Roche/Gadret: polemica in 2011 Tour?

[El Pistolero]

It is a team sport no ? It has nothing to do with where he may finish overall. The team leader gets the help. When Roche needed the wheel, he was riding well, hence his frustration re the Ahole who refused to help his own team mate.

I'd be frustrated if I had to do domestique work for someone like Roche as well.

It's a team sport, so perhaps Roche shouldn't expect 8 people to sacrifice them self for his own mediocre goals. Let alone one.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

I'd be frustrated if I had to do domestique work for someone like Roche as well.

Presumably you think that Gadret had something better to be doing? And no doubt you think it's a joy and a pleasure to be doing domestique work for someone better?

Ag2r's main goal every day was to get someone in the break. If you weren't in the break, you get bottles for their fringe sprinter or their fringe GC man. That's how this stuff works.

 

[El Pistolero]

Presumably you think that Gadret had something better to be doing? And no doubt you think it's a joy and a pleasure to be doing domestique work for someone better?

Ag2r's main goal every day was to get someone in the break. If you weren't in the break, you get bottles for their fringe sprinter or their fringe GC man.

Yeah, working for his team.

Team GADRET.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Yeah, working for his team.

Team GADRET.

Well, quite. That's why I like the little weasel.

 

[El Pistolero]

Well, quite. That's why I like the little weasel.

Let's also not forget his cyclocross background

That makes me wondering, Stybar being all alone in cyclocross races? Who else does QS have lol.

 

[MisterX]

To protect someone's 16th place lol?

I'll go with what Hinault recently said. People don't remember someone coming 15th or something at the Tour, but stage winners are remembered.

I think Roche is a very average cyclist that only gets attention because of his name.

Well atleast the Irish have some talents that could do pretty well in future GT's. They have Roche and D.Martin. When was the last time the Belgians had a GT contender or aspiring GT contender? Oh yeah, Axel Merckx, now there's someone who was pretty average.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Well atleast the Irish have some talents that could do pretty well in future GT's. They have Roche and D.Martin. When was the last time the Belgians had a GT contender or aspiring GT contender? Oh yeah, Axel Merckx, now there's someone who was pretty average.

Van Den Broeck has better GC results than Roche or Martin and is a safer bet to get good GC results in the future.

A bit like Roche, VDB significantly underperforms his talent level when it comes to actual wins. Martin has better palmares and is, in my view, a more talented rider but he has yet to show any ability to ride well consistently for three weeks. He may well never show that ability. So specifically when it comes to Grand Tours (which is what you are talking about), I'd rather have my eggs in Van Den Broeck's basket.

Also, slagging off Axel is cheap.

 

[El Pistolero]

Well atleast the Irish have some talents that could do pretty well in future GT's. They have Roche and D.Martin. When was the last time the Belgians had a GT contender or aspiring GT contender? Oh yeah, Axel Merckx, now there's someone who was pretty average.

Haha, what an idiot.

1 Alberto Contador Astana 91u58'48"
2 Andy Schleck Team Saxo Bank op 00'39"
3 Denis Menchov Rabobank op 02'01"
4 Samuel Sánchez Euskaltel-Euskadi op 03'40
5 Jurgen Van den Broeck Omega Pharma-Lotto op 06'54"
6 Robert Gesink Rabobank op 09'31"
7 Ryder Hesjedal Team Garmin op 10'15"
8 Joaquím Rodríguez Katjoesja op 11'37"
9 Roman Kreuziger Liquigas-Doimo op 11'54"
10 Chris Horner Team RadioShack op 12'02"

Besides nationality has nothing to do with this. Roche would still be average if he was Belgian. Yeah, Axel was pretty average as leader. But he sure was one hell of a super domestique in a lot of races And he has a bronze medal at the Olympics

 

[Matty_Tucks]

Monster effort by Gadret in the Giro, surely he'll be cooked after that anyway?

 

[movingtarget]

Yes, the weasel Gadret is no team player but it was a good ride by him in the Giro.

 

[nobilis]

IMO, finishing the best frenchman on the tour is much important than an anonymous 15th place. I live in France and I know how important this is here, especially that there is no frenchman able to challenge for the podium or even a top 5 (unless Coppel , just wishful thinking)

 

[Boeing]

Is Roche even riding this season? Haven't heard a word about the dude

 

[hrotha]

I don't think that the incident is of particular significance a year later (!), but I'm not sure that the orders were particularly daft.
[snip]

You make good points, but the thing is Roche was not much ahead of Gadret in the GC. Much of the different between the two in Paris was due to the final TT. In that context, favouring Roche over Gadret didn't make much sense to me.

 

[Anonymous]

Gadret should be the leader

 

[kurtinsc]

To protect someone's 16th place lol?

I'll go with what Hinault recently said. People don't remember someone coming 15th or something at the Tour, but stage winners are remembered.

I think Roche is a very average cyclist that only gets attention because of his name.

If we assume Roche could have finished where Gadret did if he had gotten the wheel (not sure that's a safe assumption or not) he would have saved nearly 4 minutes of time in the GC. Four spots in the ranking at that point in the race.

If everything after that had been raced the same, he wouldn't have made the top 10... but those 4 minutes at that point would have meant he was in the mix for a top 10.

Many teams do care about top 10 finishes at the Tour.

 

[kurtinsc]

You make good points, but the thing is Roche was not much ahead of Gadret in the GC. Much of the different between the two in Paris was due to the final TT. In that context, favouring Roche over Gadret didn't make much sense to me.

Gadret was 2 minutes behind Roche in the GC after picking up 4 minutes on him during the climb where he refused to give him the wheel. If I remember correctly, Roche was actually ahead when he stopped... so I don't think giving him Gadret's finish had the exchange been made (or he not gotten a flat) is bad for the sake of comparison.

If Roche doesn't get a flat, his 3 minute advantage in the overall would have likely been 7 minutes. Had Gadret given him the wheel and had to wait, it likely would have been 11 minutes.

Roche get's 11th instead of 15th with those 4 minutes. Gadret drops from 19th to 21st without those minutes... and is still the highest placed frenchman by 4 minutes over Moreau.

In retrospect... he should have given up the wheel.

 

[El Pistolero]

I very much doubt this claim that he lost 4 minutes...

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Gadret went hard out at the giro, no way should he be leader.

 

[El Pistolero]

Gadret went hard out at the giro, no way should he be leader.

No way should he help Roche though.

If he has good legs or something that resembles that he should just go out for stage wins and breakaways.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

No way should he help Roche though.

If he has good legs or something that resembles that he should just go out for stage wins and breakaways.

meh if he loses minutes early he should help the team leader.

 

[El Pistolero]

meh if he loses minutes early he should help the team leader.

I agree that he shouldn't ride for GC this Tour, but help his team leader? Why? For a 15th place? That's depressing... For Gadret that is. Winning on Bastille day for example, seems so much more important for a French team than to get in the top 20 with an Irish dude.

 

[kurtinsc]

I very much doubt this claim that he lost 4 minutes...

It happened on stage 15.

For him to have been PASSED by Gadret and not given the wheel... he would have had to be ahead of Gadret... right?

Gadret finished 3:55 back of Voekler on the stage in 18th. Roche finished by himself 7:52 back.

3:57 is pretty close to 4 minutes.


I suppose you can argue that Roche was simply weaker and would still have lost more time even if Gadret had given him the wheel right away... but the fact is he WAS ahead prior to punturing.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I agree that he shouldn't ride for GC this Tour, but help his team leader? Why? For a 15th place? That's depressing... For Gadret that is.

Regardless, a french team would be happy with a top 10-20.
If the team orders are help your leader, he should man up and ride for the team. I dislike his one-man-team attitude. When Menchov was required in the past, he gave up his own aspirations and rode a team role, I can argue he is too good for that. But i admire that he still rode for the team, rather then go on some ego trip.

If he isn't in form, he aint gonna be winning stages anyway, it doesn't work like that. Sastre sucked at giro, we didn't see him getting in the break and owning.

 

[El Pistolero]

It happened on stage 15.

For him to have been PASSED by Gadret and not given the wheel... he would have had to be ahead of Gadret... right?

Gadret finished 3:55 back of Voekler on the stage in 18th. Roche finished by himself 7:52 back.

3:57 is pretty close to 4 minutes.


I suppose you can argue that Roche was simply weaker and would still have lost more time even if Gadret had given him the wheel right away... but the fact is he WAS ahead prior to punturing.

I said, I doubt Roche stood still for 4 minutes waiting for a new wheel.

 

[Irish2009]

As an Irishman I am biased towards Roche, but i'm not blind. Gadret's result in the Giro was excellent, but this may have been his zenith for the year. If I was running Ag2R i would look at a multi leader scenario. Nocenteni, Dupont, Gadret and Roche are similar abilities and all capable of top 15 on GC, but one will be more ahead come the Tour. I'd let the racing decide then get the team to support the 2 strongest on the road.