Rumour: Zomegnan to be fired

[UpTheRoad]

A drop of rain IS bad weather when you're up in the altitudes. The Tour seldom has this problem because of time of year, but sure it does a better job when it does have to deal with it.


So what you're saying is, "live with your lot, don't try and better it, the Tour is better than you, deal with it"? Sounds like a recipe for stagnation. A bit like the Tour, come to think of it.


OK, shorter transfers I get. But shorter stages? There was an 83km stage in 2009. A 100km stage this year. By putting in shorter stages, he can put in longer ones. Super-long epic stages are part of what the Giro is. Maybe another ITT to balance it could have helped; but 2011 is the first 'imbalanced' Giro I've seen since 2004 (which was imbalanced in the opposite direction). 2009 and 2010 a GC guy won the points jersey, sure - but if Tyler Farrar hadn't missed the time cut on Zoncolán it could have been a fight. Bennati won it in 2008. 2008!



OK, so TdF comparison... how often do they do Alpe d'Huez? Last year was the first time they'd EVER gone 2 straight years without it. Tourmalet? Every damn year. The Tour route is far more predictable, perhaps owing to fewer great climbs (but if the race is tight and intense, who cares if they're riding to Cam Basque or Courchevel instead of Alpe d'Huez or Plateau de Beille?), Ventoux is close to the only truly 'special' climb that is climbed rarely enough yet is legendary enough to have that effect. The Giro has only climbed the Passo dello Stelvio 6 times EVER. This is the second time Colle delle Finestre has been used - 6 years after the 1st. Zoncolán is being perhaps a little overused - but remember that Angliru was used regularly at first in order to establish its mystique, before a six year layoff. Zoncolán has the mystique now... so we should have a few years off. But don't you think the same applies to Aspin, to Tourmalet, to Aubisque, to Alpe d'Huez, and all the other climbs we see year in year out in France?

Some climbs are overused, some are underused. I don't see why Zomegnan is doing a worse job than Proudhomme in that respect. At least Zomegnan is seeking out and using climbs the Giro has either not used before (Rifugio Gardeccia) or seldom used before (Finestre) - where are the new climbs in the Tour? When was the last time a truly new climb was introduced to the Tour?

The Giro also doesn't try to minimize the impact of the MTFs it does use. The TdF generally has the routes through one of the ranges set up so there won't be much, if any, time gaps for the GC contenders.

 

[The Hitch]

I agree that the Giro has "its own proud history and traditions" but it is exactly that what Zomeg is destroying IMO by always wanting to go bigger, longer, higher, more extreme, more dangerous ... it is him who wants the Giro to be bigger than the TdF, the biggest sports event on the planet, and he doesn't seem to be satisfied with being a good GT among three, he wants to be the best.

You make it clear that your beef against the Giro is that it is not the Tour.
How bad that the Giro is seducing hardcore cycling fans with its unique appeal.

Dont worry, the Giro is not threatning the Tour's status as the worlds most famous, biggest race etc.

It has a unique appeal and those of us attracted to that would like to do without Tour fanboys telling us the race should be in forcibly weakened because you dont like cycling fans turnng their attention away from July.

THe Tour already has every-other advantage imaginable. Why do you need to crush other races? Its kicking the dog.

Again please forgive the Tdf comparison, but they don't do the Roubaix pavés every year either and that is again part of the reason why it's so special.

It would be even more special if every year the contenders had to fight it out on the cobbles instead of twice since the 80's.

Using your logic, mountains would be way more special if you left out mountain stages for 7 years, had just pan flat TDF's during this time, then brought them back after many years in the wilderness

If you want to deprive yourself of epic climbs and cobbles, dont watch it. Why must all of us endure 20 years of no cobbles just to make them more special for you when they do come around?

 

[Lanark]

I think Zomegnan/Giro have been really succesful in finding new, exciting climbs in the last few years:

2003: Zoncolan from the 'easy' side
2005: Finestre
2006: Kronplatz
2007: Zoncolan difficult side
2010: Monte Crostis

When has the Tour 'discovered' a new, great mountain for the last time?

And that's not even talking about the fantastic mountains they only seem to be doing once every 30 years like the Tre Cime Lavaredo, Monte Grappa, Passo Coe etc. A race needs some recognizable points, no doubt. The Champs-Elysees is such a place, mountains like the Alpe D'huez is it, in the Giro the Mortirolo and Zoncolan had the same role the last couple of years, but they have also had tons of difficult and great MTF that only appeared sporadically.

 

[nvpacchi]

I think Zomegnan/Giro have been really succesful in finding new, exciting climbs in the last few years:

2003: Zoncolan from the 'easy' side
2005: Finestre
2006: Kronplatz
2007: Zoncolan difficult side
2010: Monte Crostis

When has the Tour 'discovered' a new, great mountain for the last time?

And that's not even talking about the fantastic mountains they only seem to be doing once every 30 years like the Tre Cime Lavaredo, Monte Grappa, Passo Coe etc. A race needs some recognizable points, no doubt. The Champs-Elysees is such a place, mountains like the Alpe D'huez is it, in the Giro the Mortirolo and Zoncolan had the same role the last couple of years, but they have also had tons of difficult and great MTF that only appeared sporadically.

Totally agree. Hell the Giro even discovered Les Deux Alpes, using it 4 years before the Tour.

 

[Christian]

You make it clear that your beef against the Giro is that it is not the Tour.
How bad that the Giro is seducing hardcore cycling fans with its unique appeal.

Dont worry, the Giro is not threatning the Tour's status as the worlds most famous, biggest race etc.

It has a unique appeal and those of us attracted to that would like to do without Tour fanboys telling us the race should be in forcibly weakened because you dont like cycling fans turnng their attention away from July.

THe Tour already has every-other advantage imaginable. Why do you need to crush other races? Its kicking the dog.

Lol please tell me you're not one of those "I prefer the Giro to the Tour therefore I am a true cycling fan" people. Many riders and media are very critical of the insanity of this year's route, listening to German Eurosport that's almost all they talk about. Also here in the forum there have been timid attempts to criticize it, but I guess those are not "hardcore cycling fans" like you

 

[Christian]

Using your logic, mountains would be way more special if you left out mountain stages for 7 years, had just pan flat TDF's during this time, then brought them back after many years in the wilderness

Lol classic reducto ad absurdum but when you are ready to have a serious discussion let me know

 

[icefire]

Too many mountains and too few sprints? I don't dislike sprints per se, I just prefer them after some spice in the final kms breaks apart the trains. I'd be fine if the likes of Cavendish go back to the track and their fans go to the track forum where they all belong. Just keep the likes of Pettachi or Freire. Nothing personal, though. If Cavendinsh can do over nasty little climbs and without a train, he'll be welcome.

Talking about the insanity of having occasionally a 200+ km stage with 3+ hard climbs, a former Tour winner now TV commentator has it clear. It's the only way to find the best rider: force them to ride on their own strength without teammates. If it has to be done at an average speed <30km/h so be it.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Best rumour ever. I hope it's true. His ideas kept getting more and more ridiculous. It was always more about the show and the spectaccle than about cycling with him

With all due respect; Wouter etc, the Giro has never interested the Schlecks, so why worry, if your boys are only ever going to send a token team?
Stick to California, be happy and don't worry that the Giro is too tough.

What are the details that matter? Zomegnan was criticised massively for 2004 and 2009, the flattest routes he created. Audience figures are terrible for flat stages, and fans get excited for new and intense mountains. It's no wonder he tends towards tougher routes.

I agree with everything you said, so sorry for questioning this bit.
Wasn't Carmine Castellano still in charge back in 2004, or did Zommy have responsibilty for the route?

 

[Parrulo]

A drop of rain IS bad weather when you're up in the altitudes. The Tour seldom has this problem because of time of year, but sure it does a better job when it does have to deal with it.


So what you're saying is, "live with your lot, don't try and better it, the Tour is better than you, deal with it"? Sounds like a recipe for stagnation. A bit like the Tour, come to think of it.


OK, shorter transfers I get. But shorter stages? There was an 83km stage in 2009. A 100km stage this year. By putting in shorter stages, he can put in longer ones. Super-long epic stages are part of what the Giro is. Maybe another ITT to balance it could have helped; but 2011 is the first 'imbalanced' Giro I've seen since 2004 (which was imbalanced in the opposite direction). 2009 and 2010 a GC guy won the points jersey, sure - but if Tyler Farrar hadn't missed the time cut on Zoncolán it could have been a fight. Bennati won it in 2008. 2008!



OK, so TdF comparison... how often do they do Alpe d'Huez? Last year was the first time they'd EVER gone 2 straight years without it. Tourmalet? Every damn year. The Tour route is far more predictable, perhaps owing to fewer great climbs (but if the race is tight and intense, who cares if they're riding to Cam Basque or Courchevel instead of Alpe d'Huez or Plateau de Beille?), Ventoux is close to the only truly 'special' climb that is climbed rarely enough yet is legendary enough to have that effect. The Giro has only climbed the Passo dello Stelvio 6 times EVER. This is the second time Colle delle Finestre has been used - 6 years after the 1st. Zoncolán is being perhaps a little overused - but remember that Angliru was used regularly at first in order to establish its mystique, before a six year layoff. Zoncolán has the mystique now... so we should have a few years off. But don't you think the same applies to Aspin, to Tourmalet, to Aubisque, to Alpe d'Huez, and all the other climbs we see year in year out in France?

Some climbs are overused, some are underused. I don't see why Zomegnan is doing a worse job than Proudhomme in that respect. At least Zomegnan is seeking out and using climbs the Giro has either not used before (Rifugio Gardeccia) or seldom used before (Finestre) - where are the new climbs in the Tour? When was the last time a truly new climb was introduced to the Tour?

You make it clear that your beef against the Giro is that it is not the Tour.
How bad that the Giro is seducing hardcore cycling fans with its unique appeal.

Dont worry, the Giro is not threatning the Tour's status as the worlds most famous, biggest race etc.

It has a unique appeal and those of us attracted to that would like to do without Tour fanboys telling us the race should be in forcibly weakened because you dont like cycling fans turnng their attention away from July.

THe Tour already has every-other advantage imaginable. Why do you need to crush other races? Its kicking the dog.





It would be even more special if every year the contenders had to fight it out on the cobbles instead of twice since the 80's.

Using your logic, mountains would be way more special if you left out mountain stages for 7 years, had just pan flat TDF's during this time, then brought them back after many years in the wilderness

If you want to deprive yourself of epic climbs and cobbles, dont watch it. Why must all of us endure 20 years of no cobbles just to make them more special for you when they do come around?

i agree 100% with you guys. and now seriously when was the last time the tour presented a new good climb?

 

[roundabout]

i agree 100% with you guys. and now seriously when was the last time the tour presented a new good climb?

2007? Port de Bales.

2009 if Col de Romme is thought of as a separate climb instead of a side road of Col de la Colombiere.

Pailheres is also a very good recent addition.

 

[jens_attacks]

i don't think that will happen.zomegnan is the boss.he can't be touched by those haters.

 

[McLovin]

2007? Port de Bales.

2009 if Col de Romme is thought of as a separate climb instead of a side road of Col de la Colombiere.

Pailheres is also a very good recent addition.

also:
la toussuire - 2006
tignes - 2007
verbier -2009

maybe others.

le: i think you can add st bernards, as there was an almost 40 years break.

 

[Cimber]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last 3 Giro's were focking epic !

Pretty much this

 

[SolitaryShell]

also:
la toussuire - 2006
tignes - 2007
verbier -2009

maybe others.

le: i think you can add st bernards, as there was an almost 40 years break.

You think Verbier and La Toussuire weren't climbed in other major races before the Tour?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

also:
la toussuire - 2006
tignes - 2007
verbier -2009

maybe others.

le: i think you can add st bernards, as there was an almost 40 years break.

Verbier wasn't really a new climb though, for the same reason we can't call the Großglockner a new climb. Sure it may have been the Tour's first visit but the Tour de Suisse and Tour de Romandie have used it before. Same for Prato Nervoso, which had been used in the Giro.

Any advance on Tignes? In the time since Tignes, the Giro has given us the following first-time or long-absence MTFs:
Pescocostanzo
Plan de Corones
Alpe di Siusi
Monte Petrano
Blockhaus
Vesuvio
Etna-Rifugio Sapienza
Rifugio Gardeccia-Val di Fassa

Yes, the Tour has visited some rarely used climbs since (Prato Nervoso, for example) but there feels like there's less variety in Tour routes.

 

[El Pistolero]

Verbier wasn't really a new climb though, for the same reason we can't call the Großglockner a new climb. Sure it may have been the Tour's first visit but the Tour de Suisse and Tour de Romandie have used it before. Same for Prato Nervoso, which had been used in the Giro.

Any advance on Tignes? In the time since Tignes, the Giro has given us the following first-time or long-absence MTFs:
Pescocostanzo
Plan de Corones
Alpe di Siusi
Monte Petrano
Blockhaus
Vesuvio
Etna-Rifugio Sapienza
Rifugio Gardeccia-Val di Fassa

Yes, the Tour has visited some rarely used climbs since (Prato Nervoso, for example) but there feels like there's less variety in Tour routes.

Didn't Eddy Merckx win on the Grossglockner once? So why would anyone think it was new.

Rujano was the succesor of Eddy Merckx at Grossglockner if memory serves correctly.

 

[icefire]

also:
la toussuire - 2006
tignes - 2007
verbier -2009

maybe others.

le: i think you can add st bernards, as there was an almost 40 years break.

Tignes? Go up the north side of dear old Iseran. Somewhere half way to the summit (30 kms out of 48 starting at Bourg St Maurice) take a small road to the right and ride for 3kms. What a find!

Verbier wasn't really a new climb though, for the same reason we can't call the Großglockner a new climb. Sure it may have been the Tour's first visit but the Tour de Suisse and Tour de Romandie have used it before. Same for Prato Nervoso, which had been used in the Giro.

Any advance on Tignes? In the time since Tignes, the Giro has given us the following first-time or long-absence MTFs:
Pescocostanzo
Plan de Corones
Alpe di Siusi
Monte Petrano
Blockhaus
Vesuvio
Etna-Rifugio Sapienza
Rifugio Gardeccia-Val di Fassa

Yes, the Tour has visited some rarely used climbs since (Prato Nervoso, for example) but there feels like there's less variety in Tour routes.

You protected yourself with the 'long-absence MTF'

Rifugio Gardeccia was used in 1976. The winner was another Basque rider:
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=622

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Didn't Eddy Merckx win on the Grossglockner once? So why would anyone think it was new.

Rujano was the succesor of Eddy Merckx at Grossglockner if memory serves correctly.

this is my point. Verbier was mentioned as "new" because the Tour hadn't visited it, but it has been visited by Romandie and the Tour de Suisse. Großglockner may have been used in the Giro before, I didn't bother checking. But even if it hadn't, it's hardly a "new" climb when the Österreichrundfahrt uses it practically every year.

 

[rhubroma]

As far as the organization goes, the Italians have a different sense of organization than everybody else.

My only concern is that the next guy they hire, if this is indeed the case, won't try to "fix" everything taking cues from le Tour.

The Giro needs to be a climbers fest. Ten boring stages that wind up in a sprint, with two 50+k time trials and only 3 MTF's, is for the Tour and I can't handle that more than once a year.

 

[El Pistolero]

this is my point. Verbier was mentioned as "new" because the Tour hadn't visited it, but it has been visited by Romandie and the Tour de Suisse. Großglockner may have been used in the Giro before, I didn't bother checking. But even if it hadn't, it's hardly a "new" climb when the Österreichrundfahrt uses it practically every year.

Well, it's not even a new climb in the Giro

Just checked, it was the Cimma coppi in 1971. But it was also a MTF once that Merckx won, but don't know when.

 

[offbyone]

This is absurdity. Over the last several years I feel like Zomegnan has brought the Giro back into the forefront of grand tour racing to the point that many people say it is a better, tougher and more exciting grand tour than the TdF.

This year has been absolutely spectacular. Every stage has been exciting. There has been actual racing throughout stages, not just a big pack of cyclists cruising for 5 hours before a 5 minute sprint lead out.

The roads that they have ridden are absolutely amazing roads. Beautiful countryside.

The only complaints I have this year is that Contador is so unbelievably good that the last week becomes a bit boring and the camera work needs improvement.

Who are these people, not named cavendish, who want more boring flat sprint stages?

 

[jobiwan]

Who are these people, not named cavendish, who want more boring flat sprint stages?

It might be Guardini, as he and hills seem to be mortal enemies!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It might be Guardini, as he and hills seem to be mortal enemies!

When you're getting dropped by Kenny van Hummel on the climbs, you know you suck.

 

[Mambo95]

Who are these people, not named cavendish, who want more boring flat sprint stages?

OK, here's how it is. France is not Italy. Italy is on or near a plate fault and is far more hilly than France (Italy has volcanoes and earthquakes - France doesn't). They are never too far from a decent hill.

By contrast 60-70% of France is generally pancake flat. The Tour is a part of French heritage so they have to spread it around.

Also, some people will tell you will tell you that a four man breakaway is better than a bunch sprint. It's really not. In the breakaway, either someone will attack with 5k to go while the others look at each other, or the person everyone picked 50k ago wins a really lame sprint. In a bunch sprint you get many teams muscling for position for 15k. It's generally one for the connoisseur.

 

[The Hitch]

OK, here's how it is. France is not Italy. Italy is on or near a plate fault and is far more hilly than France (Italy has volcanoes and earthquakes - France doesn't). They are never too far from a decent hill.

By contrast 60-70% of France is generally pancake flat. The Tour is a part of French heritage so they have to spread it around.

Also, some people will tell you will tell you that a four man breakaway is better than a bunch sprint. It's really not. In the breakaway, either someone will attack with 5k to go while the others look at each other, or the person everyone picked 50k ago wins a really lame sprint. In a bunch sprint you get many teams muscling for position for 15k. It's generally one for the connoisseur.

Maybe. But with breakaways the winner is usually someone for whom a victory is the highlight of their season, often their entire career. That one moment theyve been waiting for some of us its very enjoyable to see what it means to them. The big guys dont tend to get into breakaways.

With sprints its just another guy whose had minimum 10 victories already this season. Another victory for someone who knows exactly what it feels like and is already turning an eye to the next day.

People generally seem to me to support those who are famous. Yey i heard of him i hope he wins.

Me i support underdogs and while i like the sprinters and am happy to see the smiles on their faces, i feel it is much more beautiful when one of the guys who spend all their lives domestiquing for others, get their taste of the champaign.

Thats just me. Each his own.