Richie Porte Discussion Thread.

[May0maniac]

Dennis can offer some help on a mountain stage, he's no a guy for the high mountains and multiple hard stages, but he could be useful and he can defend himself well on a single climb if he's in shape. Having someone like him in the breakaway in a hard mountain stage to help Richie later on could be pretty useful.
De Marchi will be a good domestique for Porte, but I don't know how useful he'll be on the proper mountain stages.

 

[Katabatic]

There's absolutely no excuse for BMC to not bring all their best riders to the tour when they have arguably the top favorite to win it. The tour is by far the largest event for sponsors in all of cycling, and Porte is in the form of his life and Froome looks uncharacteristically vulnerable.

If they mess this up, BMC deserves to never contend for GC again.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Dennis can offer some help on a mountain stage, he's no a guy for the high mountains and multiple hard stages, but he could be useful and he can defend himself well on a single climb if he's in shape. Having someone like him in the breakaway in a hard mountain stage to help Richie later on could be pretty useful.
De Marchi will be a good domestique for Porte, but I don't know how useful he'll be on the proper mountain stages.

I don't see big difference between bringing Dennis or Kung, as a domestique Kung is maybe even more valuable. Only difference is that Dennis has a bigger chance to win stage 1.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

I don't understand why they won't take Dennis after his failed giro. Would be the favourite for yellow in Dusseldorf and can be a great domestique for LRP. But maybe a possible top 10 in Vuelta is more important?

Already has a yellow jersey and apparently Küng will ride the Tour instead of him, he wanted to be there from the start, while Dennis wanted to ride Giro-Vuelta to test himself in a gt.
The climbing support isn't exactly great, no Samu, no TJVG, no Hermans and no Rohan Dennis. Caruso is strong, but I don't know about Roche and his form.
Port will have a strong team around him on the flat stages and mostly follow wheels in the mountains, but if he ends up being the race leader at one point and long range attacks start he could be in trouble.

I have got to say that BMC are really testing my patience here

Dennis wants to do the Tour ...he has said so
Sanchez also wants to do the Tour as does Hermans
To leave these riders at home is a major mistake

Porte cannot rely on 2 Mtn doms ...well one really if Roche is doing the road captain which tends to be riding everywhere on flat and rolling

Absolute madness

Is it BMC not understanding what is required ?
As for saving for the Vuelta ...that is nonsense ...Dennis or TJ will not do a top GC at the Vuelta and Sanchez as shown previously only does well at the Vuelta after riding the Tour

I think BMC must be lead by their riders and not the other way round ...
If Porte takes the jersey everyone will attack him and even if both Roche and Caruso are flying they are no competition for SKY or Astana or Movistar team every day

Were BMC not watching the Dauphine ??

I really don't think Dennis can offer Porte much in the mountains and they are already pretty strong on the flat and intermediate stages and Dennis is no certainty to finish the Tour. As for Sanchez he would be more valuable even though he is a veteran but it seems that BMC will let him and Hermans ride for GC in the Vuelta as it's Sanchez's last grand tour and he was in the top five last year until he crashed out. Roche will also probably ride for GC in the Vuelta so maybe they will let the race sort out the pecking order. TJVG did the Giro and the legs won't be there even if his last week in the Giro was okay. BMC simply don't have the riders to give Porte really good support in the mountains like Movistar or Sky. Be interesting to see if BMC try and change that in the off season especially if Porte goes well in the Tour. If last year is any indication it will be Porte and Caruso on the last climb and no one else from BMC at least when the attacks start happening.

 

[Ikbengodniet]

What's gonna be the tour team anyway??

Something like this:

Porte
Caruso
Roche
GVA
Kung
De Marchi
Moinard
Bookwalter
Schar


I would trade 2 of Schar/Moinard/De Marchi anyday for Samu and Dennis.

 

[Robert5091]

If LRP is to be a contender for the GC he must have a strong climbing team. Otherwise like the Dauphine he'll be attacked and alone from the first climb. LRP whined after the Dauphine, but it'll be a lot worse at TdF.

 

[The_Beach]

Re:

What's gonna be the tour team anyway??

Something like this:

Porte
Caruso
Roche
GVA
Kung
De Marchi
Moinard
Bookwalter
Schar


I would trade 2 of Schar/Moinard/De Marchi anyday for Samu and Dennis.

Pretty confident that Danilo Wyss will be in the team, he has raced all the same races as Richie this year and was on some sort of training camp with Caruso, Roche and Porte in May.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

What's gonna be the tour team anyway??

Something like this:

Porte
Caruso
Roche
GVA
Kung
De Marchi
Moinard
Bookwalter
Schar


I would trade 2 of Schar/Moinard/De Marchi anyday for Samu and Dennis.

I would never trade De Marchi for Dennis, as a domestique...

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

What's gonna be the tour team anyway??

Something like this:

Porte
Caruso
Roche
GVA
Kung
De Marchi
Moinard
Bookwalter
Schar


I would trade 2 of Schar/Moinard/De Marchi anyday for Samu and Dennis.

This team does not look weak for the mountains IMHO.

Who is Schar??

Should put Dennis or Samu depends and their needs. I would be more inclined with Samu.

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

What's gonna be the tour team anyway??

Something like this:

Porte
Caruso
Roche
GVA
Kung
De Marchi
Moinard
Bookwalter
Schar


I would trade 2 of Schar/Moinard/De Marchi anyday for Samu and Dennis.

This team does not look weak for the mountains IMHO.

Who is Schar??

Should put Dennis or Samu depends and their needs. I would be more inclined with Samu.

Schär is a Swiss strongman, tall guy and strong when it comes to crosswinds, he was always good in the Tour of Quatar. Can ride tempo on under 5% steep climbs for some time and is probably a bit underrated as a climber, but mostly a guy for flat and windy stages.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

What's gonna be the tour team anyway??

Something like this:

Porte
Caruso
Roche
GVA
Kung
De Marchi
Moinard
Bookwalter
Schar


I would trade 2 of Schar/Moinard/De Marchi anyday for Samu and Dennis.

This team does not look weak for the mountains IMHO.

Who is Schar??

Should put Dennis or Samu depends and their needs. I would be more inclined with Samu.

Schär is a Swiss strongman, tall guy and strong when it comes to crosswinds, he was always good in the Tour of Quatar. Can ride tempo on under 5% steep climbs for some time and is probably a bit underrated as a climber, but mostly a guy for flat and windy stages.

Schar is one of the best doms in the peloton.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

What's gonna be the tour team anyway??

Something like this:

Porte
Caruso
Roche
GVA
Kung
De Marchi
Moinard
Bookwalter
Schar


I would trade 2 of Schar/Moinard/De Marchi anyday for Samu and Dennis.

I think that team will be pretty close to the actual one. Schar has to stay, a very good domestique, the only question mark might be Moinard. Dennis has already said he is first reserve and it seems that Sanchez will be at the Vuelta. Bookwalter has to be on the team. Moinard is a good climber but not top tier. But maybe Moinard is the best they have as it's not a strong team for the mountains and never has been. Even Evans only had Santaromita, Morabito and Moinard. Morabito was usually the most consistent of them.

 

[HelloDolly]

I would definitely bring Schar ..great dom in the cross winds etc
I think Oss is going too and GVA...these 3 very strong

and witth Kung and Roche I think Porte is fine on the flat /rolling stages

Its the MTns and being in the yellow jersey is the problem....it coudl be fine if BMC do not take the jersey till the 2nd last day but that will not happen. So Caruso is good

Now that leaves 2 places ...Wyss and De Marchi ? I am sorry but no .....both were absent at the Dauphine ...not great climbers ...
Certainly cannot stack up against Landa, Poels, Henao & Nieve

Sanchez and Herman's are so much better climbers .
(Dennis and TJ would be better too but not sure they will do Dom roles well)

 

[HelloDolly]

So my team would be

Porte
Roche
Caruso
GVA
Oss
Schar
Kung
Sanchez
Hermans

And BMC should let TJ go next year and use his very big salary to get some mountain doms...but Porte may not ever get a better chance than he has now to win a Tour

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

There's a lot riding on "Vuelta top 5" Roche rather than "useful generalist" Roche showing up in the mountains. If Roche and Caruso turn up at their best as climbers they can give very good support. If they turn up off that, Richie is going to get very lonely.

 

[May0maniac]

Forgot about Bookwalter, he'd be a solid domestique in the mountains, not great, but still a solid workhorse.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

There's a lot riding on "Vuelta top 5" Roche rather than "useful generalist" Roche showing up in the mountains. If Roche and Caruso turn up at their best as climbers they can give very good support. If they turn up off that, Richie is going to get very lonely.

2 things on this

if Roche Vuelta top 5 turns up then still alot to ask Roche with Caruso to be only mountain Doms defending yellow (not a problem if they don't have yellow) when SKY will be rotating and resting Landa, Poels, Thomas, Henao & Nieve ....not to mention Kwait...every rider including Doms have bad days ..very slim margins of error for Porte

Seemingly Roche was flying at the camp with Porte & Caruso but still had no legs at the Dauphine...though was hit by a carr and that knocked him back....All round useful Roche has a habit of taking on too much and then not being there at the end ....remember the SKY TTT in 2015 ...did lots of pulls at the beginning but looked like the villain at the end

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

A wee bit melodramatic ?? Dennis is a superlative TTer, arguably in the top 2-3 in the world currently but despite his declarations of future GC aspirations; to date he really has never shown any real capacity to handle the really high stuff esp on a day to day basis. He's actually only ever finished 2 of the 6 GTs he's started so its hard to sell a conclusive argument that he'll be Richie's main man in the mountains.

He most certainly WOULD be of great value to Porte on the flat although Dennis himself is no great shakes with echelons. He COULD be of legitimate use in the hills (where Dennis HAS proven himself competent in other WT races) but there's just very little evidence to date that Dennis would necessarily prove a quality mountain domestique on a day to day basis

Agree with your summary - The base of the TDF squad rode the TDU - Porte has a big say in the selection of the TDF squad and IMO only needs two mountain domestics - Better to have 2 reliable mountain domestics, then have 4 unreliable mountain domestics - Porte needs more help on the flat which the team will provide - Much ado about nothing - Ultimately when you are in the high mountains its man against man.

 

[yaco]

Re:

But in another sense look at someone like Geraint Thomas who tried to peak for the Giro,crashed out and will ride the TDF (admittedly was always going to ride the TDF anyways but still). I know Dennis is not at G's level climbing wise but he would still be invaluable for Porte in chasing down breakaways or bridging gaps in the peleton. Both those riders abandoned their main goals, but both also missed out on the toil of 3 weeks of hard riding, which should leave them theoretically in better shape to ride the TDF.

The one thing BMC have in abundance is strong rouleurs/flat riders for the TDF.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

A wee bit melodramatic ?? Dennis is a superlative TTer, arguably in the top 2-3 in the world currently but despite his declarations of future GC aspirations; to date he really has never shown any real capacity to handle the really high stuff esp on a day to day basis. He's actually only ever finished 2 of the 6 GTs he's started so its hard to sell a conclusive argument that he'll be Richie's main man in the mountains.

He most certainly WOULD be of great value to Porte on the flat although Dennis himself is no great shakes with echelons. He COULD be of legitimate use in the hills (where Dennis HAS proven himself competent in other WT races) but there's just very little evidence to date that Dennis would necessarily prove a quality mountain domestique on a day to day basis

Agree with your summary - The base of the TDF squad rode the TDU - Porte has a big say in the selection of the TDF squad and IMO only needs two mountain domestics - Better to have 2 reliable mountain domestics, then have 4 unreliable mountain domestics - Porte needs more help on the flat which the team will provide - Much ado about nothing - Ultimately when you are in the high mountains its man against man.

Exactly. Should Movistar or Sky send riders up the road in the mountains Porte can ignore them. He only need mark Froome or Quintana's wheel. If Valverde thinks he can steal the TdF from his teammate then I think that is a risk Porte should take.
But I still think Froome is going to be at a higher level next month and questions remain if Porte can hold let alone improve on the great form he has shown so far this season together with his now proven ability to last three weeks as he managed well in 2016.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

A wee bit melodramatic ?? Dennis is a superlative TTer, arguably in the top 2-3 in the world currently but despite his declarations of future GC aspirations; to date he really has never shown any real capacity to handle the really high stuff esp on a day to day basis. He's actually only ever finished 2 of the 6 GTs he's started so its hard to sell a conclusive argument that he'll be Richie's main man in the mountains.

He most certainly WOULD be of great value to Porte on the flat although Dennis himself is no great shakes with echelons. He COULD be of legitimate use in the hills (where Dennis HAS proven himself competent in other WT races) but there's just very little evidence to date that Dennis would necessarily prove a quality mountain domestique on a day to day basis

Agree with your summary - The base of the TDF squad rode the TDU - Porte has a big say in the selection of the TDF squad and IMO only needs two mountain domestics - Better to have 2 reliable mountain domestics, then have 4 unreliable mountain domestics - Porte needs more help on the flat which the team will provide - Much ado about nothing - Ultimately when you are in the high mountains its man against man.

It's not man against man if a rider in yellow is isolated on a multi mountain stage. In those circumstances it's one man against the world. In the Tour as opposed to the Dauphine conservative riding by some of those in minor places might provide some assistance, but that's not something someone going to the Tour to win it should be banking on.

 

[deValtos]

90% mano vs mano but then there's always that one stage where you get will lose the race without a team ... as evidenced incredibly clearly by Porte losing the Dauphine.

Also a team can prevent what happened to Dumo/Nibali/Quitana in the Giro where the 4-6th riders like Pinot/Zak/Pozzo were gaining random minutes in the last week despite not being necessarily stronger. Ofc in the end it did work out for them but it's always a little risky and doesn't happen when Poels is steamrolling out 400watts at the front of the group. I could easily see someone like Contador being 2:00 down and getting away because Porte is making Froome/Quintana for example. Just extra risks a team can prevent.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

A wee bit melodramatic ?? Dennis is a superlative TTer, arguably in the top 2-3 in the world currently but despite his declarations of future GC aspirations; to date he really has never shown any real capacity to handle the really high stuff esp on a day to day basis. He's actually only ever finished 2 of the 6 GTs he's started so its hard to sell a conclusive argument that he'll be Richie's main man in the mountains.

He most certainly WOULD be of great value to Porte on the flat although Dennis himself is no great shakes with echelons. He COULD be of legitimate use in the hills (where Dennis HAS proven himself competent in other WT races) but there's just very little evidence to date that Dennis would necessarily prove a quality mountain domestique on a day to day basis

Agree with your summary - The base of the TDF squad rode the TDU - Porte has a big say in the selection of the TDF squad and IMO only needs two mountain domestics - Better to have 2 reliable mountain domestics, then have 4 unreliable mountain domestics - Porte needs more help on the flat which the team will provide - Much ado about nothing - Ultimately when you are in the high mountains its man against man.

It's not man against man if a rider in yellow is isolated on a multi mountain stage. In those circumstances it's one man against the world. In the Tour as opposed to the Dauphine conservative riding by some of those in minor places might provide some assistance, but that's not something someone going to the Tour to win it should be banking on.

+1

As said its if in yellow the issue becomes critical as seen at the Dauphine
Not sure if BMC have a plan to try and take yellow ...or if one can plan this ?

Froome usually takes in after the first rest day but he has a brilliant team to defend it

I think the issue will be crucial at stage 12 & stage 13 ...if Porte is stronger than the others he will take the jersey here and it is a long long way to Paris with 2 MTN Doms

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

Whoever is in charge of the decision to (potentially) not take Dennis is, in my opinion, a moron.

A wee bit melodramatic ?? Dennis is a superlative TTer, arguably in the top 2-3 in the world currently but despite his declarations of future GC aspirations; to date he really has never shown any real capacity to handle the really high stuff esp on a day to day basis. He's actually only ever finished 2 of the 6 GTs he's started so its hard to sell a conclusive argument that he'll be Richie's main man in the mountains.

He most certainly WOULD be of great value to Porte on the flat although Dennis himself is no great shakes with echelons. He COULD be of legitimate use in the hills (where Dennis HAS proven himself competent in other WT races) but there's just very little evidence to date that Dennis would necessarily prove a quality mountain domestique on a day to day basis

Agree with your summary - The base of the TDF squad rode the TDU - Porte has a big say in the selection of the TDF squad and IMO only needs two mountain domestics - Better to have 2 reliable mountain domestics, then have 4 unreliable mountain domestics - Porte needs more help on the flat which the team will provide - Much ado about nothing - Ultimately when you are in the high mountains its man against man.

It's not man against man if a rider in yellow is isolated on a multi mountain stage. In those circumstances it's one man against the world. In the Tour as opposed to the Dauphine conservative riding by some of those in minor places might provide some assistance, but that's not something someone going to the Tour to win it should be banking on.

+1

As said its if in yellow the issue becomes critical as seen at the Dauphine
Not sure if BMC have a plan to try and take yellow ...or if one can plan this ?

Froome usually takes in after the first rest day but he has a brilliant team to defend it

I think the issue will be crucial at stage 12 & stage 13 ...if Porte is stronger than the others he will take the jersey here and it is a long long way to Paris with 2 MTN Doms

Porte still only needs to worry about Froome and Quintana's wheels. He can risk giving Valverde, Contador or Pinot leeway (AC may be the biggest threat). He can forget about super doms at Sky and Movistar - does Quintana want to let Valverde win the Tour? I think Porte and BMC learned some valuable lessons in the final stage of the Dauphine. If he is stronger than the others strong teams won't help if Froome or Quintana if Porte plays his cards right.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Porte still only needs to worry about Froome and Quintana's wheels. He can risk giving Valverde, Contador or Pinot leeway (AC may be the biggest threat). He can forget about super doms at Sky and Movistar - does Quintana want to let Valverde win the Tour? I think Porte and BMC learned some valuable lessons in the final stage of the Dauphine. If he is stronger than the others strong teams won't help if Froome or Quintana if Porte plays his cards right.

If Porte, Froome, Quintana put everyone else miles out of the running early in the race and Sky's domestique rotation leaves them with no second rider close then the above is a likely enough scenario. But that's a huge and risky starting assumption. Porte would be a fool to take it for granted that he will put enough time into all of Contador, Valverde, Bardet etc that he can ignore them before he has actually put a lot of time into them. As with the idea that he can find allies among conservative-minded also rans, it's something that might happen but it isn't a development a contender for the win should be banking on.

On the issue of what Quintana wants, if Valverde looks like he has the legs to contest the win it won't matter in the slightest what Quintana wants.