Rider Safety - The Solutions?

[Papparrazzi]

Here is an idea. Ban full carbon rims for mass start races. Not only are the deep profiles more susceptible to wind, but the braking performance sucks, especially in the wet.

Yes, it has to be said that most crashes are because the riders are going too fast for the conditions, wet roads, narrow roads, twisting roads ...... SLOW DOWN!

 

[L'arriviste]

Big deal,

I maintain this deserves a crminal inquiry.

The above poster who rode/drove in the tour agrees with my point that too much time in the cafe may have been involved.

Breathalyze
Take into custody
Investigate

Why is no one asking about this?!?!

Beside that article, there's a newer one which tells us that a preliminary inquiry by Aurillac police is now underway to determine who was at fault.

 

[Papparrazzi]

Making reactionary rule changes helps no-one. There have been a lot of bad crashes at this Tour, yes, but there are bad crashes every year. Random chance dictates that every now and then there will be a Tour de France with a large number of crashes involving major GC contenders.

We can't wrap riders in cotton wool. The sport today is the safest it has ever been, and freak accidents do not change that. This has been a nasty tour, but it's no-one's fault.
The only thing I think we can learn is that the race organisers need to control the flow of vehicles around the peloton better to ensure the chances of collisions between race vehicles and riders are minimised. That's it.

No-one's fault? EVERYTHING is someone's fault.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Big deal,

I maintain this deserves a crminal inquiry.

The above poster who rode/drove in the tour agrees with my point that too much time in the cafe may have been involved.

Breathalyze
Take into custody
Investigate

Why is no one asking about this?!?!

It was just mentioned on the twitter feed of @inrng (The InnerRing) that

French police confirm they are now investigating yesterday's motorised 5-pin bowling manoeuvre, a "traffic accident involving bodily injury"

.... which is welcome news - of course it is too late to breathalyze the driver, but at least they should be hit with a proper penalty and it should serve as a reminder to all in the cavalcade they are not above the law.

 

[Papparrazzi]

Can't help thinking that Armstrong had no major smashes in his tdf reign. Also during that time we never saw the carnage we saw today
someone mentioned earlier that the peloton has no leader.
Would LA's luck have anyhting to do with the fact that he totally controlled the peloton and that anyone riding like a tool was dealt with?
Or that any race officials driving like tools were dealt with?
Or any race organisers being tools were dealt with?

Good point. And this was the case in the Merckx, Hinault, Indurain times too. El Pistolero is the obvious candidate in the Tour, but he doesn't appear to have the character to take control. Seems Cancellara has taken on the mantle a couple of times, but not to great effect ....

 

[Cobblestones]

It was just mentioned on the twitter feed of @inrng (The InnerRing) that

.... which is welcome news - of course it is too late to breathalyze the driver, but at least they should be hit with a proper penalty and it should serve as a reminder to all in the cavalcade they are not above the law.

If alcohol in the caravan is a problem, they should breathalyze every driver before the start.

 

[Papparrazzi]

If alcohol in the caravan is a problem, they should breathalyze every driver before the start.

They're stopping at Bars on the Tour route !

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If alcohol in the caravan is a problem, they should breathalyze every driver before the start.

Firstly, I am not suggesting yesterdays incident was alcohol related - just that for any investigation it would be an obvious consideration.

While breathalyzing drivers would be a prudent step, at the start may not be the best time. As has been mentioned earlier, many of these 'VIP' trips involve a stop for dinner - this is where the risk of having a glass or 2 of the local brew is most dangerous.

Also, in the TdF roadbook it is stated that:

Alcohol and drugs:
- zero alcohol limit: 0,0g/litre of blood
- alcohol and cannabis uptake tests to
be carried out during the event.

And further on it states:

All cases of rule breaking (excessive speed, mobile telephone use, etc.) will be subject to sanctions
ranging from a warning to temporary exclusion from the race, or more severe punishment in serious
or repeat cases.
A refusal to co-operate with the checks will result in the immediate removal of the vehicle from the
race, and a summons to the Security Commission for the driver.
The sanctions taken within the race are in no way a replacement for each driver’s CRIMINAL
RESPONSIBILTY in the case of an accident.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

The sanctions taken within the race are in no way a replacement for each driver’s CRIMINAL
RESPONSIBILTY in the case of an accident.

Out of interest, what is the legal position WRT disobeying a directive from the Race Director, i.e. since the road has been closed for public use, and is in the Commissaires & Race Director's control, does their "word" become the "law" for that period of time that the road is closed for the race's passing, until the road is re-opened to public use?

I am very glad that an offical accident investigation is underway, as should rightly happen.

Any word on if the riders will be given the same time as Sandy Casar, being the last finisher of the breakaway group that they were riding in when the accident happened?

To my thinking this would be a reasonable situation, as they were disadvantaged by an action deemed illegal by the race committee, in that the driver disobeyed a direct order from the race officials.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Out of interest, what is the legal position WRT disobeying a directive from the Race Director, i.e. since the road has been closed for public use, and is in the Commissaires & Race Director's control, does their "word" become the "law" for that period of time that the road is closed for the race's passing, until the road is re-opened to public use?

I am very glad that an offical accident investigation is underway, as should rightly happen.

Any word on if the riders will be given the same time as Sandy Casar, being the last finisher of the breakaway group that they were riding in when the accident happened?

To my thinking this would be a reasonable situation, as they were disadvantaged by an action deemed illegal by the race committee, in that the driver disobeyed a direct order from the race officials.

A 'directive' from the Race Director has no legal bearing - the organizers have their own rules but clearly state this does not replace the drivers 'criminal responsibility'.

As for the riders getting the same time as Casar - it is (an unfortunate) racing incident so there is no reason to give them the same time. That's racing.

 

[Cobblestones]

Firstly, I am not suggesting yesterdays incident was alcohol related - just that for any investigation it would be an obvious consideration.

While breathalyzing drivers would be a prudent step, at the start may not be the best time. As has been mentioned earlier, many of these 'VIP' trips involve a stop for dinner - this is where the risk of having a glass or 2 of the local brew is most dangerous.

Also, in the TdF roadbook it is stated that:


And further on it states:

Good. So again, the rules are really in place. It's more a matter of adherence and enforcement.

 

[Escarabajo]

Would putting a high mountain top stage finish on stage 3 help reduce the nervousness at the front of the Peloton in the subsequent stages?

I know it has been mentioned a lot in the past so I am posting it here again.

Accidents still going to happen but I can not avoid thinking that leaving the first real mountain stage on the 12th day of racing creates a very nervous and tense peloton.

Riders would have to be almost on peak at the beginning of the race but that's more associated with the way they approach their training than anything else.

Note: if somebody already mentioned this then my excuses.

 

[Christian Schneider]

I also think there's a case for using smaller cars when the road is only one car wide. It would cause some logistical problems but none that can't be overcome.[/QUOTE]

This maybe part of the problem. NARROW ROADS, seems to me that a few years ago when the Vuelta was looking for more attention then began to use obsure little roads. They did this when the finish was up hill the peloton was stretched out. But we are seeing race promoters go to narrow cow paths that are only a car's width and useing these routes though out the stage.

Stick 200 riders, riding for their livelyhoods, on a path that can hadle four abreast at best, add couple dozen cars full of journalist and sponsors and there are bound to be the crashes that get media attention. The non-cycling media loves bloody cyclists even more then doped cyclists.

 

[Papparrazzi]

Team Sky consider legal options -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jul/11/tour-de-france-2011-team-sky?CMP=twt_gu

 

[Aapjes]

A 'directive' from the Race Director has no legal bearing - the organizers have their own rules but clearly state this does not replace the drivers 'criminal responsibility'.

If the driver signed a agreement with the ASO (likely), he could be guilty of breach of contract.

Furthermore, just because the directives from the ASO aren't law, doesn't mean that they won't be considered in a criminal case. In these cases, successful prosecution hinges on the question whether the driver behaved recklessly. Ignoring clear and direct orders by the Race Director seems like strong proof to me.

 

[Papparrazzi]

@Bonnie_D_Ford
Bonnie D. Ford
I will speak for my press caravan colleagues in saying we all fear the approach of France 2/3. Consistently over-agro

 

[phanatic]

Interesting and for me surprising read:
http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/has-the-2011-tour-de-france-really-been-more-dangerous/

The chart does seem to indicate a much lower attrition rate with 180 riders (20 teams) rather than 189 or 198.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If the driver signed a agreement with the ASO (likely), he could be guilty of breach of contract.

Furthermore, just because the directives from the ASO aren't law, doesn't mean that they won't be considered in a criminal case. In these cases, successful prosecution hinges on the question whether the driver behaved recklessly. Ignoring clear and direct orders by the Race Director seems like strong proof to me.

Not disagreeing with your overall point but ignoring directions from an organizer will have no legal bearing.
Its quite clear from the video footage that the manoeuver was (at the very least) reckless with or without permission from the organizers.

As for any agreement with ASO - I posted the 'rules' for driving that ASO published, which includes use of seat-belts and mobile devices, which are routinely ignored. There appears to be a lack of enforcement by ASO.

 

[brollebol]

If this has been brought up before, ignore this post. But the latest news is that Vacansoleil will not pursue legal action. Could this possibly be caused by fear of not being invited to the TdF in the future? Seems like VCD is taking the accident (too) lightly.

 

[thirteen]

If this has been brought up before, ignore this post. But the latest news is that Vacansoleil will not pursue legal action. Could this possibly be caused by fear of not being invited to the TdF in the future? Seems like VCD is taking the accident (too) lightly.

i think that is entirely likely, sad to say.

and poor Hoogerland may have nightmares for a long, long time:

According to the De Telegraaf newspaper, Hoogerland slept for just four hours on Sunday night and suffered nightmares after his accident.
“I relived the crash last night. I dreamed that my back hit a pole and that ended up in a wheel chair. The incident played out in my head and I woke up in a sweat,” he said.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

 

[T-Nielsen]

They are all better actors then Statham, but NONE of them are cool enough to fill the shoes of Ian McShane. ;o)

 

[indurain666]

IMO:

1) Do a prologue and separate guys a bit more so that you don't have 140 guys chasing yellow jersey during first week.

2) Roads are too narrow for too long.

3) Review helmets' performance: As a former rider and now an engineer, I do not believe those guys saying that crashing at 50 kmh with a helmet is like crashing at 40 without a helmet. There is a lot of improvement we could do to helmets eve if that means making them heavier and less aerodynamic by adding more material all around the right spots. All these ideas should not be simply neglected by the "helmets don't really save lives at those speeds" argument; designers should be forced to start working on safer equipment. I think it is unacceptable to believe that with today's technological capabilities, Weylandt or Casartelli's lives could not have been saved with a more protective helmet.

4) Deep profile rims should be studied too.

5) Reduce number of cars in the race.

 

[Red Lobster]

Would putting a high mountain top stage finish on stage 3 help reduce the nervousness at the front of the Peloton in the subsequent stages?

I know it has been mentioned a lot in the past so I am posting it here again.

Accidents still going to happen but I can not avoid thinking that leaving the first real mountain stage on the 12th day of racing creates a very nervous and tense peloton.

Riders would have to be almost on peak at the beginning of the race but that's more associated with the way they approach their training than anything else.

Note: if somebody already mentioned this then my excuses.

Well of course you right. If your team's GC "leader" is already 10 minutes down obviously the incentive to order the team to fight to stay in front to avoid any possible splits is substantially reduced. But to an organizer a tight first week like we've seen keeps the drama and interest ratcheted up.

 

[Escarabajo]

IMO:

1) Do a prologue and separate guys a bit more so that you don't have 140 guys chasing yellow jersey during first week.

2) Roads are too narrow for too long.

3) Review helmets' performance: As a former rider and now an engineer, I do not believe those guys saying that crashing at 50 kmh with a helmet is like crashing at 40 without a helmet. There is a lot of improvement we could do to helmets eve if that means making them heavier and less aerodynamic by adding more material all around the right spots. All these ideas should not be simply neglected by the "helmets don't really save lives at those speeds" argument; designers should be forced to start working on safer equipment. I think it is unacceptable to believe that with today's technological capabilities, Weylandt or Casartelli's lives could not have been saved with a more protective helmet.

4) Deep profile rims should be studied too.

5) Reduce number of cars in the race.

+1.

I'll add to your number 1 that instead of a prologue do a small TT instead. maybe 15 km or something close. that way the separation is even bigger.