't think, consequently, the other hypothesis that you claim "doesn't hold water" is necessarily the case.

What "other" one? That was my main hypothesis. And how does "they are managing an image now" have any consequences for what they were thinking when they made the signings?

 

[rhubroma]

....
But that was not my main point of contention to those that portray the team from the "they got these 2 risk riders for the points" angle. I can't see how this became "about the points". One was not under any suspicion, and the other's points were not needed in any special way. His legs were welcome. So the claims that "it was all about the points in some special mathsy small-team-going-large way" does not stand up to scrutiny.

What "other" one? That was my main hypothesis. And how does "they are managing an image now" have any consequences for what they were thinking when they made the signings?

I was refering not to your hypothesis, but to that other one that says the points mattered.

Managing and image now has nothing, of course, to do with why they hired the riders then, though I don't see the relevance to your point. It would seem that Riccò was hired to ensure Vaca a spot at the Giro and possibly Tour as well. My speculation was merely that points played a factor into why they hired him.

I understand your reasoning. Mine, however, was simply intended to propose that, despite such points as you have made, we can't categorically dismiss the other hypothesis that the points were an issue. This is why I threw in the Gazzetta dello Sport comment about the "political" situation the Italian and Spanish riders' exit has created between the squadra and the UCI.

But, like I admitted before, I really wouldn't know.

 

[Finbouy]

Well it seems like the Vaco Mgt did the right thing. I couldn't live with employing someone who busted our internal rules either. Sometimes you hand someone enough string and they go and hang themselves with it. Wouldn't want to blame Vaco's Mgt of handling Ricco, they know him far far better than I do, but as stated earlier, they allowed him enough freedom to manage himself, and he took his own actions..
At 27 and a huge talent it's a shame to loose someone of his ability and potential.
I hope he's mentally capable of holding this together, wouldn't want to hear him falling off the edge into a pittful life from here on in..
Best of luck son.

 

[rhubroma]

This in from today's Gazzetta dello Sport:

...Il giorno prima la Vacansoliel aveva già escluso dall'organico lo spagnolo Maschquera: un accelerazione forse suggerita dal rischio "politico" di perdere la licenza World Tour.

and also...

(Riccò) Però ha già parlato sul suo profilo Facebook: "Leggere i quotidiani è come leggere i giornali di gossip, mi fare ridere cari giornalisti, ah, ah, ah!!!
La vendetta è un piatto che va servito freddo!!!"

I quote myself merely to translate:

..."The day before Vacansoliel had already kicked off the team the Spaniard Maschquera: rushing things that was perhaps suggested by the "political" risk of loosing the World Tour license".

This came at the end of the article:

"(Riccò, speaking about his situation) "however has already spoken on Facebook: 'To read the dailies is like reading the gossip newspapers. You make me laugh my dear journalists, ha, ha, ha!!! (Yet) a vendetta is a plate that is to be served cold!!!'"

Rather bold, don't you think? At least he remains true to himself right down to the bitter end.

 

[Barrus]

Vacansoleil also fired Flavio Mongiardo. The team states that this is due to the fact that Ricco was the only rider he worked with and with the termination of Ricco's contract the contract of Mongiardo had become redundant. But they also take into account that perhaps Mongiardo was involved with the doping of Ricco

 

[The_Mikester]

I guess this puts a damper on his Giro hopes (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/winter-training-nibali-basso-and-ricco-begin-2011-preparations), heh heh....


But seriously, I am glad that Ricco didn't die. Mainly so that he can contemplate the rest of his life as a non-racer... Cruel, I know...

 

[Maxiton]

I guess this puts a damper on his Giro hopes (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/winter-training-nibali-basso-and-ricco-begin-2011-preparations), heh heh....


But seriously, I am glad that Ricco didn't die. Mainly so that he can contemplate the rest of his life as a non-racer... Cruel, I know...

He might still get a ride. I hear the Chicken is still looking for talent. What a combo: the Cobra and the Chicken. All we need now is a Mongoose. Alberto?

 

[D-Queued]

I guess this puts a damper on his Giro hopes (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/winter-training-nibali-basso-and-ricco-begin-2011-preparations), heh heh....


But seriously, I am glad that Ricco didn't die. Mainly so that he can contemplate the rest of his life as a non-racer... Cruel, I know...

When someone has fallen this far, you start to hope for some redemption. At this point, Ricco's self-destructive path is looking fully Lohan-esque.

It is as though Ricco read the part of 'Breaking the Chain' where Voet says that Virenque would have swallowed his own urine if you told him it would provide a performance advantage. Administering your own body fluids? Great idea.

Ricco, will you see the light and become a Lyle Alzado? Or, is that shovel still in your hands?

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

When someone has fallen this far, you start to hope for some redemption. At this point, Ricco's self-destructive path is looking fully Lohan-esque.

It is as though Ricco read the part of 'Breaking the Chain' where Voet says that Virenque would have swallowed his own urine if you told him it would provide a performance advantage. Administering your own body fluids? Great idea.

Ricco, will you see the light and become a Lyle Alzado? Or, is that shovel still in your hands?

Dave.

I myself don't see Ricco seeing the light. He has probably been a 'professional' cyclist since he was a junior (16) and probably doping since then too, i bet his education stopped about then too, so he is gonna find it very very difficult to walk away from a sport that his friends and family are in deep at and will his family let him?

 

[Stingray34]

This came at the end of the article:

"(Riccò, speaking about his situation) "however has already spoken on Facebook: 'To read the dailies is like reading the gossip newspapers. You make me laugh my dear journalists, ha, ha, ha!!! (Yet) a vendetta is a plate that is to be served cold!!!'

How does he intend to get revenge on the media? Isn't he just shooting the messenger here? What's he going to do when he realises the sport itself has abandoned him?

Do I ask too many questions?

 

[flicker]

I myself don't see Ricco seeing the light. He has probably been a 'professional' cyclist since he was a junior (16) and probably doping since then too, i bet his education stopped about then too, so he is gonna find it very very difficult to walk away from a sport that his friends and family are in deep at and will his family let him?

Maybe Ricco could apply for a job at WADA, or perhaps coach Novitzky, they could really use his expertise.

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe Ricco could apply for a job at WADA, or perhaps coach Novitzky, they could really use his expertise.

you could have him over at sociopathic central and he could blog for you guys while you try to save the dying embers of uniballer

 

[flicker]

you could have him over at sociopathic central and he could blog for you guys while you try to save the dying embers of uniballer

My point is Mr. Bennoti is it takes a criminal to catch a criminal. When Novizky went through Balcos' dumpsters he was possibly committing a crime,(tresspassing?) I say chapaue, Novitzky, it might peeve the owner of Balco but what the heck, if it peeves Balcos' owner good.

Serial cheaters such as Mr. Ricco and Mr. Landis can be of benefit in stopping doping, because they know every trick in the book in how not to get caught.

If they sink my Lance, that is peripheral damage in the fight against doping.

I would think it more beneficial to the USADA and WADA to take Mr. Ricco and Landis under their wings, as advisers in the fight against doping.

Would that not scare off many offenders to see Mr. Ricco and Mr. Landis sitting next to Mr. Novitzkys' throne.

Or sitting on boards with the IOC, USADA etc.

 

[Maxiton]

How does he intend to get revenge on the media? Isn't he just shooting the messenger here? What's he going to do when he realises the sport itself has abandoned him?

Do I ask too many questions?

Sounds like he has realized and he's threatening to go full Landis.

 

[cotterpin]

Sounds like he has realized and he's threatening to go full Landis.

I would love to hear what this guy has to say. Definitely
has experience with the 'program'.

 

[flicker]

I myself don't see Ricco seeing the light. He has probably been a 'professional' cyclist since he was a junior (16) and probably doping since then too, i bet his education stopped about then too, so he is gonna find it very very difficult to walk away from a sport that his friends and family are in deep at and will his family let him?

Ricco simply has to go to the proper authorities, work with them to catch the cheaters. Very simple yes? Unless there are more dark secrets that Ricardo would like to protect.

 

[Benotti69]

Ricco simply has to go to the proper authorities, work with them to catch the cheaters. Very simple yes? Unless there are more dark secrets that Ricardo would like to protect.

yeah his wife's PEDs his brother in law, his uncles etc.....