Ruta del Sol 2017

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Re: Re:

Mr.White said:
DFA123 said:
Alexandre B. said:
This wasn't discussed yesterday but Poels showed why he was the designated leader at Sky.
Not sure he did. Do you mean by finishing behind all the other big GC riders in the TT?

That hardly justifies making Rosa and Landa wait for him and work for him on the previous two hilly stages, when they could have potentially gained time on the climbs.

Poels is 4th, Rosa 5th and Landa 6th overall. I'm not sure a rider finishing one place above two domestiques who had to sacrifice their own ambitions on consecutive stages, has justified his role as leader. Especially considering he hasn't come close to winning a stage either - which Rosa or Landa may well have been able to do.
Where did they sacrifice for Poels? I saw Rosa in the first stage chasing Alberto and Izagirre, not waiting for Poels, and also saw Rosa and Landa in pursuit of Pinot in stage 2, while Poels dropped. Didn't saw anybody sacrifice anything for Poels
Rosa waited for Poels on the first stage when in the front group. Perhaps if he'd have worked a bit they could have put greater distance to Pinot. Then, when Poels rejoined the front group, Rosa went to the front and did all the work - sacrificing any chance of a late attack for a solo stage win. Which would have been more likely than Poels pathetic attempt at a sprint.

The next stage, Landa was sent on a speculative early attack, again setting something up for Poels. He was clearly the strongest climber on Sky that day and probably could have followed Contador's attack (he nearly did despite having already been at the front alone for a while). Meanwhile Poels just kept going backwards. So another possible stage win and potential seconds lost.
 
Re:

roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
Mr.White said:
DFA123 said:
Alexandre B. said:
This wasn't discussed yesterday but Poels showed why he was the designated leader at Sky.
Not sure he did. Do you mean by finishing behind all the other big GC riders in the TT?

That hardly justifies making Rosa and Landa wait for him and work for him on the previous two hilly stages, when they could have potentially gained time on the climbs.

Poels is 4th, Rosa 5th and Landa 6th overall. I'm not sure a rider finishing one place above two domestiques who had to sacrifice their own ambitions on consecutive stages, has justified his role as leader. Especially considering he hasn't come close to winning a stage either - which Rosa or Landa may well have been able to do.
Where did they sacrifice for Poels? I saw Rosa in the first stage chasing Alberto and Izagirre, not waiting for Poels, and also saw Rosa and Landa in pursuit of Pinot in stage 2, while Poels dropped. Didn't saw anybody sacrifice anything for Poels
Rosa waited for Poels on the first stage when in the front group. Perhaps if he'd have worked a bit they could have put greater distance to Pinot. Then, when Poels rejoined the front group, Rosa went to the front and did all the work - sacrificing any chance of a late attack for a solo stage win. Which would have been more likely than Poels pathetic attempt at a sprint.

The next stage, Landa was sent on a speculative early attack, again setting something up for Poels. He was clearly the strongest climber on Sky that day and probably could have followed Contador's attack (he nearly did despite having already been at the front alone for a while). Meanwhile Poels just kept going backwards. So another possible stage win and potential seconds lost.
Landa was sent, or Landa try on his own? That's the question...
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
No, the point of the discussion was who was going to get the best GC result of the 3. Even if the other 2 had complete freedom to ride their race, it's not likely that they would have beaten Poels nor was it a certainty that they would have won a stage.

Also, do you have a source that Landa's attack was just to set up Poels?
 
Re: Re:

roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
No, the point of the discussion was who was going to get the best GC result of the 3. Even if the other 2 had complete freedom to ride their race, it's not likely that they would have beaten Poels nor was it a certainty that they would have won a stage.

Also, do you have a source that Landa's attack was just to set up Poels?
I don't really understand your point. Of course the leader will be best overall in GC, if the other two riders have been domestique for him on two of the stages. The fact is though, that if Poels wasn't there, then Sky would still be at least 4th on GC, possibly even higher if Pinot could have been distanced more and cracked on Stage 1. They might also have a stage win.

Poels hasn't come close to a stage win and hasn't been in contention for GC overall, so, unless something really unexpected happens in the last days, he hasn't really justified his status as leader. Unless you think a team like Sky is happy to finish a best placed 4th (may well have been 5th if Izagirre didnt crash) and win no hilly stages.
 
Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
No, the point of the discussion was who was going to get the best GC result of the 3. Even if the other 2 had complete freedom to ride their race, it's not likely that they would have beaten Poels nor was it a certainty that they would have won a stage.

Also, do you have a source that Landa's attack was just to set up Poels?
I don't really understand your point. Of course the leader will be best overall in GC, if the other two riders have been domestique for him on two of the stages. The fact is though, that if Poels wasn't there, then Sky would still be at least 4th on GC, possibly even higher if Pinot could have been distanced more and cracked on Stage 1. They might also have a stage win.

Poels hasn't come close to a stage win and hasn't been in contention for GC overall, so, unless something really unexpected happens in the last days, he hasn't really justified his status as leader. Unless you think a team like Sky is happy to finish a best placed 4th (may well have been 5th if Izagirre didnt crash) and win no hilly stages.
So you don't have a source for your claim that Landa attacked to set Poels. So no point in writing 2 paragraphs when your argument is based on a claim that your can't back up.

And my point is pretty clear. Poels showed in the ITT that he was the best bet for the overall. Claiming that it was only because the other 2 rode for him is another invention by you.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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Re: Re:

DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
No, the point of the discussion was who was going to get the best GC result of the 3. Even if the other 2 had complete freedom to ride their race, it's not likely that they would have beaten Poels nor was it a certainty that they would have won a stage.

Also, do you have a source that Landa's attack was just to set up Poels?
I don't really understand your point. Of course the leader will be best overall in GC, if the other two riders have been domestique for him on two of the stages. The fact is though, that if Poels wasn't there, then Sky would still be at least 4th on GC, possibly even higher if Pinot could have been distanced more and cracked on Stage 1. They might also have a stage win.

Poels hasn't come close to a stage win and hasn't been in contention for GC overall, so, unless something really unexpected happens in the last days, he hasn't really justified his status as leader. Unless you think a team like Sky is happy to finish a best placed 4th (may well have been 5th if Izagirre didnt crash) and win no hilly stages.
I didn't saw on the road that Poels was the clear leader, nor I heard it or read it anywhere. And where do you think riders like Poels, Rosa or Landa (in his first race of the year) would finish with Contador, Valverde and in shape Pinot as opponents?
 
Re: Re:

roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
No, the point of the discussion was who was going to get the best GC result of the 3. Even if the other 2 had complete freedom to ride their race, it's not likely that they would have beaten Poels nor was it a certainty that they would have won a stage.

Also, do you have a source that Landa's attack was just to set up Poels?
I don't really understand your point. Of course the leader will be best overall in GC, if the other two riders have been domestique for him on two of the stages. The fact is though, that if Poels wasn't there, then Sky would still be at least 4th on GC, possibly even higher if Pinot could have been distanced more and cracked on Stage 1. They might also have a stage win.

Poels hasn't come close to a stage win and hasn't been in contention for GC overall, so, unless something really unexpected happens in the last days, he hasn't really justified his status as leader. Unless you think a team like Sky is happy to finish a best placed 4th (may well have been 5th if Izagirre didnt crash) and win no hilly stages.
So you don't have a source for your claim that Landa attacked to set Poels. So no point in writing 2 paragraphs when your argument is based on a claim that your can't back up.

And my point is pretty clear. Poels showed in the ITT that he was the best bet for the overall. Claiming that it was only because the other 2 rode for him is another invention by you.
Well, that's not what I said, so it's not an invention. My point is simply that Poels, by being a relatively distant 4th overall and not coming close to winning a stage, has not justified his status as leader for a big team like Sky. We'll never know if Landa or Rosa could have done better (if Poels would have done dom work for them) - but given their standing in GC currently, we know they couldn't have done any worse.

Considering his ambition is to lead in a GT, i would say this performance would have convinced no-one within the team that Poels has what it takes.
 
Re: Re:

Mr.White said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
No, the point of the discussion was who was going to get the best GC result of the 3. Even if the other 2 had complete freedom to ride their race, it's not likely that they would have beaten Poels nor was it a certainty that they would have won a stage.

Also, do you have a source that Landa's attack was just to set up Poels?
I don't really understand your point. Of course the leader will be best overall in GC, if the other two riders have been domestique for him on two of the stages. The fact is though, that if Poels wasn't there, then Sky would still be at least 4th on GC, possibly even higher if Pinot could have been distanced more and cracked on Stage 1. They might also have a stage win.

Poels hasn't come close to a stage win and hasn't been in contention for GC overall, so, unless something really unexpected happens in the last days, he hasn't really justified his status as leader. Unless you think a team like Sky is happy to finish a best placed 4th (may well have been 5th if Izagirre didnt crash) and win no hilly stages.
I didn't saw on the road that Poels was the clear leader, nor I heard it or read it anywhere. And where do you think riders like Poels, Rosa or Landa (in his first race of the year) would finish with Contador, Valverde and in shape Pinot as opponents?
It's difficult to say where they should finish. But Izagirre was right up there as well, I'd say the three Sky riders should at least stay with him - especially considering their strength in numbers.

Alternatively, if they knew they didn't have the shape to compete with Valverde and Contador, then why not go all out for a stage win? The way they used Rosa was bizarre in the first stage. Surely having sat on for 10km, once Poels joined, he was in a great position to counter attack and try to get a solo win. Instead he just went to the front and towed the group. While Poels tried to beat Valverde in a sprint :confused:
 
Easily the fastest guy in this field. He had a great year in 2016, actually performing slightly better head-to-head against his compatriots Démare and Bouhanni. Still, I don't know that he even participated in any WT sprints outside the Tour.
 
Re:

jaylew said:
Easily the fastest guy in this field. He had a great year in 2016, actually performing slightly better head-to-head against his compatriots Démare and Bouhanni. Still, I don't know that he even participated in any WT sprints outside the Tour.
He was injured before Paris-Nice last year. He participated in Catalunya back in 2015 but he lost the last stage against an incredible Valverde.
 
Re: Re:

roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
DFA123 said:
roundabout said:
Landa lost more time to Poels in the ITT than he could have speculatively gained on stage 2, so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that Poels hasn't justified his role as a leader. A team with the budget and personnel of Sky would want their leader competing for the overall win in pretty much every race they enter. Finishing a distant 4th and never being in contention isn't really justifying leadership.

And it's not just about the GC. Landa and Rosa both played role of domestique at times when they had potential for a stage win. That's more than worth it if Poels can win the race, or at least come close; but if he finishes a distance 4th - only one place ahead of his team-mates - then it's not worth it.
No, the point of the discussion was who was going to get the best GC result of the 3. Even if the other 2 had complete freedom to ride their race, it's not likely that they would have beaten Poels nor was it a certainty that they would have won a stage.

Also, do you have a source that Landa's attack was just to set up Poels?
I don't really understand your point. Of course the leader will be best overall in GC, if the other two riders have been domestique for him on two of the stages. The fact is though, that if Poels wasn't there, then Sky would still be at least 4th on GC, possibly even higher if Pinot could have been distanced more and cracked on Stage 1. They might also have a stage win.

Poels hasn't come close to a stage win and hasn't been in contention for GC overall, so, unless something really unexpected happens in the last days, he hasn't really justified his status as leader. Unless you think a team like Sky is happy to finish a best placed 4th (may well have been 5th if Izagirre didnt crash) and win no hilly stages.
So you don't have a source for your claim that Landa attacked to set Poels. So no point in writing 2 paragraphs when your argument is based on a claim that your can't back up.

And my point is pretty clear. Poels showed in the ITT that he was the best bet for the overall. Claiming that it was only because the other 2 rode for him is another invention by you.
Sky have lacked flexibility in decision-making this season - Serge Henao has a mechanical not long before the Paracombe climb in Stage 2 of the TDU - Instead of keeping Thomas in the lead group as a second option they called him back to help Henao get back to the peleton - DFA's inference is very likely from watching Stage 1 and 2 of Andalucia.
 
Re: Re:

Alexandre B. said:
jaylew said:
Easily the fastest guy in this field. He had a great year in 2016, actually performing slightly better head-to-head against his compatriots Démare and Bouhanni. Still, I don't know that he even participated in any WT sprints outside the Tour.
He was injured before Paris-Nice last year. He participated in Catalunya back in 2015 but he lost the last stage against an incredible Valverde.
I wonder if he could win Amstel this year? Guess it depends on how hard the racing is but it could come down to a sprint against guys like Matthews.

Assuming his team has been invited, that is.
 
Re: Re:

jaylew said:
Alexandre B. said:
jaylew said:
Easily the fastest guy in this field. He had a great year in 2016, actually performing slightly better head-to-head against his compatriots Démare and Bouhanni. Still, I don't know that he even participated in any WT sprints outside the Tour.
He was injured before Paris-Nice last year. He participated in Catalunya back in 2015 but he lost the last stage against an incredible Valverde.
I wonder if he could win Amstel this year? Guess it depends on how hard the racing is but it could come down to a sprint against guys like Matthews.

Assuming his team has been invited, that is.
With the new route change he will be one of the big favourites. His team will definitely get invited.
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
Sky have lacked flexibility in decision-making this season - Serge Henao has a mechanical not long before the Paracombe climb in Stage 2 of the TDU - Instead of keeping Thomas in the lead group as a second option they called him back to help Henao get back to the peleton - DFA's inference is very likely from watching Stage 1 and 2 of Andalucia.
Thomas wasn't called back, and he didn't have the condition to be a second option anyway.
 
Re:

portugal11 said:
Pinot did third in tour 2014 only because the field was garbage. He did top 10 in other editions only because sky (and other teams) left him go because he was far behind. Bar 2014 he never was able to follow his gc rivals consistently. For me he won't be able to finish in top 5 in giro
The '14 field was great, most of the favorites went down, but that's racing. Valverde finished 4th BTW. Yes, free of Quintana, Valverde was beat by Tibopino. You should have watched the '14 TdF and you would know what you're talking about.

Type in your browser "Thibaut Pinot the rise of a champion" and see for yourself. Courtesy of Tonton Sport Organization (TSO). Enjoy :) .
 

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