Ryder's blood

[Dear Wiggo]

This topic has been discussed for almost two years and nobody has cried about Mike's date typo until now.

Noone's crying about it now, either, although on the first page, quoted above for your convenience is such a clarification - within the first page, let alone the 2 years.

Being wrong is a *****, I get it.

 

[Race Radio]

Not obvious to you, though given you replicated incorrect dates. Not sure what you're getting at now? And what's with parroting my "critical thinking" claim?

At no stage have I said the values were wrong - the dates you copy and pasted, however, are.

If I have said the values were wrong - I am referring to the values of the dates, not the hematological values.

Now you have it in writing, perhaps you can stop this witch hunt.

Witch hunt? So far you have accused me of "lacking critical thinking" and posting "dubious", "erroneous" info, even though that was not the case.

It is good that you agree that it is the values that matter and a typo in the dates are just a distraction.

 

[Race Radio]

Noone's crying about it now, either, although on the first page, quoted above for your convenience is such a clarification - within the first page, let alone the 2 years.

Being wrong is a *****, I get it.

Thank for proving my point. It was clear to most what the dates were. Nobody was crying about it being "Dubious", "Erroneous", or that Mike "Lacked in critical thinking"....nope, they focused on what mattered. The Values

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It is good that you agree that it is the values that matter and a typo in the dates are just a distraction.

Twisting words, Race Radio? Goodness me.

To make it clear what I am saying:

Hema values are worthless / irrelevant without their dates. The dates are critical, and key to interpreting them, providing context.

I am sorry you do not understand this.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I've asked Mike to fix up his post and change the dates to their actual values. I look forward to this being remedied in the near future.

 

[Race Radio]

Twisting words, Race Radio? Goodness me.

To make it clear what I am saying:

Hema values are worthless / irrelevant without their dates. The dates are critical, and key to interpreting them, providing context.

I am sorry you do not understand this.

It appears you are the only person here who was unable deduce the dates. You are welcome to toss out all of Mike's work, call it erroneous, dubious, etc. based on one typo but don't expect everyone else to join you in your witch hunt

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It appears you are the only person here who was unable deduce the dates. You are welcome to toss out all of Mike's work, call it erroneous, dubious, etc. based on one typo but don't expect everyone else to join you in your witch hunt

Reminds me of Markov chain post generation.

Interesting.

 

[sniper]

so now we have two calibration/lab errors (one before the start of the Giro, one during the Giro) plus a misrepresentation of the dates.
all accidents of course.

Thank for proving my point. It was clear to most what the dates were. Nobody was crying about it being "Dubious", "Erroneous", or that Mike "Lacked in critical thinking"....nope, they focused on what mattered. The Values

the values become meaningful in the context of the dates at which they were recorded. i think we may acknowledge that much.
the question is whether or to what extent that different datum alters the interpretation of the data.

HEre's a graph from JV (i think) sent per email to Captaintbag.

is the graph reflecting the typo/error or is it not? (I honestly can't tell)
if it is, it means Captainbag can throw his analysis away and start over.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

is the graph reflecting the typo/error or is it not? (I honestly can't tell)
if it is, it means Captainbag can throw his analysis away and start over.

No, it's not.

If you look at the original list of values, they were in chronological order. 18th then 2 x 17th values, however, which clearly should have been 27th of May, not 17th. Race radio re-ordered them when he copied and pasted them, mistaking the 2 x 17th dates as being correct dates but incorrectly ordered.

The retics graph above shows 2 values on the same day (27th), one 28% higher than the other. The Hgb graph shows 2 values side by side as they were exactly the same despite being taken 11 hours apart (AM/PM readings).

The graphs were constructed by Captain Tbag, not JV. JV supplied the data.

 

[Race Radio]

so now we have two calibration/lab errors (one before the start of the Giro, one during the Giro)

No we don't. Mike wrote May 17th instead of May 27th. Simple typo. Nothing to do the lab or calibration. The values are still the same.

is the graph reflecting the typo/error or is it not? (I honestly can't tell)

No.

 

[zigmeister]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But the zero in the graph stands for the start of the Giro, in days yes?

So T-100, or 20 etc..is 100 or 20 days prior to the start of the Giro, and the value are plotted.

Then, at zero, or just a day/two before, there is a test. Then about 4-5 more samples drawn during the Giro, both are fairly close together, rest day range?

Seems it is pretty clear to me, if you want to dope, this graph speaks volumes on how to time your EPO mirco dosing to start raising your levels, or when to transfuse blood.

Once again, you have to be stupid and not have learned a thing, by simple pattern studying, to get caught today. It would seem, and I didn't look at the race dates to verify...lazy. But, if you want to dope, microdosing is the way to go still, and the stupid "reviewers/panel of experts" still don't know anything but what they were told my past dopers on how they doped.

So, they all seem to think that "rest days" are the key to bust people.

Anyway, there is just one value I find suspicious, and of course, lab error is the answer. That is how you get away with a violation, blame it on the lab. And if there was true suspicion, then a B sample could be done to test again.

 

[Benotti69]

ammattipyoraily on twitter has a very interesting table showing climb times up Alpe Di Pampeago from Giro 2008 and Giro 2012.

Menchov climbed it the fastest in 2008 with a time of 25:23

Hesjedal climbed it the fastest in 2012 with a time of 25:00.

 

[thehog]

ammattipyoraily on twitter has a very interesting table showing climb times up Alpe Di Pampeago from Giro 2008 and Giro 2012.

Menchov climbed it the fastest in 2008 with a time of 25:23

Hesjedal climbed it the fastest in 2012 with a time of 25:00.

That can only mean one thing, can it not?

 

[the sceptic]

That can only mean one thing, can it not?

It can only mean he had a tailwind. Around 80% is my estimate.

 

[thehog]

It can only mean he had a tailwind. Around 80% is my estimate.

Correct. I saw the time and thought it might have been doping but then saw "Garmin' and knew it could only be a tailwind.

 

[ralphbert]

Correct. I saw the time and thought it might have been doping but then saw "Garmin' and knew it could only be a tailwind.

That's not fair. It could be a calibration issue.

 

[thehog]

That's not fair. It could be a calibration issue.

They did cross my mind as well. Along with waiting another 6 years of the SoL to toll.

 

[Digger]

That can only mean one thing, can it not?

Look hog come on. It's a case of the crazy adaptive physiology. Anyway I believe in Ryder. Of course he stopped doping before phonak.

 

[thehog]

Look hog come on. It's a case of the crazy adaptive physiology. Anyway I believe in Ryder. Of course he stopped doping before phonak.

I know.

Ryder went and spoke to Michael Rasmussen and the Chicken told Ryder that doping is not for the cool kids and to stop. So he stopped doping and his performances got better!

And there was no doping at Phonak. None. Their only crime was the colour scheme of their kit.

 

[Parker]

That can only mean one thing, can it not?

Different tactics and scenarios? No, it would be stupid to consider that. After all, every race is identical.

 

[thehog]

Different tactics and scenarios? No, it would be stupid to consider that. After all, every race is identical.

Nah. Tailwind for sure.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Different tactics and scenarios? No, it would be stupid to consider that. After all, every race is identical.

ammattipyöräily ‏@ammattipyoraily 8h8 hours ago

@Digger_forum #Giro, Alpe di Pampeago — climbing times 2008 vs. 2012 MTFs, full gas, no matter about the tactics

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/532988929172312065

 

[jens_attacks]

different weather eh?
different speed on passo manghen also
too many variables

 

[Dear Wiggo]

different weather eh?
different speed on passo manghen also
too many variables

And yet basically identical data. Those variables sure have a way of effectively removing themselves from the equation.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Different tactics and scenarios? No, it would be stupid to consider that. After all, every race is identical.

Of course. But on the flip side, Pampeago was the first true mountain stage in 2008 and the penultimate in 2012, and the 2012 stage was the harder parcours (presumably this data is from the second climb of Pampeago rather than the first, which came off of Manghen as per the 2008 stage).

At the same time, 2012's race was a more timidly conducted affair so riders could be fresher on stage 19 than they were on stage 14 four years earlier, much of the climbing was cagey or soft-pedalled, weather was different and Sella had several minutes' advantage at the base of the climb and may have eased up a bit to save energy considering he went in the break and won in the same way the following day on Fedaia.

Those additional factors work both ways on where the times ought to be relative to the 2008 race.