Ryder's blood

[blackcat]

Wiggins and the British track team were always dirty way before hayles.


he was doping then. just not as much.


and it is silly to extrapolate the pursuit on the track, such an event of weak depth. no one riders it.

cancellara and phinney could go under 4 minutes for the 4k. Wiggins pb is 4'15"

 

[Ferminal]

You mean under 4'10, right? Phinney's PB is like a 4'14".

 

[RetroActive]

The first clean rider is Mazur.

How in the world are you qualifying Mazur as clean? I seriously doubt anyone at that level hasn't felt a needle or two.
Could be wrong, just curious.

 

[blackcat]

You mean under 4'10, right? Phinney's PB is like a 4'14".

Phinney at 19yo went 1'01" in the kilo.

Hoy woulda been doing about 1'04" at that age.

Phinney's pb is about 4'13" I think

 

[blackcat]

How in the world are you qualifying Mazur as clean? I seriously doubt anyone at that level hasn't felt a needle or two.
Could be wrong, just curious.

conversations

 

[RetroActive]

conversations

Of course, it's settled then.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

conversations

I would like to see your comment to someone that used that argument to defend someone else like Froome.

 

[blackcat]

i would like to see your comment to someone that used that argument to defend someone else like froome.

not normal

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

not normal

Well, I did ask I suppose.

 

[Random Direction]

While we are heaping on Canadians, I'd like to know more how clean Ironman Hawaii was during and before Lance's years. Gotta think that the same stuff was going around.

 

[Ferminal]

Phinney at 19yo went 1'01" in the kilo.

Hoy woulda been doing about 1'04" at that age.

Phinney's pb is about 4'13" I think

Yeh but as far as I know no one has ever done a sub-minute split in a 4km. Sub-4' would be impossible under current rules imo (even in ideal conditions). Would have to do something like 62" 59" 59" 60"... think Bobridge managed one 62" in his WR.

 

[RetroActive]

.
I add this because Michael Barry and GJ aside, we should not assume that Canadians are all Dudley Do Rights.

Not everyone is doing it, but there are more than you might imagine.

Dave.

More than who might imagine? More than you might imagine? I'm under no delusions or illusions, I can assure you.

Having lurked awhile I've seen a forum member name (he doesn't post often) that could tell you stories, but I'll leave that to him, should he choose to.

 

[D-Queued]

Blackcat,

No, I wasn't referring to Mazur.

While we are heaping on Canadians, I'd like to know more how clean Ironman Hawaii was during and before Lance's years. Gotta think that the same stuff was going around.

I think that there was one year ~ 5 years ago where 2-3 of the top 5 tested positive.

Dave.

 

[Random Direction]

...
I think that there was one year ~ 5 years ago where 2-3 of the top 5 tested positive.

Dave.

A good plot of bike and run speeds for the top 3 over time would do the trick as well. Point is that there was a whole heap of top level cyclists and triathletes training in the same area at the same time where Ryder grew up. Most of the male ones named in this thread. Maybe there isn't anything too it, maybe there is. I personally hope there isn't, but after a quote from a junior cyclist in Ottawa in 1988 "we all do stuff, you guys want us to perform" I'm not so sure.

 

[blackcat]

Bobridge is no Cancellara or Phinney.


Like the Teams Pursuit about a decade ago, almost became a sprint event, and Turbo Durbidge failed to hit the wattage in training.

Phinney and Cancellara would have in them a kilo under a minute at sea level. standing start.

Obviously, I am bullish on Phinney and Cancellara's ability.

 

[RetroActive]

A good plot of bike and run speeds for the top 3 over time would do the trick as well. Point is that there was a whole heap of top level cyclists and triathletes training in the same area at the same time where Ryder grew up. Most of the male ones named in this thread. Maybe there isn't anything too it, maybe there is. I personally hope there isn't, but after a quote from a junior cyclist in Ottawa in 1988 "we all do stuff, you guys want us to perform" I'm not so sure.

If you want to start digging dirt in the (early) Vic. Tri. community then Pat Kelly is the name you'll come across, I doubt you'll find much but who knows. Erik Myliimaki was junior world champ in '91. I knew him from swimming much earlier. Any dirt there, who knows, doubt it. He quit. Whitfield came later.

"but after a quote from a junior cyclist in Ottawa in 1988 "we all do stuff, you guys want us to perform" I'm not so sure"

I can tell you with some authority, as I was a junior in '88 doing national team projects, that we all didn't "do stuff". I never saw anything, or did anything - do vitamin pills count? Whatever, wingnuts all around.

 

[Ferminal]

Obviously, I am bullish on Phinney and Cancellara's ability.

Understatement?

They would have to be 5% better than the average world beating times of Boardman, McGree, Wiggins, Thomas, Bobridge, Hepburn.

With Rominger-esque preparation and an illegal position I'm sure they could do it.

 

[blackcat]

Understatement?

They would have to be 5% better than the average world beating times of Boardman, McGree, Wiggins, Thomas, Bobridge, Hepburn.

With Rominger-esque preparation and an illegal position I'm sure they could do it.

nah, just a heated Adelaide velodrome in Jan.

I reckon that is worth C6 secs?

 

[Master50]

Read the article, then get back to me.

I finally followed that link and so what. This is what I have already heard. Certainly to a casual observer taking a lactate test looks like they are taking something as much as it looks like they are giving a sample. I get that it looks out of propriety it is not a doctor's office or clinical setting but this was at 1 time such a rage in the coaching community that more than 1 rider was a pin cushion for more than 1 coach. You know Victoria has a lot of good coachig programs and the rowing centre was testing rowers. the triathletes, the cyclists, runners, etc. They were cross sports testing too IE cycling coaching students worked a bit with the rowers etc.
I was offered lactate testing several times but I am talentless so I panned. In retrospect it might have revealed a circulatory issue i had?
This is evidence that you have a furtive and dirty mind. You see evil where only incongruity exists. This is a non story.

 

[mtb Dad]

I read the article, so what? There was nothing extraordinary hinted at. They had a coach that was into scientific monitoring and some funky cardio gadget, and then?
Here's the thing, I highly, highly doubt that these guys were up to anything nefarious as teenagers in B.C.. Possible but seriously doubtful. When they met the wider world of international competition in the 90's, entirely probable they were onboard for the ride. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about them.
You just don't understand the backwater culture they came from. We weren't totally naive as to what was going on in Europe, or bigger races in N.A. for that matter, and I'm not suggesting it was lily white here either but on the whole one could compete, and succeed, clean. At least through the amateur ranks. The talent shone through easily.
I (for ex.) went to Europe in '90 to see what was what, got the ultimatum from the team (amateurs), held the vial in my hand and thought "this isn't fun anymore". I walked away, others (I personally know) didn't.
The '90's were what they were, through to today. I suspect it's a lot better now but that mindset doesn't just magically vanish. Everyone has been looking for an advantage forever, nothing new.
Did Ryder win the Giro clean? I have no idea. I have some idea of the mindset(culture) he started from, and the mindset(culture) he would have encountered on his rise, the choices he would have faced. That he's still around speaks volumes to me about his past choices but that's just me. I gave it all up in '91 as the writing was on the wall.
I have no sour grapes, there were more talented riders I was aware of that gave up too. I`m also under no delusions. C`est la vie. Life goes on.

Except for the 30 young dutch and belgian guys, and almost manzano. I think this is missing the point of the current debate. It's not so much that riders have given in to temptation, it is: 'what was wrong with the system that allowed it'? If we don't find out, we're condemned to repeat it. I know 20 something's are pretty sure they are in control, but they're not really. There are lots of possible, and fixable aspects to doping.

Bassons has pointed to the winner take all approach of coverage and awards. There were unethical docs making huge money to propose and supply. There were incompetent or corrupt administrators who looked away (still looking away according to Ashendon) or worse.

Some dopers figured out it was a dead end (no pun intended) and have chosen to help clean it up, either publicly or behind the scenes. Others somehow think it was ok as long as no one finds out.

It may be a cliche, but you're either part of the solution, or part of the problem.

 

[RetroActive]

Except for the 30 young dutch and belgian guys, and almost manzano. I think this is missing the point of the current debate. It's not so much that riders have given in to temptation, it is: 'what was wrong with the system that allowed it'? If we don't find out, we're condemned to repeat it. I know 20 something's are pretty sure they are in control, but they're not really. There are lots of possible, and fixable aspects to doping.

Bassons has pointed to the winner take all approach of coverage and awards. There were unethical docs making huge money to propose and supply. There were incompetent or corrupt administrators who looked away (still looking away according to Ashendon) or worse.

Some dopers figured out it was a dead end (no pun intended) and have chosen to help clean it up, either publicly or behind the scenes. Others somehow think it was ok as long as no one finds out.

It may be a cliche, but you're either part of the solution, or part of the problem.

If you learn how to adjust (I was going to say impose) morals and ethics in/upon others, correct greed, corruption, and human ego you best share it. The world has been waiting for you! The same problems are expressed in virtually every human pursuit at this point, you have a big job.

As for me, I do things according to my own criteria. If someone presents a circumstance I don't want to be part of, I leave. If that's being part of the problem so be it. Ultimately it's individuals that make the choices, there are always choices.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I finally followed that link and so what. This is what I have already heard.
...
This is evidence that you have a furtive and dirty mind. You see evil where only incongruity exists. This is a non story.

Furtive and dirty?

And perhaps it shows yours is completely trusting.

“It’s amazing, the levels I’ve been able to train at,” Kabush said.

How about this? Does this sound like another "so what" article?

In 2003, at only 30 years old, Jonathan decided to step away from a successful, but tough professional cycling career. He was perhaps young to retire, but clearly had maximized his abilities at a somewhat earlier age than most through ground-breaking training techniques, and extreme focus. In his 10 years as a professional cyclist he set the record up Mount Ventoux, and was an integral part of the winning team time trial squad in stage 5 of the 2001 Tour de France. Nonetheless, at 30, he decided to dedicate more time to his growing family, and to the business aspect of the fastest growing sport in the US.

 

[D-Queued]

I finally followed that link and so what. This is what I have already heard. Certainly to a casual observer taking a lactate test looks like they are taking something as much as it looks like they are giving a sample. I get that it looks out of propriety it is not a doctor's office or clinical setting but this was at 1 time such a rage in the coaching community that more than 1 rider was a pin cushion for more than 1 coach. You know Victoria has a lot of good coachig programs and the rowing centre was testing rowers. the triathletes, the cyclists, runners, etc. They were cross sports testing too IE cycling coaching students worked a bit with the rowers etc.
I was offered lactate testing several times but I am talentless so I panned. In retrospect it might have revealed a circulatory issue i had?
This is evidence that you have a furtive and dirty mind. You see evil where only incongruity exists. This is a non story.

Maybe they could have prescribed something for you.

I know one of the rowers and their parents. CCES came by the house, and the dad wouldn't let them in. ..."Who are you, and what do you want..."

Guess he didn't know about the consequence of missing a test.

Mom did, though, and everything turned out ok.

Now, if the rower had only been a cyclist with USPS, they would have had some advance notice and could have had cookies ready.

Dave.

 

[Random Direction]

If you want to start digging dirt in the (early) Vic. Tri. community then Pat Kelly is the name you'll come across, I doubt you'll find much but who knows. Erik Myliimaki was junior world champ in '91. I knew him from swimming much earlier. Any dirt there, who knows, doubt it. He quit. Whitfield came later.

"but after a quote from a junior cyclist in Ottawa in 1988 "we all do stuff, you guys want us to perform" I'm not so sure"

I can tell you with some authority, as I was a junior in '88 doing national team projects, that we all didn't "do stuff". I never saw anything, or did anything - do vitamin pills count? Whatever, wingnuts all around.

Pat Kelly is one of the good guys - I'd be astonished if there was anything around him. I'm more interested in the IM and MB community late 90s, early 00s.

btw - depending on where you were as a junior, we may know each other. cycling wasn't my sport then though.

 

[D-Queued]

Pat Kelly is one of the good guys - I'd be astonished if there was anything around him. I'm more interested in the IM and MB community late 90s, early 00s.

btw - depending on where you were as a junior, we may know each other. cycling wasn't my sport then though.

Only know some of the Canadian MTB'ers from that era. But, did ride with some of the bigger US names in California in the early 90s.

S. California is the home of anti-aging, as the Outside article well illuminated.

Fitness and movie stars produces a Botox culture with HGH all mixed in. Incorporating that and the cross-over of ganja culture, and MTB was colorful back then.

Dave.