Roche/Gadret: polemica in 2011 Tour?

[kurtinsc]

I said, I doubt Roche stood still for 4 minutes waiting for a new wheel.

There is a difference between getting a wheel, chasing up to a group and hanging on the back... and riding solo up the mountain.

Roche was by himself once the neutral service car got him a wheel.

If he was hanging with a group further up the road then the one Gadret was hanging on with, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that with a quick wheel change he'd be able to hang on to the group Gadret was with (at 3:55). If not then maybe the next one back (the Kreuziger/Armstrong/Kloden/Rodriguez/Sastre group at 4:08).

But instead all of those riders passed him, along with the next bunch including LuLu, Basso, Lloyd, Garate, Plaza and Horner at 5:44, and he chased solo.

I don't think I'm stretching all that much. When Evans had his neutral service fiasco at the Vuelta a few years back, he was only off his bike for what... 45 seconds? Maybe less? But he lost a minute and a half because he had to chase solo and burnt himself out... and the part he was chasing on was not as mountainous. I'm sure Gadret not giving up the wheel didn't result in Roche waiting on the side of the road for 4 additional minutes. That doesn't mean it didn't cost him 4 minutes worth of time.

 

[El Pistolero]

Regardless, a french team would be happy with a top 10-20.
If the team orders are help your leader, he should man up and ride for the team. I dislike his one-man-team attitude. When Menchov was required in the past, he gave up his own aspirations and rode a team role, I can argue he is too good for that. But i admire that he still rode for the team, rather then go on some ego trip.

If he isn't in form, he aint gonna be winning stages anyway, it doesn't work like that. Sastre sucked at giro, we didn't see him getting in the break and owning.

Sastre was sick at the Giro and is past his peak anyway.

Riding for GC at the Giro and hunt for stages at the Tour is possible and has been proven many times. Yes, this Giro was harder than other years, but the weather conditions were also a lot nicer which makes for "easier" racing than racing in the rain all day long.

 

[Sparta]

It happened on stage 15.

For him to have been PASSED by Gadret and not given the wheel... he would have had to be ahead of Gadret... right?

Gadret finished 3:55 back of Voekler on the stage in 18th. Roche finished by himself 7:52 back.

3:57 is pretty close to 4 minutes.


I suppose you can argue that Roche was simply weaker and would still have lost more time even if Gadret had given him the wheel right away... but the fact is he WAS ahead prior to punturing.

This
To argue against this is idiotic but it doesn't surprise me who is arguing it. Gadret was never going to do anything on the stage so in a team sport you do what is best for the team and the chance of a 10th place finish is better than a 15th place finish.

 

[hrotha]

This
To argue against this is idiotic but it doesn't surprise me who is arguing it.

Uh, excuse me?

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not arguing against it, I just understand why nobody is willing to work for someone so average. I hate it when teams go out to try and place someone in top 20. Talk about low hopes.

I just don't remember Roche losing 4 minutes, that's all. Not like it was shown live. Besides the only time Roche was probably mentioned during the Tour was because of this debacle. Bad publicity is good publicity.

 

[cocteau_ireland]

Am conjuring image of a maniacal el pistolero repeating 'roche is average..roche is average..roche is average' ad nauseum

 

[The Hitch]

I agree that he shouldn't ride for GC this Tour, but help his team leader? Why? For a 15th place? That's depressing... For Gadret that is. Winning on Bastille day for example, seems so much more important for a French team than to get in the top 20 with an Irish dude.

I dont see Gadret winning Luz.

Regardless, a french team would be happy with a top 10-20.
If the team orders are help your leader, he should man up and ride for the team. I dislike his one-man-team attitude. When Menchov was required in the past, he gave up his own aspirations and rode a team role, I can argue he is too good for that. But i admire that he still rode for the team, rather then go on some ego trip.

If he isn't in form, he aint gonna be winning stages anyway, it doesn't work like that. Sastre sucked at giro, we didn't see him getting in the break and owning.

But you do on occasion see riders who are tired from the Giro able to show some awesomness on stages/ kom but not go for overall gc.

Delfino 2009 is the best recent example i can think of though you sometimes see Giro winners win stages or come top 10 but not compete for overall.

As an Irishman I am biased towards Roche, but i'm not blind. Gadret's result in the Giro was excellent, but this may have been his zenith for the year. If I was running Ag2R i would look at a multi leader scenario. Nocenteni, Dupont, Gadret and Roche are similar abilities and all capable of top 15 on GC, but one will be more ahead come the Tour. I'd let the racing decide then get the team to support the 2 strongest on the road.

I wish Rinaldo was capable of top 15 but he is no GC rider.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Sastre was sick at the Giro and is past his peak anyway.

Riding for GC at the Giro and hunt for stages at the Tour is possible and has been proven many times. Yes, this Giro was harder than other years, but the weather conditions were also a lot nicer which makes for "easier" racing than racing in the rain all day long.

my point was, when you don't have good form, you're not gonna be good enough to win in breaks either. I have seen riders who expected to be good at a race fail many times, and then attempt to salvage something in the breakaway just to fail again.

@hitch, Gadret isn't some super talent tho. I highly doubt he'll be great at the tour after his recent effort. without the juice anyway.

 

[El Pistolero]

my point was, when you don't have good form, you're not gonna be good enough to win in breaks either. I have seen riders who expected to be good at a race fail many times, and then attempt to salvage something in the breakaway just to fail again.

@hitch, Gadret isn't some super talent tho. I highly doubt he'll be great at the tour after his recent effort. without the juice anyway.

If he's not in good form as you say, then he won't be of much help for the team in the Tour anyway and should better stay home then. I'm sure they'll do testing to see how his form is before he'll start.

 

[PedalCastro]

Good ride by Roche today, looks like his form has improved a lot. He should be team leader if he can keep it up

 

[vcampbell]

Remembering to the good old times:
"Hubert gave me his rear wheel when I punctured in the descent, with 20 kilometres to go. Thanks to him, I was able to catch up with the favourites" - Team Gadret strikes again

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gadret-saves-giro-ditalia-gc-hopes-thanks-to-teammate

 

[Mister A]

Had to chuckle reading that. It would have been pretty sweet if Dupont had just said no and rode on.

 

[theyoungest]

The difference is, of course, that Gadret can actually get a good result in this race. Whereas Roche in the TDF was at best fighting for 15th place.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

The difference is, of course, that Gadret can actually get a good result in this race. Whereas Roche in the TDF was at best fighting for 15th place.

He got 15th place. At the time he was at best looking to scrape into the top 10. Not that it makes all that much difference to your point: Gadret is indeed a better prospect for GC at the Giro than Roche is at the Tour. In turn that doesn't really effect the wider point that even if a rider disagrees with the team's priorities, it is seriously corrosive to team morale for him to just ignore those priorities and tell the designated leader to get lost.

That said, it's precisely his "maverick" behaviour that makes me like Gadret. Like when he climbed for a couple of km ten yards ahead of Dupont at last year's Giro rather than work with him! The sport can always do with a few personalities about the place. Also, I have a sneaking fondness for out and out climbers who can't time trial to save their lives.

 

[vcampbell]

The difference is, of course, that Gadret can actually get a good result in this race. Whereas Roche in the TDF was at best fighting for 15th place.

Roche was the GC men for Ag2r, Gadret a teammate. Roche was then in a better position, but he lost there 3:57 to Gadret. Suppose Gadret gives his wheel to Roche, and Roche finishes were Gadret was on that stage, so -3:57 from his overall time. It means he would have finished in the final GC on the 11th position.
So actually Gadret can fvck himself.

 

[theyoungest]

Roche was the GC men for Ag2r, Gadret a teammate. Roche was then in a better position, but he lost there 3:57 to Gadret. Suppose Gadret gives his wheel to Roche, and Roche finishes were Gadret was on that stage, so -3:57 from his overall time. It means he would have finished in the final GC on the 11th position.
So actually Gadret can fvck himself.

Of course Gadret is an a.shole for doing that, but I can imagine it's hard to sacrifice yourself for someone who is nowhere close to you as a climber. Certainly if you're an a.shole like Gadret

 

[vcampbell]

Of course Gadret is an a.shole for doing that, but I can imagine it's hard to sacrifice yourself for someone who is nowhere close to you as a climber. Certainly if you're an a.shole like Gadret

In 2010 Roche was the better climber on the Tour.

 

[taiwan]

In 2010 Roche was the better climber on the Tour.

...Gadret having already ridden the Giro.

 

[vcampbell]

...Gadret having already ridden the Giro.

And? Who cares? And actually it's one more reason why he should have given his tire to Roche.

 

[martyfulu]

yea. i was. in fairness it was resurrected. didnt see.

 

[theyoungest]

i think he got tenth in last years tour.

You're replying to a thread from two years ago