Ryder's blood

[Dear Wiggo]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...h-paid-off-for-ryder-hesjedal/article4217477/

“We’d get some strange looks, this Swiss guy taking our blood,” said Kabush in an interview Monday from New Mexico, where he is training, remembering work as a teenager with Hesjedal and Feldmann.

The article above triggers red flags for me. I was attempting to communicate that intuition.

 

[WinterRider]

Shoot first, ask questions later?

Check your inbox. All your questions answered. Though, perhaps not the answer that your rosy glasses are looking for.

Think of an iceberg. What I haven't said is 10x more than what I have.

Dave.

Why don't you stop being coy and just share what you know here in the open. I'd like to know.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Now add the rumour (?) that Ryder had his own centrifuge later on in his MTB life.

 

[D-Queued]

Where are you guys getting this info.? The (junior) national team was doping it's riders? I never saw it, granted I'm 9 yrs. older than Ryder but that would be on helluva' culture change.
It was all innocent fun in Canada, from my experience.

Ah, the Massacre of the Innocents.

A picture which hangs in the Art Gallery of Ontario of all places.

Dave.

 

[RetroActive]

+1. As a coach, he seems to have little knowledge of this.

Granted, having had a lactate test in Russia where a razor blade was the standard method to draw blood, there are different approaches going around, so maybe in Canada they use a full needle (the only blood I had drawn in Canada was with a vaccutainer, which did involve a needle - but was for acetylcholinesterase activity testing, not for lactate - so maybe it's possible by very unlikely).

If there's any validity to this innocuous, vapid story at all I would suggest his coach, while in the forest apparently, the method would be a finger ***.
This has turned ludicrous.

 

[RetroActive]

Ah, the Massacre of the Innocents.

A picture which hangs in the Art Gallery of Ontario of all places.

Dave.

Looks European.

 

[peterst6906]

If there's any validity to this innocuous, vapid story at all I would suggest his coach, while in the forest apparently, the method would be a finger ***.
This has turned ludicrous.

Typically with a Lancet.

Based on DWs info though we should probably assume all diabetics are one step away from a drug habit, since a *** on the finger is apparently one step away from PEDs for athletes.

PS. My last sentence is a ridiculous and absolutely dumb conclusion. There is no causitive link between lactate testing one day and PED use the next, just in the same way that diabetics are no more likely to be drug dependent (illegal drugs, not insulin) than anyone else is society.

 

[Buffalo]

Now add the rumour (?) that Ryder had his own centrifuge later on in his MTB life.

Why don't you stop being coy and just share what you know here in the open. I'd like to know.

Yes, quit Dry Ratting these guys out and just post your info man!

 

[D-Queued]

Yes, quit Dry Ratting these guys out and just post your info man!

Why?

Ryder has a past. He also has a future.

He almost certainly does not have an SOL issue. So what may be in his past, may now be too long past.

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Huntelk and Buffalo. Katunka next?

 

[jfromm]

Unless I misunderstood the nature of a pass,


Apparently you were too far away from the action in Ottawa to know what was going on.

Dave.

I won't comment on Symmetrics -- I should have said that in Canada they normally get a pass. You seem to have much better information than I do.

On Fraser I'm much closer than you think. Landis did say he came back from Europe because he didn't like the needles. Left open the possibility of something happening in Europe. His time in North America is another story and is presumed clean.

 

[Master50]

I dunno. But, you certainly don't appear to have much information.

Dave.

maybe you think you have it? maybe you can type it out in short sentences so I get it?


Wiggo is calling out Ryder's coach for lactate testing? Are you kidding? I knew 2 guys working on projects at UVIC that were lactate testing everyone. It was like they learned some new fantastic method of direct fitness testing and no one could wait to get it done. ouch. Every cat 3 and wannabe was getting lt tested as were about as many triathletes as I knew then.

Retro I see you know the players but my point about these two in North America is without the Euros to compare them to it was hard to match them to a world system. My first real indication of Ryder's talent as at burnt bridge. Ryder raced junior and at the finish he was within seconds of the same gap to the elites where Roland was racing. I believe the start gap was 3 minutes. Maybe Roland was not going full gas but it looked more like he could go very fast too.

Ryder came pretty late to the road and in fact I never thought of him in that context. I kept wishing that Roland would go back to road. So I disagree that Ryder was not subject to the same pressures to cheat than if he was in Europe or came to road earlier.

This is really enough. There is nothing in this thread beyond weak links and shaky conclusions. There are some here that acknowledging that a rider can win a GT without doping would shake them. Why? maybe because some could not make it so it become their sour grapes?

 

[Buffalo]

Why?

Ryder has a past. He also has a future.

He almost certainly does not have an SOL issue. So what may be in his past, may now be too long past.

Dave.

I'm just curious because you keep saying stuff without actually saying anything. Why say anything at all of your only going to say this much?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wiggo is calling out Ryder's coach for lactate testing? Are you kidding?

Read the article, then get back to me.

 

[jam pants]

Ryder and EPO? Say it ain't so!

Some seriously naive Canucks in this thread.

 

[D-Queued]

Ryder and EPO? Say it ain't so!

Some seriously naive Canucks in this thread.

Canada is as clean as they come. It isn't limited to cycling. There has never been any athlete that has tested positive in Canada.

Dave.

 

[RetroActive]

Read the article, then get back to me.

I read the article, so what? There was nothing extraordinary hinted at. They had a coach that was into scientific monitoring and some funky cardio gadget, and then?
Here's the thing, I highly, highly doubt that these guys were up to anything nefarious as teenagers in B.C.. Possible but seriously doubtful. When they met the wider world of international competition in the 90's, entirely probable they were onboard for the ride. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about them.
You just don't understand the backwater culture they came from. We weren't totally naive as to what was going on in Europe, or bigger races in N.A. for that matter, and I'm not suggesting it was lily white here either but on the whole one could compete, and succeed, clean. At least through the amateur ranks. The talent shone through easily.
I (for ex.) went to Europe in '90 to see what was what, got the ultimatum from the team (amateurs), held the vial in my hand and thought "this isn't fun anymore". I walked away, others (I personally know) didn't.
The '90's were what they were, through to today. I suspect it's a lot better now but that mindset doesn't just magically vanish. Everyone has been looking for an advantage forever, nothing new.
Did Ryder win the Giro clean? I have no idea. I have some idea of the mindset(culture) he started from, and the mindset(culture) he would have encountered on his rise, the choices he would have faced. That he's still around speaks volumes to me about his past choices but that's just me. I gave it all up in '91 as the writing was on the wall.
I have no sour grapes, there were more talented riders I was aware of that gave up too. I`m also under no delusions. C`est la vie. Life goes on.

 

[Athame]

There are some here that acknowledging that a rider can win a GT without doping would shake them. Why? [My emphasis]

___________________ that question is similar to one I've been stuck with for years.

 

[juiced]

Canada is as clean as they come. It isn't limited to cycling. There has never been any athlete that has tested positive in Canada.

Dave.

Check Your PMs Dave Thanks Byron

 

[D-Queued]

Check Your PMs Dave Thanks Byron

Got it.

I should add the following - well outside of some of the folks being discussed here:

Back in October, I happened to meet someone that had been on the Canadian National Cycling Team in the 1980s.

He had also done some racing in Europe.

He was very candid, and bluntly disclosed that he was tired of the needles and that was a reason that he had left.

He was clearly implicating himself in that statement.

I add this because Michael Barry and GJ aside, we should not assume that Canadians are all Dudley Do Rights.

Not everyone is doing it, but there are more than you might imagine.

Dave.

 

[jfromm]

Got it.


I add this because Michael Barry and GJ aside, we should not assume that Canadians are all Dudley Do Rights.

Not everyone is doing it, but there are more than you might imagine.

Dave.

I don't think any Canadian with any knowledge of the sport (or any sport) would assume that. In my discussions with those in the know the last Canadian rider of any stature to avoid any form of suspicion is Jocelyn Lovell -- rendered a quadripalegic in an accident in 1983 -- poetry in motion to anyone who ever saw him ride.

http://cyclingmagazine.ca/2010/11/sections/feature/jocelyn-lovell-canadas-first-cycling-icon/

 

[D-Queued]

I don't think any Canadian with any knowledge of the sport (or any sport) would assume that. In my discussions with those in the know the last Canadian rider of any stature to avoid any form of suspicion is Jocelyn Lovell -- rendered a quadripalegic in an accident in 1983 -- poetry in motion to anyone who ever saw him ride.

http://cyclingmagazine.ca/2010/11/sections/feature/jocelyn-lovell-canadas-first-cycling-icon/

Agreed. And, I love his four steps to winning.

25% Show up
50% Start
75% Finish
100% Win

I'm an automatic for 25%. Sometimes I even stretch it to half way.

Dave.

 

[Ripper]

And curiously, his coach at that time had no qualms jabbing him with a needle, regardless of who was watching, out there in the middle of the woods, for lactate testing.

The same coach who is keeping the 40 year old Geoff Kabush close to the top of the heap.

Having worked with Juerg, I gotta say he is a different bird and it sounds like him. But i'd not be worried about lactate testing and it being a gateway to anything.

 

[blackcat]

Got it.

I should add the following - well outside of some of the folks being discussed here:

Back in October, I happened to meet someone that had been on the Canadian National Cycling Team in the 1980s.

He had also done some racing in Europe.

He was very candid, and bluntly disclosed that he was tired of the needles and that was a reason that he had left.

He was clearly implicating himself in that statement.

I add this because Michael Barry and GJ aside, we should not assume that Canadians are all Dudley Do Rights.

Not everyone is doing it, but there are more than you might imagine.

Dave.

Peter Mazur definitely not.

Reckon his clean baseline power tests would put him on par with Millar and Boonen. And he had the pleasure of rooming with Ricco at the Giro. (serious)


take a look at the prologue of Dauphine in 06. The first clean rider is Mazur. Hushovd wins the Tour prologue within a month, Wiggins is behind him too (not clean then neither), Hesjedal, Barry, making up numbers

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.35.84 (53.509 km/h)
2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.01.88
3 Stuart O'grady (Aus) Team CSC 0.06.07
4 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06.91
5 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 0.07.35
6 Stijn Devolder (Bel) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.40
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.07.61
8 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.70
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.08.00
10 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Würth 0.08.19
11 Peter Mazur (Can) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.08.50
12 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 0.08.96
13 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.01
14 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 0.09.32
15 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Würth 0.09.62
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.67
17 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.10.26
18 Manuel Quinziato (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.37
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.46
20 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0.10.99
21 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 0.11.02
22 Ronny Scholz (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.11.06
23 Thomas Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.23
24 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux 0.11.30
25 Erik Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.34
26 Didier Rous (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 0.11.35
27 Michael Barry (Can) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.11.39

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I have looked at that list for a specific name, but to see Ryder there, when he was at Phonak, beating Wiggins by 1.5 seconds over 4.1km, the distance where Wiggins was undisputed track king. Where Wiggins had a team of soigneurs dedicated to him and him alone to win that prologue.

Sitting up and taking notice.