Ricco

[JimmyFingers]

Isn't Ricco 30? About time to stop considering him a kid.

He made mistakes. There were plenty of people around him making the same mistakes, he just made them worse because of....well being a bit daft really.

I haven't read anything recently that suggests he has calmed down, he's just wired a little differently to everyone else.

 

[the sceptic]

Better for the sport.

I'm sorry, but Ricco is just in a class, almost, of his own. Why was he doing his own IVBlood? Because he is incorrigible. Even now, as a pariah, unemployable and a laughing stock, he is unrepentant. Openly, brazenly, unrepentant.

I'm an Irish catholic. I do forgiveness and absolution, and all that - but you need something approaching contrition. I understand the risk of crocodile tears, I understand the 'Dave Millar' tour of self-flagellation leaves a bad taste in the mouth, I do.

But, to paraphrase Chris rock -

Ricco just does not give a f***. He just does. Not. Give. a. F***. If you were hanging from a cliff, and all you needed was a F*** to save your life. He wouldn't give you one. He'd just say "No, sorry, didn't you hear? I don't give a f***"

Yes, you're right - junior racing in italy seems a cesspit to the casual observer. UK racing? Meh, don't know the sport well enough there at that level. But Italy? Not sure how you fight that culture when you make a martyr of Pantani.


now, more generally, second chances?

Look how much grief Hesjedal is getting today, rightly or wrongly. and then tell me that such anger is consistant with a way back for Ricco. It isn't. It's just 'picking your favourite dopers' - usually, it seems (not you personally, hog, generally) the ones for who English is a second language, for reasons that defy me. And I can't and won't do that - there has to come a point where you say no more chances - for me, it ought to be foul 1, but I can just about live with foul 2. I can live with one story of seeing the light.

How many 'incidents' has ricco had - all the way back to junior days?

He is, clearly incorrigible - more to the point, he's a danger to himself.

He's best away from cycling. Cycling is best away from him.

Martin. Dont be such a drama queen.

A doper is a doper. They all make the desicion to dope at some point.

Why is Ricco different than anyone else? Yes he got busted twice but so what?

Do you think the brits that got busted for doping did it exactly once, on the day they got caught?

Not all dopers can afford the luxury of a good doctor maybe? Does that make Ricco a worse person than someone that goes to Dr Ferrari?

Why is it only the garmin dopers that deserve a second chance?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Let's see, 2008 positives and scandals:

Off the top of my head there was

Ricco
Sella
Kohl
Schumacher
Leipheimer (confessed later)
Duenas
Piepoli
Gusev
Fofonov
Beltran
Rebellin
Priamo
Vila
Richeze
Carini
Bossoni
LA-MSS Raid
Oil for drugs

And that's before we start taking into account the circumstantial evidence and/or future positives on guys like Menchov, Evans, Schleck, Contador etc.


Come on Doc, when did you get that naive

No, you are mistaken. I have been following this whole story of doping in pro cycling for sometime. Apparently what has happened is that at one time everyone was "doing it" but then they all stopped and now are all racing "clean". The fact that they all stopped at a point in time which just happened to coincide with the SOL is purely coincidental.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Marty Vickers, well..wow.. you really don't like Ricco which is understandable and perfectly valid opinion.

 

[martinvickers]

I will let you clarify or amend this - but taking it at face value this is the wrong way at looking at the Ricco dilemma, IMO.

I am actually happy that the guy is considering getting on the bike and back in to shape - he appears a vulnerable sort so reading that he is in positive spirits and looking forward is good.

But - and this is the but, his aspirations on the bike should be ignored by the media (as well as the broader cycling community). The need to be in the spotlight appears to be his greatest flaw and we know from his history of what he will do to get that.
Highlighting his attempts to break records doesn't encourage him to cycle - it encourages him to dope.

By sport, I mean competitive elite sport, not sport as leisure activity - a world as cutthroat as pro sport is no place for a man struggling with his personal issues - whether some basic leisure cycling helps him as therapy is a different issue.

 

[martinvickers]

Martin. Dont be such a drama queen.

Ball not man.

A doper is a doper. They all make the desicion to dope at some point.

Why is Ricco different than anyone else? Yes he got busted twice but so what?

so what? He got a second chance. He knew the risk of a second offence. and he took it anyway.

Do you think the brits that got busted for doping did it exactly once, on the day they got caught?

not sure what Brits have to do with it - you'd be well advised to leave your own anti-anglo biases at home. The point is once caught and punished, however often you did it, it's a second chance - you either take it, or you don't. Ricco didn't.

Not all dopers can afford the luxury of a good doctor maybe? Does that make Ricco a worse person than someone that goes to Dr Ferrari?

Good doctors have got nothing to do with it. He got a second chance. He blew it. Ricco is a 'worse person', in that limited sence than someone who doesn't dope. Or someone who doped once but doesn't any more, however rare such creatures are.

Really, I'm a bit stunned that anyone can pretend to care about doping in cycling, and then defend ricco. It smacks of 'picking favourite dopers'. That's not a moral position, it's hypocritical b******.

Why is it only the garmin dopers that deserve a second chance?

Who said it was? a strawman. Personally I don't like second chances in this sport; they get abused. But hell, ok, give everyone a second chance.

Not a third.

 

[martinvickers]

Marty Vickers, well..wow.. you really don't like Ricco which is understandable and perfectly valid opinion.

Liking him is irrelevant. He comes across as an unrepentant doper, and a bit of a pr!ck, but it's only the former I care about. As a person, i don't really know him.

But i know enough to know he has no place in the pro sport. For the sports sake, and his own.

I really do not understand, in a forum full of people decrying doping and would-be dopers, often when they barely have proof if at all, suddenly jumping to the defence of a known, habitual and repeat offender who clearly couldn't give a sh!t about the sport.

it's VERY hard not to conclude there's national biases at work. And that would just stink.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Liking him is irrelevant. He comes across as an unrepentant doper, and a bit of a pr!ck, but it's only the former I care about. As a person, i don't really know him.

But i know enough to know he has no place in the pro sport. For the sports sake, and his own.

I really do not understand, in a forum full of people decrying doping and would-be dopers, often when they barely have proof if at all, suddenly jumping to the defence of a known, habitual and repeat offender who clearly couldn't give a sh!t about the sport.

it's VERY hard not to conclude there's national biases at work. And that would just stink.

Am i defending him? and "he comes across as bit of a ***' that sounds like whether liking him or not is relevant

 

[BroDeal]

Liking him is irrelevant. He comes across as an unrepentant doper, and a bit of a pr!ck, but it's only the former I care about. As a person, i don't really know him.

Who is worse for the sport?

1) A rider who gets caught but refuses to pretend he is sorry for doing what everyone else in the sport was doing.
2) A rider who gets caught and tells the public a BS sob story about he chose the wrong path.
3). A rider who dopes outrageously, does not get caught, and publicly expresses faux outrage about doping.

1) Ricco
2) Hesjedal
3) Froome

 

[martinvickers]

Am i defending him? and "he comes across as bit of a ***' that sounds like whether liking him or not is relevant

No it doesn't. That assumes that whether I 'like' a rider changes my view on how he should be treated re doping. It doesn't.

Vinkourov was a 'lovely guy' apparently. Still a cheat. Should be treated the same - one chance maximum.

 

[martinvickers]

Who is worse for the sport?

1) A rider who gets caught but refuses to pretend he is sorry for doing what everyone else in the sport was doing.
2) A rider who gets caught and tells the public a BS sob story about he chose the wrong path.
3). A rider who dopes outrageously, does not get caught, and publicly expresses faux outrage about doping.

1) Ricco
2) Hesjedal
3) Froome

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. That's just baiting for a fight.

 

[the sceptic]

Martin. Dont be upset.

Do you think everyone that gets busted for doping once stops when they come back? Maybe Ricco was just unlucky that he botched his transfusion.

How do you know Hesjedal isnt an urepentant doper too?

Just because JV says he is clean doesnt mean it is true. Hesjedal could have been doping for the vast majority of his career for all we know.

The difference is that he has a nice PR machinery behind him, whereas Ricco is on his own and doesnt give a **** what anyone think.

 

[Alex76]

At this level am afraid like all pro sport - It's all entertainment, and the doping has / does / will go with that...

So, on the basis... I 'like' Ricco, like I 'like' Vino... And for that I welcome him back - under guidelines, care etc...

Someone posted earlier a proposed 'Red Bull' style Ventoux hill climb race - I have never understood why this has not been before - take ADH, put a decent cash purse up for grabs, clear conditions on all entrants to be tested, and add some 'Vegas style' razzmatazz around it.

Again, my beliefs may not be popular with some of the traditionalists amongst you... But there's a reason why not all football games kick off at 3pm on Saturday now.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. That's just baiting for a fight.

Once again Vickers' ridiculous hypocrisy is exposed.

people like this are part of the problem. They are the ones that support the scapegoating of riders to protect the dirty reality of the sport. Without them the sport would have to deal with the problem instead of treating it as an exercise in fooling the rubes.

 

[the sceptic]

Once again Vickers' ridiculous hypocrisy is exposed.

people like this are part of the problem. They are the ones that support the scapegoating of riders to protect the dirty reality of the sport. Without them the sport would have to deal with the problem instead of treating it as an exercise in fooling the rubes.

If only Ricco was riding 10 years ago and spoke english.

 

[martinvickers]

Martin. Dont be upset.

I'm not. I've know Idea where you got that from.

Do you think everyone that gets busted for doping once stops when they come back?

i doubt it very much. what's your point?

Maybe Ricco was just unlucky that he botched his transfusion.

i don't care WHY he got caught. I care that he doped, and it's undeniable.

How do you know Hesjedal isnt an urepentant doper too?

I don't. but I don't know that he is either. And neither do you. You work with the evidence available. you don't make it up to fit your preconceived likes and dislikes (see, Brodeal, above)

Just because JV says he is clean doesnt mean it is true. Hesjedal could have been doping for the vast majority of his career for all we know.

Absolutely. and if he is, I hope to God he's caught again and ejected forever forthwith.

But we can't just ASSUME that's the case. That's not remotely close to justice.

The difference is that he has a nice PR machinery behind him, whereas Ricco is on his own and doesnt give a **** what anyone think.

no the difference is one may or may not not have re-offended, and one most certainly did. It's pretty simple.

 

[thehog]

Who is worse for the sport?

1) A rider who gets caught but refuses to pretend he is sorry for doing what everyone else in the sport was doing.
2) A rider who gets caught and tells the public a BS sob story about he chose the wrong path.
3). A rider who dopes outrageously, does not get caught, and publicly expresses faux outrage about doping.

1) Ricco
2) Hesjedal
3) Froome

Good example.

If the AFLD wasn't testing at the 2008 Tour then Ricco would be Froomeing it up as we speak.

He was just unlucky. The UCI wouldn't have cared.

They didn't even want to test 2008 Giro for CERA.

 

[coinneach]

I feel like this thread has descended into a ridiculous parallel universe.

Ricco has no place in the sport at all

Catching and sanctioning dopers is something ALL clinic posters should be in favour of.

I cannot for the life of me see how defending Ricco and offering him yet another chance would be anything other than madness

For the record, I think Contador doped, but is scared to do so again; like most people who get caught doing something wrong.
Ricco is a danger to himself & the sport.
Pantani would have had a better chance (of a longer life) if he'd got out sooner: staying in, hoping to get the buzz again, not a good idea

 

[martinvickers]

Once again Vickers' ridiculous hypocrisy is exposed.

people like this are part of the problem. They are the ones that support the scapegoating of riders to protect the dirty reality of the sport. Without them the sport would have to deal with the problem instead of treating it as an exercise in fooling the rubes.

1. Cut out the personal attacks.

2. Point out the hypocrisy - I treat proven allegations of doping, sorry, doping AFTER a ban already, differently from your own biased and basically unevidenced hunches? That's hypocrisy?

no, hypocrisy is protecting a repeat and incorrigible offender, and then slating another bunch of riders because you don't like their nationality or percieved race. That's hypocrisy.

 

[martinvickers]

If only Ricco was riding 10 years ago and spoke english.

What's the language got to do with it? Seriously, let's actually look at this. What actual point are you trying to make?

Is it a grammar thing? all those extra words? Some weird dipthong-Doping connection?

Explain it to me, le do thoil.

 

[the sceptic]

Getting busted twice doesnt mean you are doping more than riders that got busted once or never got busted.

At the end of the day, everyone dopes for the same reason.

If anything Hesjedal is a worse doper than Ricco in my opinion. He might have doped for a decade without getting caught.

 

[Parrulo]

I love how everyone but saint Millar and the rest of the Garmin gang are a bunch of unrepentant dopers. . . .

Let's cut the crap, no one regrets doping, they regret getting caught.

 

[Benotti69]

I love how everyone but saint Millar and the rest of the Garmin gang are a bunch of unrepentant dopers. . . .

Let's cut the crap, no one regrets doping, they regret getting caught.

Hasn't JV done well to portray his bunch of cheats as good guys while all the others are the bad guys.

Ricco, Hesjedal, Millar, VdV, DZ, Armstrong, Landis, di Luca etc all sides of the same coin.

 

[martinvickers]

Getting busted twice doesnt mean you are doping more than riders that got busted once or never got busted.

No, it doesn't. But getting busted twice means you got busted twice. You got a 'second chance'. you blew it. end of.

If anything Hesjedal is a worse doper than Ricco in my opinion. He might have doped for a decade without getting caught.

1. Your opinion isn't a basis for a system of justice, or fairness.
2. He might. and he might not. and you'll have to get your head around the might not bit.

 

[martinvickers]

I love how everyone but saint Millar and the rest of the Garmin gang are a bunch of unrepentant dopers. . . .

Let's cut the crap, no one regrets doping, they regret getting caught.

Whose talking about everyone? We're talking ricco. Caught. Twice. And that's being generous on the HC.

For all I know Valverde, Contador etc are very repentant. I doubt it, but i don't know. Neither do you. the point is, if you give everyone a second chance, you have to give them it.

But you don't have to give a third.

And the hate for Hesjedal sits very, very poorly in this forum, frankly, with the affection for Ricco.