Ryder's blood

[Samson777]

Fair point.

I can only speak for myself. When folks get spit out early on a climb, there are experiencing what is my normal.



Dave.

Good post

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Except his blood rose in the 3rd week of his Giro win, which JV blamed machine error for, same as Wiggins values fro 2009, machine error again.

Compared to examples like Basso or Horner or Lance...one does not look like the others.

 

[Benotti69]

Fair point.

I can only speak for myself. When folks get spit out early on a climb, there are experiencing what is my normal.



Dave.

Let's see some transparency before we decide your normal Dave

 

[D-Queued]

Let's see some transparency before we decide your normal Dave

Ok, I only doped when I won World Championship medals.

Then, I got too tired and stopped doping. Fortunately, now nobody else dopes.



Yup, that makes sense.

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

^^^

Moving past the sarcasm, and the humor, is it notable that Ryder's comments were clearly not prepared by a publicist?

Maybe that is the sign of honesty we are searching for.

Dave.

 

[westerner]

Dave, agreed that it is a good development that the words in this interview appear to have come from Ryder's mouth. Not that I think they do him many favors. Lots of excuses, don't get much sense of any contrition, just bummed his Giro win got tainted. Wish the interviewer had asked him if he had considered to give any titles or prize money back for the races says he cheated in. Even if it was donated to charity.

Ryder has really lost out on a lot of cred for not speaking on the issues in person since the chicken clucked last fall.

The silence due to ongoing investigation shtick is just that. Cannot see how a single word in this interview could not have been given before now.

 

[sniper]

i have a hard time believing ryder hesjedal is the next greg lemond.
i'm having an easy time believing he's just another doper and lying cheat, making a very decent living while at it.

 

[sniper]

in the interview he somehow claims doping made him worse
but also that he couldn't ride among the best at discovery and phonak because he didn't dope.

dave, i see why you are desperate to believe, but this is just too much.
he's literally telling us he became worse while on juice, and in stead of looking for a better program and better doctors, he decided to go clean and started improving again!

what are the odds!

 

[D-Queued]

in the interview he somehow claims doping made him worse
but also that he couldn't ride among the best at discovery and phonak because he didn't dope.

dave, i see why you are desperate to believe, but this is just too much.
he's literally telling us he became worse while on juice, and in stead of looking for a better program and better doctors, he decided to go clean and started improving again!

what are the odds!

I've been critical of Ryder, and am trying to extend him the benefit of the doubt. I always thought that if there was a victim of doping, he would be a prime candidate.

Other folks ran a concerted campaign to try and exploit his doping past for their own benefit well prior to any admission or reasoned decision.

What is worse? Doping just like everyone else? Or having a group of competitors work to eliminate someone through a concerted campaign to vindictively 'out' them?

At least two wrongs in there.

This is why I am oddly compelled to try and say positive stuff about a known doper.

Lately, though, he sure doesn't look like a guy that won the Giro. It is harder to knock a guy when they are down.

As noted above, the honesty of his interview may lay in its convoluted logic.

Applying his logic, perhaps he is doping again.

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

....

Lately, though, he sure doesn't look like a guy that won the Giro. It is harder to knock a guy when they are down.

...

Oops!

Posted before checking the results of today's stage.

Hello Ryder.

Dave.

 

[pmcg76]

i have a hard time believing ryder hesjedal is the next greg lemond.
i'm having an easy time believing he's just another doper and lying cheat, making a very decent living while at it.

He doesn't need to be the next LeMond, he would more likely be the next Eric Caritoux.

 

[Tonton]

Oops!

Posted before checking the results of today's stage.

Hello Ryder.

Dave.

LOL. Yet looking at his 2014 results, his 17th place finish at the Tour of Poland is indeed far from Giro winning level.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Got it from here. Hardly off by a mile.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18531

The original source is here.
http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/31376789644/captaintbag-expert-analysis-ryder-hesjedal

The dates and numbers line up so perhaps your source is wrong?

Not exactly sure what you mean by "the dates and numbers line up" but you're wrong.

The 2 tests in one day - where his retics increased by 28% - were done either side of the final TT on the 27th. Backed up by JV in the JV talks thread.

What on earth would increase retics by 28% during a single day, I wonder...

 

[Race Radio]

Not exactly sure what you mean by "the dates and numbers line up" but you're wrong.

The dates and numbers that I posted, and what Veloclinic wrote, line up. They are not wrong. If you scroll to the bottom the link I gave you can clearly see the numbers Mike got from JV are the same numbers and dates I posted

If you do not feel this is the case feel free to discuss it here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18531 we don't need to turn every thread into a JV/Sky thread

 

[zigmeister]

Got it from here. Hardly off by a mile.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18531

The original source is here.
http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/31376789644/captaintbag-expert-analysis-ryder-hesjedal

The dates and numbers line up so perhaps your source is wrong?

Regardless, the questions with Ryders blood focus on how stable it was. There was no dramatic increase.......but that is for another thread. Feel free to discuss it here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18531

While it is fun to equate Horner, Ryder, or Wiggins with Kreuziger it is hard to do this without Kreuziger numbers. I find it very odd that these figures, that were the core of the case, were not included in the reasoned decision.

Well, another clear and obvious answer why his reticulocyte count is high is that maybe he is a woman.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The dates and numbers that I posted, and what Veloclinic wrote, line up. They are not wrong.

They are wrong, and if you could engage some critical thinking you'd see why - he's even listed 17th (should be 27th) after the 18th, so clearly a transcription error or similar.

Did the fact that I mentioned the final day TT on the 27th escape you entirely?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes, but you would expect a linear drop and not like in Ryder's case, where there is sudden drop in first week and then it remains the same throughout the Giro.

Also, results from 17th May should be 27th May (last day of Giro).

Good post, nogav1ca.

 

[Benotti69]

Ah come on guys, everyone knows the doping never worked for Hesjedal, in fact it made him worse, like Superman and kryptonite, so when clean he was just like Superman.....if it wasn't for those pesky machine errors......

 

[pmcg76]

The drop may not be linear because once you get into a depleted state, you can't push yourself hard enough to further deplete yourself. A pattern like this is normal in a body where everything is functioning as it should. A parameter changes and then normalizes.

This was in response to the question raised about why Ht/Hgb didn't continue to decrease in the final weeks. At least 2/3 other posters backed up this statement independently.

Someone else pointed out that the normal level of decrease is ~10% in HT over the course of a GT.

 

[Race Radio]

They are wrong, and if you could engage some critical thinking you'd see why - he's even listed 17th (should be 27th) after the 18th, so clearly a transcription error or similar.

Did the fact that I mentioned the final day TT on the 27th escape you entirely?

Critical thinking? How are the dates being out of sync mean that they are "Off by a mile"? If you could engage in some critical thinking you would see the results are the same.

Your "Incredibly dubious" source claim is a bit dramatic don't you think? Given that my source is the same source that launched this thread, a thread that you are one of the top three posters in, why is it now that you are suddenly claiming that the source is "Dubious" and "Off by a mile"?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Critical thinking? How are the dates being out of sync mean that they are "Off by a mile"? If you could engage in some critical thinking you would see the results are the same.

Yeah you know - look at the graph, consider the shape of the mapped data points, confirm my claim that the final 2 are from the final day TT when he won. That kinda thing.

Instead of just claiming you are right because... Race Radio.

Your "Incredibly dubious" source claim is a bit dramatic don't you think? Given that my source is the same source that launched this thread, a thread that you are one of the top three posters in, why is it now that you are suddenly claiming that the source is "Dubious" and "Off by a mile"?

The data is dubious - those values are not from the 17th.

And getting away from the fact that what you posted looks better than what happened in reality.

The date of the 17th is off by a country mile from when it was actually taken - the 27th in terms of physiological parameters and their impact or expected behaviour. 10 days timing error in a 3 week GT is a serious error.

 

[Race Radio]

Yeah you know - look at the graph, consider the shape of the mapped data points, confirm my claim that the final 2 are from the final day TT when he won. That kinda thing.

Instead of just claiming you are right because... Race Radio.



The data is dubious - those values are not from the 17th.

And getting away from the fact that what you posted looks better than what happened in reality.

The date of the 17th is off by a country mile from when it was actually taken - the 27th in terms of physiological parameters and their impact or expected behaviour. 10 days timing error in a 3 week GT is a serious error.

Lots of words, little content.

While it is funny that after 2 years of contributing to this thread you suddenly become obsessed with a typo in the dates we both know it is the values that count. It only takes a tiny bit of critical thinking to figure that out.

Setting the dates aside If you think that Mike is not using the actual values then please share with us what Ryder's values from the Giro really were.

Of course if you want to obsess over a typo in the dates then feel free, but we both know that adds no value

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Of course if you want to obsess over a typo in the dates then feel free, but we both know that adds no value

Are you admitting an error? I can't tell.

Regardless, if you think dates (differing by 10 days in a 21 day GT) do not matter when it comes to believable physiological parameter tracking, we have nothing further to discuss.

 

[Race Radio]

Are you admitting an error? I can't tell.

Regardless, if you think dates (differing by 10 days in a 21 day GT) do not matter when it comes to believable physiological parameter tracking, we have nothing further to discuss.

No, I think the values posted are correct. Obvious to most what the dates were, all it takes is a little critical thinking. This topic has been discussed for almost two years and nobody has cried about Mike's date typo until now.

So do you think that Ryder's values that Mike posted are wrong? If so what are his real values? Was he actually 50% in the final week?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Obvious to most what the dates were, all it takes is a little critical thinking. Pretty simple.

So do you think that Ryder's values that Mike posted are wrong? If so what are his real values? Was he actually 50% in the final week?

Not obvious to you, though given you replicated incorrect dates. Not sure what you're getting at now? And what's with parroting my "critical thinking" claim?

At no stage have I said the values were wrong - the dates you copy and pasted, however, are. The values you ascribe to the 17th are from the 27th.

Now you have it in writing, perhaps you can stop this witch hunt.