Ryder's blood

[sniper]

How is Kreuziger a proven doper?

granted.

Not that his time in relation to Hesjedal matters much giving the race situation.

i said 'beating times and outputs' (plural).
if not on that single day then quite clearly on other days in that three week period.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I think it's time we backed off Ryder. Jv says he's clean, and jv says he believes him when Ryder said he stopped doping before phonak. That's enough for me.

Well I guess so,,,, if JV is laying it out like that.

My watch has a nifty little trick on it. Thing will calculate my Vo2 of all things. I wonder why Garmin don't post up Vo2 for these guys? Or is Ryder one of those cyclist who has never had his Vo2 measured?

 

[Benotti69]

I just have to ask. when you are out with your riding buddies and one of you has a great day do you automatically look for the dope? It just that you always go straight to doping for any winner. If you have a great day do you sit at home for 2 years right after to show contrition? Or is it just that you think this is clever?

Why cant you accept that doping is part of the fabric of professional cycling?

Does it totally undermine what you do in the sport? Because it sure sounds like it.

The guys i ride with think the pro sport stinks and refuse to attend races. I attended quite a few editions of the Giro.

Hesjedal rides a mountain faster than the CERA generation and you think he had a good day. Laugh out loud!!!!!!!! Are you that naive?

Epo gives what 15% - 25% and CERA was a superEPO, ask Sella? FFS

The guy(Hesjedal) who said EPO didn't work for him expects people to believe him when he wins a Giro and he claims he was clean and rides faster than dopers?

That my posts upset so many and their only response is to attack me, rather than point to the independent anti doping that has massive funds and riders are tested so often in and out of competition and so many in the sport speak out against doping and dopers.

Dimspace did an interesting graph showing 5 or 6 dopers and their performances before their bans and their performance levels after their ban. Most at least equalled their performance prior to the ban with the others surpassing it.

The sport is rife with doping. Of course it is. Nothing has shown that not to be the case. All we hear is PR and pi&& poor PR at that.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Hesjedal rides a mountain faster than the CERA generation and you think he had a good day. Laugh out loud!!!!!!!! Are you that naive?

Epo gives what 15% - 25% and CERA was a superEPO, ask Sella? FFS

But how did he do it with that blood profile?

Sure a guy like Horner makes sense, climbs super fast, BP looks like a rollercoaster. With Ryder, we are arguing over machine calibration.

 

[Benotti69]

But how did he do it with that blood profile?

Sure a guy like Horner makes sense, climbs super fast, BP looks like a rollercoaster. With Ryder, we are arguing over machine calibration.

If Hesjedal was clean you would think Garmin, JV and Hesjedal would be screaming to get that blood sample retested or the machine tested to ensure the correct reading............but nope, blame machine calibration error without any evidence that the machine was to blame.

Of course, Garmin talk about being clean, but dont walk the clean walk.

 

[roundabout]

I wonder what the comparison is for the times from Tesero to the Pampeago/Lavaze fork?

I think Giau was another sorta comparable climb, and they didn't really fly there

 

[pmcg76]

Why cant you accept that doping is part of the fabric of professional cycling?

Does it totally undermine what you do in the sport? Because it sure sounds like it.

The guys i ride with think the pro sport stinks and refuse to attend races. I attended quite a few editions of the Giro.

Hesjedal rides a mountain faster than the CERA generation and you think he had a good day. Laugh out loud!!!!!!!! Are you that naive?

Epo gives what 15% - 25% and CERA was a superEPO, ask Sella? FFS

The guy(Hesjedal) who said EPO didn't work for him expects people to believe him when he wins a Giro and he claims he was clean and rides faster than dopers?

That my posts upset so many and their only response is to attack me, rather than point to the independent anti doping that has massive funds and riders are tested so often in and out of competition and so many in the sport speak out against doping and dopers.

Dimspace did an interesting graph showing 5 or 6 dopers and their performances before their bans and their performance levels after their ban. Most at least equalled their performance prior to the ban with the others surpassing it.

The sport is rife with doping. Of course it is. Nothing has shown that not to be the case. All we hear is PR and pi&& poor PR at that.

You can believe what ever you want in regards doping and most people wouldn't care. However the absolute stupidity of some of the things you put forward as proof is just ripe for ridicule. This is another example.

There is not a single person out there worth there salt who would see much credence in comparing times on a climb from one year to another to prove anything. Over a period to time yes but not year to year.

Just to make this point clear, Lances fastest time(non-TT) on Alpe d'Huez is 3.30 faster than his slowest. That should illustrate to anyone how pointless it is to comapre year to year without considering mitigating factors.

Lucho Herrera who rode before EPO has a time for Alpe d'Huez that is faster than a Contador time set some 25 years later. An off-form Greg LeMond has a time for Alpe d'Huez that is within 30 seconds of a Contador time.

I highly doubt that you believe a clean rider or a non-EPO using rider are capable of beating or getting within 30 seconds of Contador on a major climb?

 

[Parker]

If Hesjedal was clean you would think Garmin, JV and Hesjedal would be screaming to get that blood sample retested or the machine tested to ensure the correct reading............but nope, blame machine calibration error without any evidence that the machine was to blame.

Why would they bother? The test result had no actual impact other than to excite a handful of people on the internet who dogmaticly believe everyone is doping anyway, regardless of what the test result was.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

If Hesjedal was clean you would think Garmin, JV and Hesjedal would be screaming to get that blood sample retested or the machine tested to ensure the correct reading............but nope, blame machine calibration error without any evidence that the machine was to blame.

Of course, Garmin talk about being clean, but dont walk the clean walk.

But the variation in his profile just isn't enough to give a Ricco/Sella type performance jump. Not even close. And the disputed value is 2 weeks before his best performance.

So really...what is the secret? How does someone ride that fast without a high hct or repressed retics?

 

[jens_attacks]

Kreuziger was nevertheless 4 seconds faster than Emanuele Sella, who was also in the break of the day, and who was chocked full of CERA.

The 2012 stage was harder than 2008's, but Sella was solo longer iirc.

i have complete time ascents from both days....mythical sella was ...wait for it...8 minutes faster than the peloton of 2012 on passo manghen..vaya pendejo hardcore. epic raids by lele, luv him

 

[Nick C.]

i have complete time ascents from both days....mythical sella was ...wait for it...8 minutes faster than the peloton of 2012 on passo manghen..vaya pendejo hardcore. epic raids by lele, luv him

What??!!!!? Are you joking? That is just crazy.

 

[jens_attacks]

What??!!!!? Are you joking? That is just crazy.

the differnce is so extreme because they rode slow in 2012 on manghen-at 18 kmph. to give you another example, rasmussen rode in 2007 the aubisque 10 minutes faster than voeckler and arashiro did in 2012. it doesn't say the whole story but yeah if i would choose to be a pro bike racer i would do the things the emanuele sella way. scrrew them all, go full gas, beat the doctors if they don't let you take everything

 

[sniper]

But how did he do it with that blood profile?

for us a question for Garmin a know.
How did armstrong destroy the peloton for 7 years in a row? we didn't know much of what he was up to until USADA started digging. And times have changed and people have learned, so don't expect any of the leaks and hints of the type Armstrong/USPS provided us with.

Now would you really be surprised to hear Gamrin found a way to dope up while flying under the BP radar? We know Garmin spend big bucks on the medical department, we know Vaughters was involved in the development/introduction of the BP, we know test results are sometimes messed with.
To argue that Hesjedal on bread and water beats full throttle dopers during a GT, that contradicts everything we know about the effects of doping.
NB: Bear in mind also that guys like Kreuziger, Menchov and Ricco (used to) build their entire season, and thus their doping programs, around the Giro.

Why would they bother? The test result had no actual impact other than to excite a handful of people on the internet who dogmaticly believe everyone is doping anyway, regardless of what the test result was.

here's your answer:

JV: I believe that transparency is sort of the way out.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ormances-are-clean_295608#hoQMk2t6FOToHuKx.99

So really...what is the secret? How does someone ride that fast without a high hct or repressed retics?

did i miss something? Do we know Hesjedal's basevalues?

 

[Benotti69]

You can believe what ever you want in regards doping and most people wouldn't care. However the absolute stupidity of some of the things you put forward as proof is just ripe for ridicule. This is another example.

The personal attack.

There is not a single person out there worth there salt who would see much credence in comparing times on a climb from one year to another to prove anything. Over a period to time yes but not year to year.

Just to make this point clear, Lances fastest time(non-TT) on Alpe d'Huez is 3.30 faster than his slowest. That should illustrate to anyone how pointless it is to comapre year to year without considering mitigating factors.

Lucho Herrera who rode before EPO has a time for Alpe d'Huez that is faster than a Contador time set some 25 years later. An off-form Greg LeMond has a time for Alpe d'Huez that is within 30 seconds of a Contador time.

I highly doubt that you believe a clean rider or a non-EPO using rider are capable of beating or getting within 30 seconds of Contador on a major climb?

Robert Millar called doping, "The problem was institutional".

Now how, when and where did that change?

 

[Benotti69]

Why would they bother?

Exactly when people swallow the PR BS.

But maybe if they were really a clean team something like this would be important.

The test result had no actual impact other than to excite a handful of people on the internet who dogmaticly believe everyone is doping anyway, regardless of what the test result was.

So you believe the testing works? You believe that testing a rider every 11months will stop them doping. Keep buying that black and blue rapha gear.

 

[pmcg76]

The personal attack.



Robert Millar called doping, "The problem was institutional".

Now how, when and where did that change?

Nice effort at deflection, so you claim that Ryder going faster than the guys in 2008 is proof of doping and when challenged on it, you suddenly change to Robert Millar says blah, blah, blah whilst completely ignoring what is actually written. Yeah Robert Millar retired almost 20 years.

If you don't want to be called on your garbage, don't post it. Simple really.

 

[Benotti69]

But the variation in his profile just isn't enough to give a Ricco/Sella type performance jump. Not even close. And the disputed value is 2 weeks before his best performance.

So really...what is the secret? How does someone ride that fast without a high hct or repressed retics?

Variation in a profile that is designed due to Garmin internal testing. JV apparently spends half a million every year 'testing' his team.

I think JV spends money ensuring his riders dope and dont trip the ABP. Hence Hesjedals small spike.

Again if you are a clean team why not have the test redone, machine checked etc....i mean it is not like the sport has a bad reputation and your team is trying to change that perception......!!!!!!

I dont see where the sport that has known institutionalised doping problems suddenly changed from that!

Can someone point to it? JV said in 2008 that doping was no longer cool. Look at all those dopers in 2008.

You see JV says lots, but it is all talk and this sport has done nothing to fight doping but talk.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yea, if I was gonna dope up, I'd want to do it the Emanuele Sella way. 6 seconds away from a memorable Dolomiti triple, and holding the GPM from day 1 to the end of the race winning nearly every mountaintop. A king amongst men. Loved that CSF-Navigare team.

 

[sniper]

Nice effort at deflection, so you claim that Ryder going faster than the guys in 2008 is proof of doping and when challenged on it, you suddenly change to Robert Millar says blah, blah, blah whilst completely ignoring what is actually written. Yeah Robert Millar retired almost 20 years.

If you don't want to be called on your garbage, don't post it. Simple really.

when a soccer player plays the man, not the ball, it's typically to compensate for his lack of skills.

 

[Benotti69]

Nice effort at deflection, so you claim that Ryder going faster than the guys in 2008 is proof of doping and when challenged on it, you suddenly change to Robert Millar says blah, blah, blah whilst completely ignoring what is actually written. Yeah Robert Millar retired almost 20 years.

If you don't want to be called on your garbage, don't post it. Simple really.

Show me where the sport cleaned up its act.

Garbage? the sport is still as dirty as it ever was.

So Millar knows nothing because he retired 20 years ago. JV sits in Denver playing with his wines, old porsche and fishing yet knows the sport cleaned up its act......lol.

 

[Benotti69]

Yea, if I was gonna dope up, I'd want to do it the Emanuele Sella way. 6 seconds away from a memorable Dolomiti triple, and holding the GPM from day 1 to the end of the race winning nearly every mountaintop. A king amongst men. Loved that CSF-Navigare team.

I think Armstrong managed the doping game better than anyone. If he wasn't such a psycho he would've got away with it.

Anyone thinking Hesjedal won the Giro clean is away with the faeries....

 

[IzzyStradlin]

for us a question for Garmin a know.
How did armstrong destroy the peloton for 7 years in a row?

A *** ton of drugs and large-scale corruption.

We know Garmin spend big bucks on the medical department, we know Vaughters was involved in the development/introduction of the BP, we know test results are sometimes messed with.

$500,000 is not quite big bucks in the medical world. And Vaughters has a very different relationship with the UCI than Lance, JB and Weisel.

To argue that Hesjedal on bread and water beats full throttle dopers during a GT, that contradicts everything we know about the effects of doping.

I'm not saying Hesjedal is clean, I am just asking how he would have done it...Literally....How?

 

[sniper]

A *** ton of drugs and large-scale corruption.

yes and that's seven years in a row crushing the peloton. Hesjedal didn't do anything like that, luckily.
No need to look at lance.
Just saying, we never know how exactly the cheats cheat until it comes out.

$500,000 is not quite big bucks in the medical world. And Vaughters has a very different relationship with the UCI than Lance, JB and Weisel.

JV said it was 500.000 at some point. May have been trippled by now, we can only guess. Fact is (JV has said so) that in the peloton Garmin are among the teams that spend most on medical department. They pride themselves with that so let's not take that away from them.

I'm not saying Hesjedal is clean, I am just asking how he would have done it...Literally....How?

We don't know if he did it, do we? Calibration errors? PErhaps, perhaps not. Who says the data aren't manipulated? If you wanna catch the cheats, think outside the box, Reedie would say.
Didn't Lance also fly under the radar in 2009? At least Pat McQuaid said so.
Now you may think Pat has less credibility than JV, but at the end of the day the evidence in Hesjedal's favor is as thin as the evidence in Lance's favor. Never tested positive.

 

[westerner]

It's not just one thing that plants seeds of doubt wrt to an athlete: ie climbing times, w/kg stats, but also other circumstances and past words/actions.

An athlete who has not given a plausible reason for why he stopped doping is one.

An athlete who when outed went into hiding. Then it took 9 months before he could come up with his story that he shared to his local newspaper.

CCES does not release individual testing stats like USADA does. I wonder how many times he has been tested on Maui, where he has trained since 2005 and owned a house since 2007 (according to a velonews article). And word is that Ryder did not originally move to Maui only for the climate. Just like Chicken he knew the value of avoiding those pesky testers.

Athletes can also do themselves a favor and make an effort to be transparent in their ways. Give some reason to trust them.

Saying stuff like this just is not good enough imo when trying to earn trust back:
“No matter what you say, people are always just going to think you’re lying, so why do I need to keep defending myself?”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...st-doping-offenses_328778#A166t6LysxF5XpJQ.99

Ryder surely has volumes of training/testing data.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/how-the-scientific-approach-paid-off-for-ryder-hesjedal/article4217477/

How about a release of some data a la the Pinot study rather than the constant "trust us" from the Garmin camp.

He has chosen to parrot JV in interviews, and keep pretty quiet rather than make much effort to get the trust back from the skeptics - why be surprised when this breeds cynicism?

In his position I'd have even called up Kimmage and asked for an interview.

Lots of options to show some effort to be transparent, credible and actually help the image of cycling to move forward.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

As a reminder. Our favorite charts:

Lance 2008/9:

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/42994445565/armstrong-biopassport-cover-up
Hesjedal 2012:

http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/31376789644/captaintbag-expert-analysis-ryder-hesjedal