Ryder's blood

[Benotti69]

Kreuzinger's HCt went from 43.2 to 48.1 in 10 days DURING the Giro. Not normal and he got beaten by a 'clean' Hesjedal...........

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Kreuzinger's HCt went from 43.2 to 48.1 in 10 days DURING the Giro. Not normal and he got beaten by a 'clean' Hesjedal...........

Yeah but EPO was holding Ryder back, so it makes sense that having stopped using EPO, he would go better.

 

[the sceptic]

Yes, It does seem hard to explain how a clean rider can be competitive in the 3rd week against someone who is using blood bags.

 

[del1962]

Yes, It does seem hard to explain how a clean rider can be competitive in the 3rd week against someone who is using blood bags.

Would that not depend on how good the doper was in the first place?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Would that not depend on how good the doper was in the first place?

This is a the fundamental problem with oxygen vector doping. Simultaneously revolutionary and affecting each athlete differently. Riis being the gold standard example. The sense of a sport with an athletic-genetic basis is no longer what roughly sorts out a race result.

 

[Ferminal]

Yes, It does seem hard to explain how a clean rider can be competitive in the 3rd week against someone who is using blood bags.

Helps if the bag makes them crook for a day...

 

[the sceptic]

Hesjedal cleans doing 6.07w/kg and Kreuziger could barely beat him even though he was juicing like in the dark era?

 

[Benotti69]

Hesjedal cleans doing 6.07w/kg and Kreuziger could barely beat him even though he was juicing like in the dark era?

Hesjedal climbing faster than Ferrari riders Kreuziger and Scarponi...

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Hesjedal climbing faster than Ferrari riders Kreuziger and Scarponi...

Kreuziger had bridged to the front group with 25km, rode the first half of the Pampeago solo and then rode the break off his wheel. Hesjedal was riding wheels until 3km.

 

[sniper]

Kreuziger had bridged to the front group with 25km, rode the first half of the Pampeago solo and then rode the break off his wheel. Hesjedal was riding wheels until 3km.

in those five climbs Hesjedal and Rodriguez are the only one topping JV's clean 6.0 w/kg barrier.
Look at the averages also, again, Hesjedal and Rodriguez together beating a bunch of very dodgy riders.
That's easy to explain if you assume hesjedal was doping.
Do you have an alternative explanation? Do put it forward and explain why it is preferable over the doping explanation.

 

[D-Queued]

in those five climbs Hesjedal and Rodriguez are the only one topping JV's clean 6.0 w/kg barrier.
Look at the averages also, again, Hesjedal and Rodriguez together beating a bunch of very dodgy riders.
That's easy to explain if you assume hesjedal was doping.
Do you have an alternative explanation? Do put it forward and explain why it is preferable over the doping explanation.

Like a known doper* has told us, doping makes you ride backwards. The poor performance of Ferrari fueled dragsters is further proof of this.

Dave.

*Possibly a self-serving quote in this instance, of course

 

[sniper]

Like a known doper* has told us, doping makes you ride backwards. The poor performance of Ferrari fueled dragsters is further proof of this.

Dave.

*Possibly a self-serving quote in this instance, of course

it didn't make Ryder ride backwards, that's for sure. He had his best MTB performances while juiced, even Ryder must acknowledge that.
it didn't make Riis, Indurain and Armstrong ride backwards, either.
But otherwise it's a very plausible argument...

Hesjedal reported that 6.07 w/kg in the third week of a GT.
Let's not kid ourselves.

 

[pmcg76]

it didn't make Ryder ride backwards, that's for sure. He had his best MTB performances while juiced, even Ryder must acknowledge that.
it didn't make Riis, Indurain and Armstrong ride backwards, either.
But otherwise it's a very plausible argument...

Hesjedal reported that 6.07 w/kg in the third week of a GT.
Let's not kid ourselves.

Alpe di Pampeago is a relatively short climb, 7km so that figure is not amazing. Over a 12-16km climb in week 3, yes absolutely suspicious.

 

[sniper]

Alpe di Pampeago is a relatively short climb, 7km so that figure is not amazing. Over a 12-16km climb in week 3, yes absolutely suspicious.

I see your point.
But the dopers he left behind on that climb probably think differently.
To see Hesjedal beat more than a handful of talented dopers in a 3-weak GT, that's hard data, in fact as hard as data can possibly get.
Discussing the circumstances in which such performances were delivered from a non-doping perspective (head- vs. tailwind, time and distances covered prior to the actual power measurement, etc.) is interesting, and you're quite good at it (much better than I am) and I appreciate your contributions to that extent. But to even entertain the thought that Ryder won that thing clean, that defies logic and equates ignoring the past 20 years of cycling, imho.
It would be the mystery of the present sports era: why all those dopers couldn't beat a clean Ryder in one of the toughest races of what is perhaps the most demanding endurance sport on earth.

 

[pmcg76]

I see your point.
But the dopers he left behind on that climb probably think differently.
To see Hesjedal beat more than a handful of talented dopers in a 3-weak GT, that's hard data, in fact as hard as data can possibly get.
Discussing the circumstances in which such performances were delivered from a non-doping perspective (head- vs. tailwind, time and distances covered prior to the actual power measurement, etc.) is interesting, and you're quite good at it (much better than I am) and I appreciate your contributions to that extent. But to even entertain the thought that Ryder won that thing clean, that defies logic and equates ignoring the past 20 years of cycling, imho.
It would be the mystery of the present sports era: why all those dopers couldn't beat a clean Ryder in one of the toughest races of what is perhaps the most demanding endurance sport on earth.

People can believe Ryder was doped all they want but each time something is put forward as evidence that is not actual evidence, I will point it out. Doing over 6k on a shortish climb is not really highly suspicious. If you think beating all those guys other is, that is your perogative.

A quick look at the stats for that day would suggest something unusual is at foot as everyone is high so naturally it is the shorter climb. Even if nobody was doping, the power figures for that climb would still be higher than the rest.

 

[the sceptic]

Kreuziger was at 48% hematocrit with a fresh blood bag that day. So that 2012 giro wasn't as cleans as the JV propaganda has led us to believe.

Many dopers have climbed within human limits. It doesn't have to be as obvious as Froome or Riis to raise red flags.

If Hesjedal is so talented that he can beat riders on blood bags and Ferrari clients, why has he never done it again?

 

[the sceptic]

Kreuziger was at 48% hematocrit with a fresh blood bag that day. So that 2012 giro wasn't as cleans as the JV propaganda has led us to believe.

Many dopers have climbed within human limits. It doesn't have to be as obvious as Froome or Riis to raise red flags.

If Hesjedal is so talented that he can beat riders on blood bags and Ferrari clients, why has he never done it again?

good post.

 

[D-Queued]

Alpe di Pampeago is a relatively short climb, 7km so that figure is not amazing. Over a 12-16km climb in week 3, yes absolutely suspicious.

Perhaps it is just me, but 7 km strikes me a respectable length for a climb as long as there is any decent sustained slope to it.

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Perhaps it is just me, but 7 km strikes me a respectable length for a climb as long as there is any decent sustained slope to it.

Dave.

Agreed. Anything over 20 minutes is a sustained effort. It ain't no sprint.

 

[ralphbert]

Perhaps it is just me, but 7 km strikes me a respectable length for a climb as long as there is any decent sustained slope to it.

Dave.

Where is Parker, he can point out that 7k is actually quite easy to ride. So he has read. Somewhere.

 

[blackcat]

Kreuziger was at 48% hematocrit with a fresh blood bag that day. So that 2012 giro wasn't as cleans as the JV propaganda has led us to believe.

Many dopers have climbed within human limits. It doesn't have to be as obvious as Froome or Riis to raise red flags.

If Hesjedal is so talented that he can beat riders on blood bags and Ferrari clients, why has he never done it again?

an ordinary A grader who rides in his local city in US or Australia, could climb within natural limits, but his talent would never justify riding with a professional license and the starting line in a GT.

one needs to baseline the talent, to work out, if what their p/w is not natural.

for someone like Ricco, with otherworldly Merckx Lemond type talent, he would never need doping.

re: Kreuziger's bloodbag, if he only got it the night before, perhaps they screwed up, i thought the MO for bloodbags was rest day, or about 3 days out from the major stages. Cos it takes the body a few days to work out that it is riding on more O2 rocketfuel.

but Race Radio can correct me if i am wrong, which i often am. *and that was just a rule of thumb.

dead serious about Ricco tho. dont take his name in vain, dont h8 on Ricky Riccio. no one h8s on Ricky Riccio

 

[the delgados]

an ordinary A grader who rides in his local city in US or Australia, could climb within natural limits, but his talent would never justify riding with a professional license and the starting line in a GT.

one needs to baseline the talent, to work out, if what their p/w is not natural.

for someone like Ricco, with otherworldly Merckx Lemond type talent, he would never need doping.

re: Kreuziger's bloodbag, if he only got it the night before, perhaps they screwed up, i thought the MO for bloodbags was rest day, or about 3 days out from the major stages. Cos it takes the body a few days to work out that it is riding on more O2 rocketfuel.

but Race Radio can correct me if i am wrong, which i often am. *and that was just a rule of thumb.

dead serious about Ricco tho. dont take his name in vain, dont h8 on Ricky Riccio. no one h8s on Ricky Riccio

Sorry to interrupt, but I have nothing to say here other than that these boards needs a "like" option.
blackcat is awesome.
Carry on.

 

[Benotti69]

Sorry to interrupt, but I have nothing to say here other than that these boards needs a "like" option.
blackcat is awesome.
Carry on.

I agree Blackcat is the dog!

 

[blackcat]

I agree Blackcat is the dog!

Schroedinger.

at once scythingly accurate, at once not without the funnies

 

[Race Radio]

re: Kreuziger's bloodbag, if he only got it the night before, perhaps they screwed up, i thought the MO for bloodbags was rest day, or about 3 days out from the major stages. Cos it takes the body a few days to work out that it is riding on more O2 rocketfuel.

but Race Radio can correct me if i am wrong, which i often am. *and that was just a rule of thumb.

You are correct. I am puzzled by the timing as well.