Ryder's blood

[silverrocket]

An evasive answer, couched in caveats, is revealing, in the sense that it implicitly confirms RH's dirty past without explicitly saying so. If you can't or won't give a direct answer there is normally a reason for that.

I completely disagree with your interpretation of JVs answer. I thought it was perfectly clear and not evasive at all. He said the data said Ryder didn't dope while on his team, added that his own perception/belief was that Ryder was clean during that time. The only "caveat" is that he only referred to Ryder's time on his team, not earlier in his career. This is not being evasive, it is knowing the limits of what he can confidently comment on: he was not a witness, nor did he have data, for Ryder's earlier career. It would have been meaningless for him to comment on that period, so he did not, yet for this you make the outrageous claim that this means he is "implying" that Ryder was dirty during that time.

If we are going to make assumptions on Ryder's pre-Garmin career it would be most logical to conclude that JV had confidence that Ryder was clean, otherwise he would not have signed him in the first place.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

I completely disagree with your interpretation of JVs answer. I thought it was perfectly clear and not evasive at all. He said the data said Ryder didn't dope while on his team, added that his own perception/belief was that Ryder was clean during that time. The only "caveat" is that he only referred to Ryder's time on his team, not earlier in his career. This is not being evasive, it is knowing the limits of what he can confidently comment on: he was not a witness, nor did he have data, for Ryder's earlier career. It would have been meaningless for him to comment on that period, so he did not, yet for this you make the outrageous claim that this means he is "implying" that Ryder was dirty during that time.

If we are going to make assumptions on Ryder's pre-Garmin career it would be most logical to conclude that JV had confidence that Ryder was clean, otherwise he would not have signed him in the first place.

....eeeeehhh. Not so much. His MTB days were highly suspicious along with several other Canadian riders who were top 10 WC contenders.

 

[D-Queued]

....eeeeehhh. Not so much. His MTB days were highly suspicious along with several other Canadian riders who were top 10 WC contenders.

For Ryder, it is simple.

The timeline is demarcated as BC and AD.

Before being Clean; After doping and moving to Garmin.

Dave.

 

[Cloxxki]

JV was happy to accidentally kick 3 ex-posties out of the closet while they were on his team. Exposing them as confirmed ex-dopers.
Ryder though, the late-postie was winning for him.
After Postal, Phonak. Hmm...

 

[sniper]

JV was happy to accidentally kick 3 ex-posties out of the closet while they were on his team. Exposing them as confirmed ex-dopers.
Ryder though, the late-postie was winning for him.
After Postal, Phonak. Hmm...

yup.
smell the coffee.

 

[goggalor]

JV was happy to accidentally kick 3 ex-posties out of the closet while they were on his team. Exposing them as confirmed ex-dopers.
Ryder though, the late-postie was winning for him.
After Postal, Phonak. Hmm...

Outing Zabriskie, Vandevelde and Danielson was damage control, if they weren't about to be banned by USADA Vaughters would've gladly kept his mouth shut.

 

[tofino]

Canuck

I'm not able to answer your rhetorics. Then again, why didn't Hesjedal take the chance to talk about the past (until 2006...!), get his 6 months and move on to be a good guy?

Would JV accept a high profile ri(y)der putting his team into danger? Would the other riders? Dunno about the team internals, that's why I'm asking.

Ryder is Canadian so USADA deals to other riders are not important.

 

[hrotha]

Ryder is Canadian so USADA deals to other riders are not important.

Michael Barry is Canadian too.

 

[blackcat]

Apparently Ryder has seen Jesus after coming to Garmin. Riding clean clearly gave him wings in 2012

poses the question, on the separation of church and sport.

McQuaid said Jesus has no place in cycling

 

[ElChingon]

Outing Zabriskie, Vandevelde and Danielson was damage control, if they weren't about to be banned by USADA Vaughters would've gladly kept his mouth shut.

I think you meant "conveniently" instead of gladly. He'd of sat on it forever if not for others forcing his hand. Same for the rest of the six-monthians.

 

[Master50]

....eeeeehhh. Not so much. His MTB days were highly suspicious along with several other Canadian riders who were top 10 WC contenders.

at 16 Ryder was killing everyone but Roland. He was a step higher than most and he still is. He lost a lot of roady time and switched to road pretty late. His skills needed development. positioning and tactics too. I think his Giro win is real and no surprise to those that saw him as a youth.

 

[Master50]

Not good to hear. I was a fan. He's built much like I am, and at the Lugano (2003?) world championships he was clearly climbing better than Meirhaeghe, just losing time crashing on basically every descend, having too tiny wheels for a tall rider on a course like that. The long Fischer sure was a slight improvement over other brands, but still, he looked so awkward over any sort of bump. And I know how it with with such a high seat position.
Explains why it took so much time to make it on the road, there everybody was on better programs already.

So he's lying to his boss, or is the boss just full of crab?

you understand that most of the regular clinic forumites are entrenched in their illness. We all know they say the riders are all dopers.
Ryder is a credible winner. He has always had a big engine albeit he can't accelerate to save his life. His talent is consistency and a strong 3rd week.

 

[the delgados]

you understand that most of the regular clinic forumites are entrenched in their illness. We all know they say the riders are all dopers.
Ryder is a credible winner. He has always had a big engine albeit he can't accelerate to save his life. His talent is consistency and a strong 3rd week.

You're kidding, right?

 

[blackcat]

Which would imply in JV 'read between the lines speak' that he knows that Ryder was dirty earlier in his career.

JV could have come out very clearly and said 'I've spoken to Ryder about his previous teams and asked him whether he was involved in doping. He has said he wasn't.'

The fact that JV can't give a straight answer is revealing.

'All of my knowledge, I believe, according to the available data'

= not incosistent with being clean. and the double negative allows a wriggle room that a heavy wheeler could drive thru.

ofcourse, then you could parse the definition of

C
L
E
A
N O T N O R M A L

 

[blackcat]

you understand that most of the regular clinic forumites are entrenched in their illness. We all know they say the riders are all dopers.
Ryder is a credible winner. He has always had a big engine albeit he can't accelerate to save his life. His talent is consistency and a strong 3rd week.

the euphemism is The Clinic 12

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I completely disagree with your interpretation of JVs answer. I thought it was perfectly clear and not evasive at all. He said the data said Ryder didn't dope while on his team, added that his own perception/belief was that Ryder was clean during that time. The only "caveat" is that he only referred to Ryder's time on his team, not earlier in his career. This is not being evasive, it is knowing the limits of what he can confidently comment on: he was not a witness, nor did he have data, for Ryder's earlier career. It would have been meaningless for him to comment on that period, so he did not, yet for this you make the outrageous claim that this means he is "implying" that Ryder was dirty during that time.

EXCEPT: JV has told us more than once that he gets all his riders to talk to him AND WADA / USADA / whoever when they join the team.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Fact: When Ryder was on the Gary Fisher Subaru mtb bike team in the early 2000s he sometimes traveled with a portable centrifuge. He and world champ Roland Green were good friends, and likely charging. Other's from the Canadian mtb program of that era are Seamus McGrath (high hematocrit mandatory cool off), and Chris Sheapeard (EPO+ later in the 2000s).

Can you provide a source for this? I read something similiar in another forum.

I have a major problem with the Ryder win and JV's weak attempt to justify the BP values recorded for Ryder leading up to and during the Giro.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

at 16 Ryder was killing everyone but Roland. He was a step higher than most and he still is. He lost a lot of roady time and switched to road pretty late. His skills needed development. positioning and tactics too. I think his Giro win is real and no surprise to those that saw him as a youth.

And curiously, his coach at that time had no qualms jabbing him with a needle, regardless of who was watching, out there in the middle of the woods, for lactate testing.

The same coach who is keeping the 40 year old Geoff Kabush close to the top of the heap.

 

[blackcat]

rick crawfrord like to spin

 

[northstar]

EXCEPT: JV has told us more than once that he gets all his riders to talk to him AND WADA / USADA / whoever when they join the team.

That's not exactly what JV said.

JV quotes:
"I've spoken to all my riders regards to their past."
"If anyone on my team is asked any questions about past doping, by an authority, they are obliged, by their employer to be honest. Policy isn't just for ex-usps riders."

So the riders disclose their past when they join the team and the riders are required to talk to the authorities if they are approached by the authorities.

If you have other quotes, please correct me.

 

[D-Queued]

That's not exactly what JV said.

JV quotes:
"I've spoken to all my riders regards to their past."
"If anyone on my team is asked any questions about past doping, by an authority, they are obliged, by their employer to be honest. Policy isn't just for ex-usps riders."

So the riders disclose their past when they join the team and the riders are required to talk to the authorities if they are approached by the authorities.

If you have other quotes, please correct me.

Correct.

JV does not require them to visit the authorities, but to be truthful should the authorities visit.

Dave.

 

[ElChingon]

That's not exactly what JV said.

JV quotes:

So the riders disclose their past when they join the team and the riders are required to talk to the authorities if they are approached by the authorities.

The Garmin Loophole, should be worded as, if your past transgressions endanger the team you must talk otherwise SOS.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That's not exactly what JV said.

JV quotes:
"I've spoken to all my riders regards to their past."
"If anyone on my team is asked any questions about past doping, by an authority, they are obliged, by their employer to be honest. Policy isn't just for ex-usps riders."

So the riders disclose their past when they join the team and the riders are required to talk to the authorities if they are approached by the authorities.

If you have other quotes, please correct me.

I cannot find where he said it, but the following quotes reflect my understanding:

Didn't JV come on here and say ex-dopers had to spill the beans to WADA before signing with Garmin?

I thought he was required to fully cooperate with WADA before signing for Garmin?

He was, but there were legal limits he had to abide by, as he signed a severance w Rabo. Apart from that the WADA rep was really only interested in current doping events, which Thomas didn't have much, considering he'd just come back from a ban.

I think the reason JV tells me to study up when I question his testing protocols for the French amateur team rider is because he has a doctor do the testing, and does not actually understand himself why or how it proves said rider is clean. He said the same thing about Ryder's retics jumping during the day (ie I should study up on it), as well as trying on some dubious "reasons" - like hypoxia from a ~30 minute TT or a ~40 minute climb the day before.

So if you have someone (Ryder + centrifuge in MTB days) with a lot of experience at monitoring their own blood parameters, perhaps something they learnt as young as 16 in the woods, with coach Juergen, spending a bit of time with squeaky clean teams (Rabo, USPS, Disco, Healthnet) and not being tainted by their doping practices at all.

I am pretty confident that type of rider could fool JV.

When you look at Millar's data and what happened to him in 2008, the 2012 Ryder data looks even more interesting.

I quintuple dare them to release BP data for the last 5 years.

 

[jfromm]

Canadians

Barry has admitted to being a doper. The mountain bikers Roland Green and Sheppard are a given as abusers. The jury is out on Hesjedal. Anyone who was on Symmetrics whether Roadie or mountain biker is given a pass -- that includes Tuft (sorry Dqueued) and Kabush despite the good records. Of other recent retirees Gord Fraser is problematic -- Landis gives him a pass --- Adam Myerson says a doper. I'm in his home town of Ottawa and from what I know I would say not. The recent comments of the President of Cycling Canada on the local program of a national TV network. Can anything be read into who he doesn't mention?

http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/john+tolkamp/video.html?v=2327250866

 

[Athame]

you understand that most of the regular clinic forumites are entrenched in their illness. We all know they say the riders are all dopers.

___________________ lmao! :d