Ryder's blood

[IzzyStradlin]

And the maestro...
Horner 2013:

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/63542182838/analysis-horners-biopassport-data

with context:

 

[IzzyStradlin]

So again, my question is not IF Heshedal doped. But HOW. Why is he the only one with normal retics?

 

[sniper]

So agian, my question is not IF Heshedal doped. But HOW. Why is he the only one with normal retics?

it's a fair question.
but do we know for sure he had normal retics? serious question.
the US government can make Irak have atomic weapons but JV's half a million dollars cannot make Hesjedal fly below the radar or manipulate the data? Dear Wiggo says he inquired for more data but got no reply, JV spoke of calibration errors but didn't back it up with anything tangible.
So we're left with many questions wrt the data, which is a state of affairs that Garmin, if clean, should aspire to change.

 

[sniper]

And does HGH affect retics?
One of Hesjedal's Hawaii-based doctors (ex-USPS) runs an HGH clinic.
Perhaps Hesjedal's magic potion is HGH-based, while increasing his hematocrit with microdosages of EPO and maintaining a normal retic count.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

One of Hesjedal's Hawaii-based doctors (ex-USPS) runs an HGH clinic.

Referring to Pettis?

 

[thehog]

So again, my question is not IF Heshedal doped. But HOW. Why is he the only one with normal retics?

Firstly the 3 graphs are represented differently. Just use the values and not the representation.

Look at Ryder's rec values. WTF?!?!

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But how did he do it with that blood profile?

Sure a guy like Horner makes sense, climbs super fast, BP looks like a rollercoaster. With Ryder, we are arguing over machine calibration.

You cannot be serious. You have the data and ask that question?

tsk tsk

 

[IzzyStradlin]

You cannot be serious. You have the data and ask that question?

tsk tsk

so what is the issue?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So again, my question is not IF Heshedal doped. But HOW. Why is he the only one with normal retics?

You can't take a tiny sample of IC parameters and call them normal. 1.6 is not a normal retics, in case you were wondering.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

You can't take a tiny sample of IC parameters and call them normal. 1.6 is not a normal retics, in case you were wondering.

Buuuut it's pretty close!
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/reticulocyte-count?page=2

 

[Dear Wiggo]

so what is the issue?

I can do a screen shot, I want to show when Ryder was winning GC vs when he was tested. I apologise in advance for the lack of further explanation but to me this testing regime looks farcical, through and through...

Basically: don't test Ryder until he's been GC leader for 3 days (and loses GC the next day). Test him the day before he regains GC leadership (and don't test him again). Test him twice on the final day, and have weird results.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Here's some blurb from 2008 - just do a search on some of the text to find the article online:

Reticulocytes are new red blood cells. On average, Dr. Ashenden said, the human body replaces about 1.5 percent of its red cells every day. The reticulocyte count in the tests looks at how far away from that figure a rider is. A sudden surge can indicate EPO use; a sudden drop can signal that a rider may have transfused blood (which usually takes place just prior to competition). WADA's lower limit is .4 percent; its upper limit is around 1.4. Mr. Vande Velde's highest level was 1.2, in early April, and his lowest .5, on July 15. Mr. Millar began November at 1.8. Because of his high early value (riders often return high values in the off-season, when training loads are lighter), Mr. Millar was tested twice more in the off-season. He never rose above 1.2 the rest of the year. His July 17 score was .4 percent.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Some more blurb from 2008, including a Garmin team average:

Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells. This parameter will drop to low values when red blood cell mass is artificially increased or when production of new red blood cells decreases. Values below 0.4% and above 1.4% are considered suspicious by the UCI. Our team average is 0.95 +/- 0.35.

That average means the range of values is .6 to 1.3. Ryder was a member of that team.

Someone better than me at stats can hopefully explain what 0.95 +/- 0.35 means, because an average back then of 1.6 sits outside that range of values, and I am sure Ryder's Hct has not increased since 2008, surely?

 

[TailWindHome]

If a team wins a TTT who gets tested as the stage winner?

 

[Digger]

Is this thread still open? He's clean. Garmin is clean. And what's more sky are clean according to Walsh because of Garmin. Because wiggins almost podiumed with Garmin, this means he could win the tour clean, ergo sky are clean. Walsh logic. I am glad Ryder wasn't suspended. By spreading the word of anti doping Jesus, he's bringing cycling together. It's a golden age of clean cycling. Ryder, wiggins, froome. Evans. We won!

 

[D-Queued]

If a team wins a TTT who gets tested as the stage winner?

The wrong guy, apparently.

My response is off-topic, as I am not thinking of either Ryder or Garmin.

Dave.

 

[zlev11]

as a former Hesjedal believer I have to say i'm definitely starting to doubt that 2012 performance. to be faster paniagua than those insane dopers of 2008 is just inconceivable to me, no matter how slow the rest of the stages were. we KNOW those guys in 2008 were on CERA, and looking back to the '12 Giro i was rooting big time for Hesjedal but it definitely seemed a little too good to be true, he never really showed the ability to WIN a grand tour before that and he completely stomped everyone on the Cervinia stage and then on the Pampeago stage. it just didn't seem right, even if the level of that Giro was not particularly high, and now those times show that not to be the case anyway. i really hope he was clean for that Giro win, he seems like a decent guy and i'm still a fan of his, but it doesn't look great at the moment.

that being said, i really don't think Garmin is running a team doping program. it really doesn't make sense to me that they would, i don't think JV is smart or cunning enough to pull it off while trying to appear so hardcore anti-doping. is he a hypocrite? probably, but i certainly don't think he's facilitating a team-wide doping program. if guys on the team are doping they are doing it on their own and it's flying under the radar of Garmin's own internal testing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

that being said, i really don't think Garmin is running a team doping program. it really doesn't make sense to me that they would, i don't think JV is smart or cunning enough to pull it off while trying to appear so hardcore anti-doping. is he a hypocrite? probably, but i certainly don't think he's facilitating a team-wide doping program. if guys on the team are doping they are doing it on their own and it's flying under the radar of Garmin's own internal testing.

Or, smart money would test so they never test positive. Sky's Colombian 'research' is similar. Is JV's squad cleans? Cleanish? It's not doping if it's not illegal? I don't know.

It doesn't appear to be a Tinkoff setup though, so that is an improvement.

Ryder is a dirty cheat though. I could not trust him to tell me the time of day. I like Dan Martin's goofy smile, so until the next strategic revelation or TT monster transformation he's okay.

 

[thehog]

Buuuut it's pretty close!
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/reticulocyte-count?page=2

Riding a 3 week Grand Tour is the same as regular person sitting on the couch?

 

[Digger]

Riding a 3 week Grand Tour is the same as regular person sitting on the couch?

This rage machine has got to stop hog. Ryder is cleans. Nothing to see here guv!
(I can't believe Walsh used that type of lingo when writing his book on sky....what an idiot.)

Anyway back to Ryder. What a rider.

 

[blackcat]

I see a doped up Kreuziger there losing almost one and a half minute on clean Hesjedal on an 8km climb.
Good to see doping makes you weaker.

youve been warned

 

[thehog]

This rage machine has got to stop hog. Ryder is cleans. Nothing to see here guv!
(I can't believe Walsh used that type of lingo when writing his book on sky....what an idiot.)

Anyway back to Ryder. What a rider.

The sad part of it all is there is no rage machine to get angry at a situation which was obviously corrupt.

How did a life long Canadian doper manage to get himself off by speaking with USADA because he once rode for USPS? The guy sort out dope himself, he was not pressured and was clearly doping at Phonak and more recently in 2012.

Total BS but as long as it has some link to Lance you can get yourself off.

We've gone from one to corrupt system to another.

 

[TailWindHome]

youve been warned

Those eyebrows aren't normal

 

[sniper]

The sad part of it all is there is no rage machine to get angry at a situation which was obviously corrupt.

How did a life long Canadian doper manage to get himself off by speaking with USADA because he once rode for USPS? The guy sort out dope himself, he was not pressured and was clearly doping at Phonak and more recently in 2012.

Total BS but as long as it has some link to Lance you can get yourself off.

We've gone from one to corrupt system to another.

this seems very much to be the case.

 

[thehog]

this seems very much to be the case.

Further to that point. No one would have ever found out if it wasn't for Rassmussen. Which leads to the next question; how many more riders are out there whom have struck the same silent deal between JV/USADA?