Riders to watch in 2012

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

stupid. You say this fact is irrelevant, when you are the one who said for such a big budget rabo suck. Hate to break this to you but the big budget is not solely for the PT team, thus his point is very relevant.

I was aware of that. The youngest has been saying this for god knows how long. Check his forum history.

A very large chunk of that budget is for the ProTeam, though, I guess 12 million or so or more. Their PT budget is higher than a team like Liquigas for sure. Other than Marianne Vos they don't have any star riders in their other divisions.

They pay their WT riders handsomely, thiough, even though they don't have big earners like Menchov, Freire and Boogerd anymore. But they used to when their budget was smaller. Boom and especially Bos are overpaid. Renshaw is overpaid.



They have enough Dutch mountain domestiques, BTW. Gesink, Kruyswijck (or however you spell it), Mollema, Ten Dam. If one of them leads the team, that's three of them. Plenty if you don't have an obvious podium contender in the team. IMO

 

[theyoungest]

If we're shifting the discussion to "deserved" wins, what's the point anyway. Obviously Nibali's Vuelta win wasn't lucky according to these standards? And a headstart from a TTT doesn't count, because it's a team achievement, which is what we were talking about in the first place?

 

[movingtarget]

I was aware of that. The youngest has been saying this for god knows how long. Check his forum history.

A very large chunk of that budget is for the ProTeam, though, I guess 12 million or so or more. Their PT budget is higher than a team like Liquigas for sure. Other than Marianne Vos they don't have any star riders in their other divisions.

They pay their WT riders handsomely, thiough, even though they don't have big earners like Menchov, Freire and Boogerd anymore. But they used to when their budget was smaller. Boom and especially Bos are overpaid. Renshaw is overpaid.



They have enough Dutch mountain domestiques, BTW. Gesink, Kruyswijck (or however you spell it), Mollema, Ten Dam. If one of them leads the team, that's three of them. Plenty if you don't have an obvious podium contender in the team. IMO

How is Renshaw overpaid ? He has not ridden a race for them yet.

 

[El Pistolero]

the thing is, you gotta be ignorant or total anti-rabo/dutch (see; el pickle) to not recognize the team is constantly heading in the right direction. The majority of their best riders are all young, each year they are bring talented youngster in and the results are getting better each year, especially in a dutch perspective which is the main concern of the team. But no means is this rabo project not looking promising or successful.

@ el pickle, a list of how many riders actually can "realistically" win a monument Sure zaugg, goss, nuyems, jvs were all on ours lists 12 months ago

Goss was hardly a surprise win when half the peloton with all the sprinters got elminated long before the final. I knew he won Milan-San Remo the moment I saw his name in the remaining peloton. Nick Nuyens already got second at the Ronde once, he was no surprise Monument winner. He's better than everything Rabo has and when he was on Rabo he unsurprisingly sucked. Johan Vansummeren is also much better than anything Rabobank has for the cobbles. Hardly a surprise to see him win from a breakaway. And everyone was saying this was a potential scenario with everyone looking at Cancellara. So no, it wasn't a big surprise to see someone win P-R from a breakaway.

Zaugg was the only true surprise as far as I know. And I doubt it will ever happen again with Lombardia changing dates.

Ps: no, Rabo is not getting better. They're getting weaker. They used to have Rasmussen, Freire, Menchov, Erik Dekker, Michael Boogerd(at least he podiumed the Ardennes classics and used to be a decentish domestique) etc
Now they have no big star at all

So what if Kruiswyck did a top 10 in a Giro? Marco Pinotti has a top 10 in a Giro. Even Manuel Garate has 3 top tens in a Giro! What did Mollema win this year exactly? How was Gesink's year? They lost the Dutchies who brought in some of their biggest victories this season: Sebastian Langeveld and Pieter Weening.

 

[theyoungest]

Johan Vansummeren is also much better than anything Rabobank has for the cobbles.

Ah shut up, without a flat Lars Boom could have challenged him for the win in Roubaix.

So what if Kruiswyck did a top 10 in a Giro? Marco Pinotti has 3 top tens in a Giro. Even Manuel Garate has a top ten in a Giro! What did Mollema win this year exactly? How was Gesink's year? They lost the Dutchies who brought in some of their biggest victories this season: Sebastian Langeveld and Pieter Weening.

Kruijswijk however was 23 years old when he got that top-10. Mollema, 24 years old, had the best year of his career so far, including a 4th place in the Vuelta. I think Timmy's point refers to the fact that these youngsters are getting better, and are likely to improve for some more years.

And yes, Weening is indeed a great loss

They don't have any stars anymore, that's true, but I don't know if Freire and Menchov are really the guys they need at the moment, considering their respective seasons.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm with Pickle on one thing - as soon as they identified Goss in the front péloton at Sanremo, I had that horrible sinking feeling of knowing he was going to win.

Bad times, bad times.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ah shut up, without a flat Lars Boom could have challenged him for the win in Roubaix.


Kruijswijk however was 23 years old when he got that top-10. Mollema, 24 years old, had the best year of his career so far, including a 4th place in the Vuelta. I think Timmy's point refers to the fact that these youngsters are getting better, and are likely to improve for some more years.

And yes, Weening is indeed a great loss

Whatever helps you sleep at night LOL.

Manuel Garate was 25/26 years old when he got FOURTH at the Giro. Mollema's Tour performance says more to me than his Vuelta performance. No one in Belgium is hyping someone like Maxim Monfort to be our next GT hope and he got sixth.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I'm with Pickle on one thing - as soon as they identified Goss in the front péloton at Sanremo, I had that horrible sinking feeling of knowing he was going to win.

Bad times, bad times.

Why don't you like Goss? In that finale he covered all the attacks well and put in a strong sprint to win a sprinters classic.

 

[theyoungest]

Whatever helps you sleep at night LOL.

I'm not a Boom fan, at all. Hence I don't give a .... what he did or does in Roubaix.

Manuel Garate was 25/26 years old when he got FOURTH at the Giro.

So Kruijswijk has 2 more years. Great. Not to mention the great field of that particular Giro Garate got 4th in.

I'm with Pickle on one thing - as soon as they identified Goss in the front péloton at Sanremo, I had that horrible sinking feeling of knowing he was going to win.

Bad times, bad times.

What on earth is wrong with Goss winning MSR? A sprinter who can survive a hill winning a race for sprinters who can survive a hill?

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm with Pickle on one thing - as soon as they identified Goss in the front péloton at Sanremo, I had that horrible sinking feeling of knowing he was going to win.

Bad times, bad times.

Goss showed more initiative in Milan-San Remo than Valverde ever has in a classic.

 

[Havetts]

Why don't you like Goss? In that finale he covered all the attacks well and put in a strong sprint to win a sprinters classic.

Only for the last 10 years its been dubbed a 'sprinters' classic..

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not a Boom fan, at all. Hence I don't give a .... what he did or does in Roubaix.


So Kruijswijk has 2 more years. Great. Not to mention the great field of that particular Giro.

1. Juan José - I'm a big joke- Cobo
2. Chris - I've never done anything in my career - Froome
3. Bradley - I'm still recovering from my crash at the Tour - Wiggins
4. Bauke Mollema
5. Dennis - I lost a lot of time for no apparent reason on a silly stage not to mention I suck this year and working for my leader - Menchov
6. Maxim - I'm not even a climber - Monfort
7. Vincenzo - I screwed my peak up - Nibali
8. Jurgen - I'm still recovering from a collapsed lung, broken shoulder-blade and broken ribs - Van den Broeck.
9. Daniel - lol - Moreno.
10. Mikel - I deserve where I stand - Nieve.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Whatever helps you sleep at night LOL.

Manuel Garate was 25/26 years old when he got FOURTH at the Giro. Mollema's Tour performance says more to me than his Vuelta performance. No one in Belgium is hyping someone like Maxim Monfort to be our next GT hope and he got sixth.

That's because Monfort is 28 already, and will always be a domestique. Jelle Vanendert is being hyped as the next big Belgian climber since his TdF stage win though.

 

[El Pistolero]

That's because Monfort is 28 already, and will always be a domestique. Jelle Vanendert is being hyped as the next big Belgian climber since his TdF stage win though.

Yeah, climber. But we all know he'll never win a GT because of his crappy time trial. He's more hyped for the Ardennes classics.

I'm just naming Monfort to show you how weak the field was in that Vuelta. He's a great cyclist, but he's not a very good climber.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why don't you like Goss? In that finale he covered all the attacks well and put in a strong sprint to win a sprinters classic.

Nothing personal against Goss. He raced very well and very smart. But from 80km out, I knew that HTC were going to win. Depressing.

It was as un-HTC a victory as we could ever imagine in the end, and the most exciting edition of Sanremo, which is usually the most boring monument, in years, because for once some other riders realised that it was possible to make something other than a bunch sprint. But it was still HTC.

Pisti, Goss won a sprint from a small group where he never sat on the front once until the last 150m, because he didn't have to. Goss didn't do anything Valverde didn't do in LBL 2008. Both races came down to small groups won by the best sprinter in the group, who covered all the right moves, and didn't do the work because he didn't have to. I don't see how Goss showed any more initiative than Valverde, other than not being stupid enough to be caught in the original 80 man split.

 

[El Pistolero]

Nothing personal against Goss. He raced very well and very smart. But from 80km out, I knew that HTC were going to win. Depressing.

It was as un-HTC a victory as we could ever imagine in the end, and the most exciting edition of Sanremo, which is usually the most boring monument, in years, because for once some other riders realised that it was possible to make something other than a bunch sprint. But it was still HTC.

Pisti, Goss won a sprint from a small group where he never sat on the front once until the last 150m, because he didn't have to. Goss didn't do anything Valverde didn't do in LBL 2008. Both races came down to small groups won by the best sprinter in the group, who covered all the right moves, and didn't do the work because he didn't have to. I don't see how Goss showed any more initiative than Valverde, other than not being stupid enough to be caught in the original 80 man split.

Valverde doesn't even chase, he let's other people chase. Like at Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2010.

Let me rephrase then, he showed as much initiative as Valverde usually does in a classic. If you're going to complain about Goss winning, then please do the same about Valverde.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

LMAO at this steaming pile of **** masquerading as a thread.

How is Renshaw overpaid ? He has not ridden a race for them yet.

They'll be paying him way above his market value. That's what I meant, nothing more.

Of course, if he wins a couple Tour stages it was well worth it, but given his record as a ****-poor sprinter that doesn't seem likely.

If we're shifting the discussion to "deserved" wins, what's the point anyway. Obviously Nibali's Vuelta win wasn't lucky according to these standards? And a headstart from a TTT doesn't count, because it's a team achievement, which is what we were talking about in the first place?

Both Nibali and Menchov's wins were "deserved" IMO. They didn't win (or podium) because of the TTT, or because they didn't do **** in a breakaway and a strong competitor (Flecha) was taken out by French television. That stage should have been neutralized right then. At least Basso reached the TDF top 8 on his own merits, despite his crash in Sicily.

If you want to talk facts, though: Liquigas' Tour was better, their Giro was way better and their Vuelta was at least as good (I'd say easily better, but you probably think a points jersey and a 4th place is > than 3 stage wins and a 7th place on GC.). Pais Vasco isn't a high profile race, sadly. If it ain't on TV it ain't high profile.

TTTs shouldn't dramatically change a top 5, or podium, though, as in TA. Rabobank was strong in the flat TTT, but were weak in the hilly stages. They didn't dominate TA at all.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm with Pickle on one thing - as soon as they identified Goss in the front péloton at Sanremo, I had that horrible sinking feeling of knowing he was going to win.

Bad times, bad times.

What if it was Cav?

 

[El Pistolero]

What if it was Cav?

Don't think Cav would have survived the Poggio. Do you?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Valverde doesn't even chase, he let's other people chase. Like at Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2010.

Let me rephrase then, he showed as much initiative as Valverde usually does in a classic. If you're going to complain about Goss winning, then please do the same about Valverde.

How much did Goss do the actual chasing? Very little. He raced smart. As Óscar Freire says, to win, first you have to be prepared to lose. It was Pozzato not being prepared to let Gilbert go that won Goss that race, Goss had to gamble on the others chasing Gilbert, because they didn't want to take Goss to the line, but they didn't want to chase Gilbert down. Sounds more or less like Valverde in 2008; cover the right moves until the group is at its smallest. The difference was there was only 3 in that final group and they let it go to a sprint (probably foolhardy against Valverde as there was only ever likely to be one winner). Goss only did the work he had to do, the rest of the time he let other people do it.

My problem with his winning was NOT how he did it. It was that he was racing for a team I didn't want to see win. When he was identified in the large group, I think he was the only HTC? He may have had one domestique there. But nobody else who was a realistic option for the win, and hence he was the last person in that group I wanted to see win. Not because of Matthew Goss the rider, or how he behaves on the bike. But because I did not want to see that team win, even on those rare occasions that they were being interesting.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pais Vasco isn't a high profile race, sadly. If it ain't on TV it ain't high profile.

It is on TV. You can still watch it in the videozone at http://www.eitbtv.es

 

[El Pistolero]

How much did Goss do the actual chasing? Very little. He raced smart. As Óscar Freire says, to win, first you have to be prepared to lose. It was Pozzato not being prepared to let Gilbert go that won Goss that race, Goss had to gamble on the others chasing Gilbert, because they didn't want to take Goss to the line, but they didn't want to chase Gilbert down. Sounds more or less like Valverde in 2008; cover the right moves until the group is at its smallest. The difference was there was only 3 in that final group and they let it go to a sprint (probably foolhardy against Valverde as there was only ever likely to be one winner). Goss only did the work he had to do, the rest of the time he let other people do it.

My problem with his winning was NOT how he did it. It was that he was racing for a team I didn't want to see win. When he was identified in the large group, I think he was the only HTC? He may have had one domestique there. But nobody else who was a realistic option for the win, and hence he was the last person in that group I wanted to see win. Not because of Matthew Goss the rider, or how he behaves on the bike. But because I did not want to see that team win, even on those rare occasions that they were being interesting.

That's just silly lol. Anyway, Goss did cover a strong attack from Cancellara and that's when Gilbert decided to attack.

 

[Panda Claws]

That's just silly lol. Anyway, Goss did cover a strong attack from Cancellara and that's when Gilbert decided to attack.

He covered Gilbert as well but Gilbert played it smart.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

It is on TV. You can still watch it in the videozone at http://www.eitbtv.es

It's not on TV here, sadly. T-A is, however. Doesn't seem fair.

 

[El Pistolero]

It's not on TV here, sadly. T-A is, however. Doesn't seem fair.

I've never actually seen Pais Vasco except for vids on youtube. T-A is my most favorite stage race though.