Richie Porte Discussion Thread.

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Literally the only good thing for Porte in this Tour is the TTT. Top 5 max.

With Froome, Quintana and likely Dumoulin/Nibali all riding the Tour, Porte should go for the Giro. Much better route for him if rumours prove true.

That will never happen as he is their number one GT rider and BMC are always about the Tour. The real interest will be in whether TJVG makes the Tour team as he will be handy in the TTT. Dennis will have to do the Tour.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

Literally the only good thing for Porte in this Tour is the TTT. Top 5 max.

With Froome, Quintana and likely Dumoulin/Nibali all riding the Tour, Porte should go for the Giro. Much better route for him if rumours prove true.

That will never happen as he is their number one GT rider and BMC are always about the Tour. The real interest will be in whether TJVG makes the Tour team as he will be handy in the TTT. Dennis will have to do the Tour.

Not really a question at this point. Dennis was always a go, considering the TTT, and Piva basically just confirmed that Van Garderen would also go.

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/2017/10/18/105986/piva-tour-un-cocktail-non-convince-bmc-giro-d-talia-tuttobiciweb

 

[HelloDolly]

IMO not as good as 2017 for Porte , especially the cobbles and not so many MTFs and also possibly cross winds and teh downhills

If he can only stay on his bike or have no mishaps ...he can do a good result ...but its getting like he&BMC try so hard to control for everything that something alwasy goes wrong ...

 

[HelloDolly]

Also think TJ should ride the Giro and the Tour ...he will be more inclined to support Porte if he has had his own chance and he can ride 2 GTs....though not sure how much help he will be for Richie ...but riding the Giro will not make a difference imo


Caruso on the otherhand will need to top at Tour so must be kept for that as not great in second GT

But agree with PIva ...alot of the top climbers will not survive to the mountains
BMC could come up short again if all eggs in one basket

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Literally the only good thing for Porte in this Tour is the TTT. Top 5 max.

With Froome, Quintana and likely Dumoulin/Nibali all riding the Tour, Porte should go for the Giro. Much better route for him if rumours prove true.

That will never happen as he is their number one GT rider and BMC are always about the Tour. The real interest will be in whether TJVG makes the Tour team as he will be handy in the TTT. Dennis will have to do the Tour.

Not really a question at this point. Dennis was always a go, considering the TTT, and Piva basically just confirmed that Van Garderen would also go.

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/2017/10/18/105986/piva-tour-un-cocktail-non-convince-bmc-giro-d-talia-tuttobiciweb

i'm in two minds about TJVG in the Tour. The first nine days would tempt me not to select him seeing as though he will offer minimal help on the climbs. With only 8 riders in the team now and Dennis already on the team I'm not so sure, especially if he does the Giro first. Dennis was going to be a domestique anyway but if TJVG is not showing form before the Tour I wouldn't take him and even if he is it's still a gamble. Better an experienced domestique who can do a decent TT. I think he is better riding the Giro again and stage hunting if his GC ambitions take a hit and he loses too much time early just like last year. There is less pressure in the Giro which is always a good thing for TJVG.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Literally the only good thing for Porte in this Tour is the TTT. Top 5 max.

With Froome, Quintana and likely Dumoulin/Nibali all riding the Tour, Porte should go for the Giro. Much better route for him if rumours prove true.

That will never happen as he is their number one GT rider and BMC are always about the Tour. The real interest will be in whether TJVG makes the Tour team as he will be handy in the TTT. Dennis will have to do the Tour.

Not really a question at this point. Dennis was always a go, considering the TTT, and Piva basically just confirmed that Van Garderen would also go.

http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/2017/10/18/105986/piva-tour-un-cocktail-non-convince-bmc-giro-d-talia-tuttobiciweb

i'm in two minds about TJVG in the Tour. The first nine days would tempt me not to select him seeing as though he will offer minimal help on the climbs. With only 8 riders in the team now and Dennis already on the team I'm not so sure, especially if he does the Giro first. Dennis was going to be a domestique anyway but if TJVG is not showing form before the Tour I wouldn't take him and even if he is it's still a gamble. Better an experienced domestique who can do a decent TT. I think he is better riding the Giro again and stage hunting if his GC ambitions take a hit and he loses too much time early just like last year. There is less pressure in the Giro which is always a good thing for TJVG.

Richie needs help on the climbs ...Caruso and TJ are the only 2 who can stay on the long climbs ...and what if Caruso is off form or crashes and Richie has the yellow jersey...Nicolas Roche is good on the shorter climbs and can hang on the longer climbs if he has any form ...but that is not certain on his first GT plus he alwasy has one bad day and luck will have it will be on the day Porte might need him but he can do good MTN dom role some days so I would bring TJ and hopefully they can between them share the load ...and keep Caruso for the longest climbs and the last week ....

But Riche will need strong support in the first week and that will have to be Dennis, Roche, de Marchi plus I presume GVA wil be there as he is BMC star and will want to win the cobbles stage and get yellow..so BMC will again be split

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

[quote="
Richie needs help on the climbs ...Caruso and TJ are the only 2 who can stay on the long climbs ...and what if Caruso is off form or crashes and Richie has the yellow jersey...Nicolas Roche is good on the shorter climbs and can hang on the longer climbs if he has any form ...but that is not certain on his first GT plus he alwasy has one bad day and luck will have it will be on the day Porte might need him but he can do good MTN dom role some days so I would bring TJ and hopefully they can between them share the load ...and keep Caruso for the longest climbs and the last week ....

But Riche will need strong support in the first week and that will have to be Dennis, Roche, de Marchi plus I presume GVA wil be there as he is BMC star and will want to win the cobbles stage and get yellow..so BMC will again be split

Yeah GVA's inclusion raises issues as well. There was a good reason why Gilbert wasn't on the Tour team for Evans and you could argue the same for GVA. The problem with TJVG is that on the climbs generally he doesn't offer enough but BMC typically are pretty light on for mountain climbers. Not sure if BMC are going to address that at all in the off season. Most riders are already contracted for next season. Roche isn't the answer not for the high mountains. The team is usually a climber short compared to others maybe two but the reduced team size to 8 will now make plenty of teams think about the issues it involves even a team like Sky who has now lost Nieve and Landa and especially with the first tricky nine days and a fairly long TTT which also will push BMC towards selecting TJVG. It's what happens outside the TTT that worries me with TJVG.

 

[glassmoon]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Richie needs help on the climbs ...Caruso and TJ are the only 2 who can stay on the long climbs ...and what if Caruso is off form or crashes and Richie has the yellow jersey...Nicolas Roche is good on the shorter climbs and can hang on the longer climbs if he has any form ...but that is not certain on his first GT plus he alwasy has one bad day and luck will have it will be on the day Porte might need him but he can do good MTN dom role some days so I would bring TJ and hopefully they can between them share the load ...and keep Caruso for the longest climbs and the last week ....

But Riche will need strong support in the first week and that will have to be Dennis, Roche, de Marchi plus I presume GVA wil be there as he is BMC star and will want to win the cobbles stage and get yellow..so BMC will again be split

Nah... he doesn't really (need help on climbs). He seems pretty comfortable sticking to his rivals wheels, "racing" for the podium even when/if he's clearly stronger than they are at that time.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

[quote="
Richie needs help on the climbs ...Caruso and TJ are the only 2 who can stay on the long climbs ...and what if Caruso is off form or crashes and Richie has the yellow jersey...Nicolas Roche is good on the shorter climbs and can hang on the longer climbs if he has any form ...but that is not certain on his first GT plus he alwasy has one bad day and luck will have it will be on the day Porte might need him but he can do good MTN dom role some days so I would bring TJ and hopefully they can between them share the load ...and keep Caruso for the longest climbs and the last week ....

But Riche will need strong support in the first week and that will have to be Dennis, Roche, de Marchi plus I presume GVA wil be there as he is BMC star and will want to win the cobbles stage and get yellow..so BMC will again be split

Yeah GVA's inclusion raises issues as well. There was a good reason why Gilbert wasn't on the Tour team for Evans and you could argue the same for GVA. The problem with TJVG is that on the climbs generally he doesn't offer enough but BMC typically are pretty light on for mountain climbers. Not sure if BMC are going to address that at all in the off season. Most riders are already contracted for next season. Roche isn't the answer not for the high mountains. The team is usually a climber short compared to others maybe two but the reduced team size to 8 will now make plenty of teams think about the issues it involves even a team like Sky who has now lost Nieve and Landa and especially with the first tricky nine days and a fairly long TTT which also will push BMC towards selecting TJVG. It's what happens outside the TTT that worries me with TJVG.

Actually Roche if he has some form is a better TTer than TG at present...see the Worlds this year ....TJ lost it for BMC while Roche has higher in IT

But TJ has to be persuaded or otherwise to show up for Porte in the mountains as he can do even if only for some of the days he can be the 'saviour'....

As for high mountain doms...there arent many out there even if you have a cheque book...most are leaders ...SKY wont have it all their own way esp without Nieve and Landa...
Of course they have Kwaito, Moscon, Thomas Henao & Poels ...but not sure these can be guaranteed in high mountain except Poels and then not every day

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

[quote="
Richie needs help on the climbs ...Caruso and TJ are the only 2 who can stay on the long climbs ...and what if Caruso is off form or crashes and Richie has the yellow jersey...Nicolas Roche is good on the shorter climbs and can hang on the longer climbs if he has any form ...but that is not certain on his first GT plus he alwasy has one bad day and luck will have it will be on the day Porte might need him but he can do good MTN dom role some days so I would bring TJ and hopefully they can between them share the load ...and keep Caruso for the longest climbs and the last week ....

But Riche will need strong support in the first week and that will have to be Dennis, Roche, de Marchi plus I presume GVA wil be there as he is BMC star and will want to win the cobbles stage and get yellow..so BMC will again be split

Yeah GVA's inclusion raises issues as well. There was a good reason why Gilbert wasn't on the Tour team for Evans and you could argue the same for GVA. The problem with TJVG is that on the climbs generally he doesn't offer enough but BMC typically are pretty light on for mountain climbers. Not sure if BMC are going to address that at all in the off season. Most riders are already contracted for next season. Roche isn't the answer not for the high mountains. The team is usually a climber short compared to others maybe two but the reduced team size to 8 will now make plenty of teams think about the issues it involves even a team like Sky who has now lost Nieve and Landa and especially with the first tricky nine days and a fairly long TTT which also will push BMC towards selecting TJVG. It's what happens outside the TTT that worries me with TJVG.

Actually Roche if he has some form is a better TTer than TG at present...see the Worlds this year ....TJ lost it for BMC while Roche has higher in IT

But TJ has to be persuaded or otherwise to show up for Porte in the mountains as he can do even if only for some of the days he can be the 'saviour'....

As for high mountain doms...there arent many out there even if you have a cheque book...most are leaders ...SKY wont have it all their own way esp without Nieve and Landa...
Of course they have Kwaito, Moscon, Thomas Henao & Poels ...but not sure these can be guaranteed in high mountain except Poels and then not every day

Yes Roche will be in the team as the road captain and he is pretty versatile, TJVG and GVA will also be selected and GVA should be a good helper on the cobbles and the crosswind stages. As you said, the best mountain domestiques get snapped up quickly and they are not cheap. I have no problem with TJVG as long as he performs when it counts. BMC have lost some of their experienced domestiques to retirement and to other teams like Oss and Quinziato and a few others. Moinard is not the climber he was. At least they should have a good TTT team. Porte, Dennis and TJVG with Roche will be the main engine and that's a pretty strong group.

 

[HelloDolly]

Moinard is no longer at BMC

 

[yaco]

The fact is for a big budget team BMC has done poorly in bringing in climbing domestiques to support their GC riders - Reckon they have no idea.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

The fact is for a big budget team BMC has done poorly in bringing in climbing domestiques to support their GC riders - Reckon they have no idea.

Em I dont 100% agree with this...lots of team are having trouble in this area
Bahrain cant get doms for Nibali and Contador was never blessed with great MTN doms
UAE will have Aru & Martin next year but not the level of top MTN doms needed to win the Tour
BMC are better than these...even Movistar are Dom light going forward...
No one has doen better than SKY but BMC are as good as others
Its a buyers market ....so many riders want to ride for them selves and also BMC put alot of their resources into the classics ...


I think teams need to develop climbers ....like Sunweb have

However I do think BMC (like Astana) have lost alot of riders this year and dont seemed to have replaced them e.g. Hermans, Diller, Oss, Senni, Moinard ...Quinziato, Sanchez

 

[hazaran]

It's either that or the teams just correctly figure that 1) climbing support is overrated 2) climbing support when you're never the GC leader is *absolutely* overrated. No point in having a few more matching jerseys ride behind the Sky train and inevitably fall off.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

It's either that or the teams just correctly figure that 1) climbing support is overrated 2) climbing support when you're never the GC leader is *absolutely* overrated. No point in having a few more matching jerseys ride behind the Sky train and inevitably fall off.

You are mostly tight about the assessment. However there is probably that one time in a critical moment when you will need the mountain domestique. Maybe at least once in your GT race.

We have not seen the necessity because of Sky dominance. But let's say that Porte becomes a leader of a GT at one point and he will be toasted if he doesn't have them. So better have at least 2 good ones if possible.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

The fact is for a big budget team BMC has done poorly in bringing in climbing domestiques to support their GC riders - Reckon they have no idea.

Em I dont 100% agree with this...lots of team are having trouble in this area
Bahrain cant get doms for Nibali and Contador was never blessed with great MTN doms
UAE will have Aru & Martin next year but not the level of top MTN doms needed to win the Tour
BMC are better than these...even Movistar are Dom light going forward...
No one has doen better than SKY but BMC are as good as others
Its a buyers market ....so many riders want to ride for them selves and also BMC put alot of their resources into the classics ...

I am talking in general terms about BMC and their results, especially in GT's - had success in the Classics because Van Avermaat had a rich vein of form, always good in the TT, but little to show in GC, post Evans and they have no sprinters - Doubt they get bang for their buck - As a point of comparison Quick Step and Movie Star with far less budget are better value teams.


I think teams need to develop climbers ....like Sunweb have

However I do think BMC (like Astana) have lost alot of riders this year and dont seemed to have replaced them e.g. Hermans, Diller, Oss, Senni, Moinard ...Quinziato, Sanchez

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

The fact is for a big budget team BMC has done poorly in bringing in climbing domestiques to support their GC riders - Reckon they have no idea.

Em I dont 100% agree with this...lots of team are having trouble in this area
Bahrain cant get doms for Nibali and Contador was never blessed with great MTN doms
UAE will have Aru & Martin next year but not the level of top MTN doms needed to win the Tour
BMC are better than these...even Movistar are Dom light going forward...
No one has doen better than SKY but BMC are as good as others
Its a buyers market ....so many riders want to ride for them selves and also BMC put alot of their resources into the classics ...

I am talking in general terms about BMC and their results, especially in GT's - had success in the Classics because Van Avermaat had a rich vein of form, always good in the TT, but little to show in GC, post Evans and they have no sprinters - Doubt they get bang for their buck - As a point of comparison Quick Step and Movie Star with far less budget are better value teams.


I think teams need to develop climbers ....like Sunweb have

However I do think BMC (like Astana) have lost alot of riders this year and dont seemed to have replaced them e.g. Hermans, Diller, Oss, Senni, Moinard ...Quinziato, Sanchez

I wouldn't say it has been a raging success for Sunweb either. How many times was Dumoulin on his own in the Giro mountains ? What won the Giro for Dumoulin was his ability to pace himself on the climbs and do great TTs. He would have done the same on BMC. Sky and Movistar are the teams that seem to regularly get the best mountain doms. And any success like with Landa and Nieve means they become even more highly priced. In modern cycling the super doms are not as prevalent as they used to be maybe because the non climbers or average riders tend to be better climbers than in the past. Riders are more versatile.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

[quote="movingtarget"
I wouldn't say it has been a raging success for Sunweb either. How many times was Dumoulin on his own in the Giro mountains ? What won the Giro for Dumoulin was his ability to pace himself on the climbs and do great TTs. He would have done the same on BMC. Sky and Movistar are the teams that seem to regularly get the best mountain doms. And any success like with Landa and Nieve means they become even more highly priced. In modern cycling the super doms are not as prevalent as they used to be maybe because the non climbers or average riders tend to be better climbers than in the past. Riders are more versatile.[/quote]
...the Dutch alliance on stage 20 helped , although it merely made up for poopgate .

I agree with you to some extent, but reverse your argument: how many GTs would have Froome won without super-doms? Would Wiggins, same course, win the '12 Tour with a lesser team?

Dumoulin is the oddity, not the norm, although he proved that if you are the best ITT guy, you can pace yourself and limit your losses in the mountains. Particularly when your opponents ride defensively, i.e. not to lose.

To be fair, most of us had the same mindset, most of us expected Dumoulin to crack, have a terrible day. Like we all wait for something to happen with TJVG or Porte. Except that for Dumoulin it didn't happen.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

[quote="movingtarget"
I wouldn't say it has been a raging success for Sunweb either. How many times was Dumoulin on his own in the Giro mountains ? What won the Giro for Dumoulin was his ability to pace himself on the climbs and do great TTs. He would have done the same on BMC. Sky and Movistar are the teams that seem to regularly get the best mountain doms. And any success like with Landa and Nieve means they become even more highly priced. In modern cycling the super doms are not as prevalent as they used to be maybe because the non climbers or average riders tend to be better climbers than in the past. Riders are more versatile.

...the Dutch alliance on stage 20 helped , although it merely made up for poopgate .

I agree with you to some extent, but reverse your argument: how many GTs would have Froome won without super-doms? Would Wiggins, same course, win the '12 Tour with a lesser team?

Dumoulin is the oddity, not the norm, although he proved that if you are the best ITT guy, you can pace yourself and limit your losses in the mountains. Particularly when your opponents ride defensively, i.e. not to lose.

To be fair, most of us had the same mindset, most of us expected Dumoulin to crack, have a terrible day. Like we all wait for something to happen with TJVG or Porte. Except that for Dumoulin it didn't happen.[/quote]

Yes you can see it from both sides. Wiggins was the prototype for Froome but Wiggins never had the ability to go nuts in the mountains. Without poopgate the Giro would have been dull in the last days instead of going down to an interesting but predictable TT except for Pinot having a bad one. Quintana and Nibali tried but just were not good enough and couldn't make their attacks stick. Pinot looked as good on the climbs and on one stage he was better. Even Dumoulin managed to ride away from Quintana and Nibali on one mountain finish. If Nibali and Quintana turn up in that form to the Tour neither of them will podium and it seems already that more people are excited about Dumoulin doing the Tour than thinking Nibali or Quintana can win it. What ruined the Tour for me last year was not the fact Froome won but that falls ruined the race for Fulsgang, Martin and Porte and the best climber was sitting in front of Froome the entire race. I liked the race but with Martin and Porte showing some improvement the year before and Fulsgang coming off a great Dauphine it looked on paper to be a good battle for the podium positions. Bardet tried hard and Uran did what he had to do to reach the podium but never threatened Froome.

 

[HelloDolly]

So BMC down to 24 riders for 2018

https://twitter.com/TourDeJose/status/923129510320574465

So how are they going to support Porte and support GVA and fill all the races from TDU to Guangxi
I still dont understand the Gerrans buy ? IS he and Roelants going to replace Oss & Qunziato for GVA ...but will he ?

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

So BMC down to 24 riders for 2018

https://twitter.com/TourDeJose/status/923129510320574465

So how are they going to support Porte and support GVA and fill all the races from TDU to Guangxi
I still dont understand the Gerrans buy ? IS he and Roelants going to replace Oss & Qunziato for GVA ...but will he ?

I think BMC have already wound up their development squad for the younger riders so is this a sign that they don't intend to be around for more than another season or two ? The remaining squad is very light on for climbers. The only reason Gerrans has been signed I think is to support GVA but the way Gerrans has ridden the past two seasons is he even going to make to the finish near the best riders ? I thought he would surely retire and he isn't a domestique powerhouse like Oss so it is a strange signing. A young climber would have been better for the squad.

 

[dusty red roads]

Seen at the Japan Cup last Sunday, classic!!!!! (sorry, not sure how to embed an image)

https://twitter.com/BMCProTeam/status/922067517711020032

 

[Nirvana]

Re:

So BMC down to 24 riders for 2018

https://twitter.com/TourDeJose/status/923129510320574465

So how are they going to support Porte and support GVA and fill all the races from TDU to Guangxi
I still dont understand the Gerrans buy ? IS he and Roelants going to replace Oss & Qunziato for GVA ...but will he ?

Bettiol will be the Oss replacement.

 

[Tonton]

Porte seems to have a higher ceiling than Pinot, Bardet, Uran, Landa, Aru, even today's Nibali and maybe Quintana...on paper. He can TT with the best. and he can climb. And he has a better team than most. His failures may be getting to his head, and then (sh)it happens. The predicament, the curse. It's in his head.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Seen at the Japan Cup last Sunday, classic!!!!! (sorry, not sure how to embed an image)

https://twitter.com/BMCProTeam/status/922067517711020032

Good one. Like to see him standing next to The Devil !