Ryder's blood

[sniper]

Any relevant rider is a doper according to you anyway, so why should a clean rider care about Ryder winning Giro?

ca. 90% dopers, i'd guess.
clean riders in the bus.

 

[pmcg76]

Watch the stage and find out, maybe? Why do you think Mayo won by such a large margin? Armstrong chased down all of his rivals whenever they attacked, so his group mostly just looked at each other instead of racing. Armstrong himself said that he really regretted his tactics that day, suggesting that he could have climbed l'Alpe significantly faster that day (to gain more time on Ullrich instead of focusing on Hamilton etc) if he tried.

I don't see you post here often so I realise you might not realise it was a rhetorical question for the benefit of others.

Too many people here like to compare times from year to another without taking things like race tactics into question. This was a very obvious example.

 

[sniper]

Any relevant rider is a doper according to you anyway, so why should a clean rider care about Ryder winning Giro?

not just according to me, but according to many with a sense of reality.
Di Luca said 90%, which strikes me as plausible. And recall he's considered one of the best informants CONI have ever had.
And there are some with a harder stance. Prosecutor Torri, for instance:

"The longer I'm involved in this, the more I marvel at how widespread doping is," Torri said. "And I don't think it will be eradicated. Because it just evolves continuously. There are new substances coming out that can't be tested for."
...
"I'm not the only one saying it. Lately, all of the cyclists I've interrogated have said that everyone dopes," he told The Associated Press on Tuesday.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...rands-all-riders-as-dopers.aspx#ixzz3M9GP5luf

Now tell me on what grounds do you want to question Torri's credibility and judgement?

 

[pmcg76]

not just according to me, but according to many with a sense of reality.
Di Luca said 90%, which strikes me as plausible. And recall he's considered one of the best informants CONI have ever had.
And there are some with a harder stance. Prosecutor Torri, for instance:

Now tell me on what grounds do you want to question Torri's credibility and judgement?

The same way a rider with a clean reputation did. Even from the same article.

“If you interrogate rider connected with doping, what did you expect them to say?” the Bike Pure supporter asked on his Twitter feed. “They prefer to hide behind the belief "everyone is doping"

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...rands-all-riders-as-dopers.aspx#ixzz3M9M2ECFw

Armstong throws this line out all the time and is roundly criticised for trying to trivialise his own guilt. Lots will do the same by taking the same line.

Armstong justified Motoman in 99 because he believed every other team would have their own versions of Motoman. Did they? Well only a handful of riders on Postal had access to Motoman(Armstong, Hamilton, Livingston) so it was clear not everybody had a Motoman.

It is far easier to rationalise and justify things in your own mind if you believe everyone else is doing the same. Social welfare fraud in Ireland was pretty big a few years back but a lot of people justified it because everyone was doing it even though that was far from true.

It's a natural human trait to try and minimise responsibility for one's own action by shifting the blame to others.

 

[sniper]

The same way a rider with a clean reputation did. Even from the same article.

“If you interrogate rider connected with doping, what did you expect them to say?” the Bike Pure supporter asked on his Twitter feed. “They prefer to hide behind the belief "everyone is doping"

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...rands-all-riders-as-dopers.aspx#ixzz3M9M2ECFw

Armstong throws this line out all the time and is roundly criticised for trying to trivialise his own guilt. Lots will do the same by taking the same line.

Armstong justified Motoman in 99 because he believed every other team would have their own versions of Motoman. Did they? Well only a handful of riders on Postal had access to Motoman(Armstong, Hamilton, Livingston) so it was clear not everybody had a Motoman.

It is far easier to rationalise and justify things in your own mind if you believe everyone else is doing the same. Social welfare fraud in Ireland was pretty big a few years back but a lot of people justified it because everyone was doing it even though that was far from true.

It's a natural human trait to try and minimise responsibility for one's own action by shifting the blame to others.

but what if all the evidence points to those estimates being correct?
we know for soccer, tennis and athletics that all podiums are doped. You're suggesting that for cycling it's somehow less clear? On what grounds?
Armstrogn is criticised. But nobody doubts all the important players in his period were doped.
When a criminal gets busted robbing a bank, does he claim everybody robs banks?

Torri has questioned these people under oath (I assume) and under anonimity (at least most, I assume).
I think he's been in a decent position to judge the credibility of their statements.
As he says in the interview, the more cyclists he's spoken to, the more convinced he's become that doping is widespread.
Why do you think Torri would not be able to make that judgement?
More to the point: do you think he's wrong, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

 

[sniper]

The same way a rider with a clean reputation did. Even from the same article.

“If you interrogate rider connected with doping, what did you expect them to say?” the Bike Pure supporter asked on his Twitter feed. “They prefer to hide behind the belief "everyone is doping"

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...rands-all-riders-as-dopers.aspx#ixzz3M9M2ECFw

Armstong throws this line out all the time and is roundly criticised for trying to trivialise his own guilt. Lots will do the same by taking the same line.

Armstong justified Motoman in 99 because he believed every other team would have their own versions of Motoman. Did they? Well only a handful of riders on Postal had access to Motoman(Armstong, Hamilton, Livingston) so it was clear not everybody had a Motoman.

It is far easier to rationalise and justify things in your own mind if you believe everyone else is doing the same. Social welfare fraud in Ireland was pretty big a few years back but a lot of people justified it because everyone was doing it even though that was far from true.

It's a natural human trait to try and minimise responsibility for one's own action by shifting the blame to others.

and again, isn't Torri able to make such judgements? He's questioned these people under oath (I assume) and anonimity. I think he's been in a decent position to judge the credibility of these riders' statements.
As he says in the interview, the more cyclists he's spoken to, the more convinced he's become that doping is widespread.
Why do you think Torri would not be able to make that judgement?
More to the point: do you think he's wrong?

 

[pmcg76]

but what if all the evidence points to those estimates being correct?
we know for soccer, tennis and athletics that all podiums are doped. You're suggesting that for cycling it's somehow less clear? On what grounds?
Armstrogn is criticised. But nobody doubts all the important players in his period were doped.
When a criminal gets busted robbing a bank, does he claim everybody robs banks?

Torri has questioned these people under oath (I assume) and under anonimity (at least most, I assume).
I think he's been in a decent position to judge the credibility of their statements.
As he says in the interview, the more cyclists he's spoken to, the more convinced he's become that doping is widespread.
Why do you think Torri would not be able to make that judgement?
More to the point: do you think he's wrong, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

How many cyclists has Torri spoken to, 10/20/30, nobody knows but if he is speaking to dopers all the time and they are all trotting out that line, then of course you are going to get a certain impression even though it might be distorted. Also if Torri has spoken to so many admitted dopers, why are we seeing so few sanctioned? Clearly he never talked with Pinotti. Why not?

Even now you are retracting from saying everyone dopes to narrowing it down to major contenders. How many major contenders are there? Torri said everyone doped and that was 2010.

Comparing doping to robbing a bank is a really bad example as robbing a bank is on a far higher crime scale than doping. Why not go the full way and compare doping to murder. Also we know doping was very common and still happening, I don't think robbing banks was ever a common occurance in that 80/90% of people were doing it.

Look, Di Luca says 90% of the Giro peloton were doped but that everyone was now doing it privately so how does he arrive at the 90% figure, thats right, he is assuming and just throwing out a figure. As I said before Di Luca is a hard-core doper who would baulk at the idea of ever riding clean so of course he finds the idea of others riding clean as impossible. Dopers Mentality.
Thus the everyone else is doping mentality.

 

[sniper]

How many cyclists has Torri spoken to, 10/20/30, nobody knows but if he is speaking to dopers all the time and they are all trotting out that line, then of course you are going to get a certain impression even though it might be distorted. Also if Torri has spoken to so many admitted dopers, why are we seeing so few sanctioned? Clearly he never talked with Pinotti. Why not?

Even now you are retracting from saying everyone dopes to narrowing it down to major contenders. How many major contenders are there? Torri said everyone doped and that was 2010.

where did I say that? strawman 1.

Comparing doping to robbing a bank is a really bad example as robbing a bank is on a far higher crime scale than doping. Why not go the full way and compare doping to murder. Also we know doping was very common and still happening, I don't think robbing banks was ever a common occurance in that 80/90% of people were doing it.

I;m ot comparing doping to robbing a bank. Strawman 2.
I'm just saying if you get caught in a crime, whatever crime, you don't necessarily claim everybody's doing it. You might, but not necessarily. What you're doing is discrediting the whistleblowers, even though all evidence points to them being correct.

Look, Di Luca says 90% of the Giro peloton were doped but that everyone was now doing it privately so how does he arrive at the 90% figure, thats right, he is assuming and just throwing out a figure. As I said before Di Luca is a hard-core doper who would baulk at the idea of ever riding clean so of course he finds the idea of others riding clean as impossible. Dopers Mentality.
Thus the everyone else is doping mentality.

why are you speaking for Di Luca?
Let's stick with the facts.
DOping is pervasive in topsports, and was pervasive in cycling for a long long time. If you have any indications that there was a cultural change in the last few years, do by all means post the evidence.
Otherwise let's not discredit those who talk common sense.

 

[blackcat]

The same way a rider with a clean reputation did. Even from the same article.

“If you interrogate rider connected with doping, what did you expect them to say?” the Bike Pure supporter asked on his Twitter feed. “They prefer to hide behind the belief "everyone is doping"

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...rands-all-riders-as-dopers.aspx#ixzz3M9M2ECFw

Armstong throws this line out all the time and is roundly criticised for trying to trivialise his own guilt. Lots will do the same by taking the same line.

Armstong justified Motoman in 99 because he believed every other team would have their own versions of Motoman. Did they? Well only a handful of riders on Postal had access to Motoman(Armstong, Hamilton, Livingston) so it was clear not everybody had a Motoman.

It is far easier to rationalise and justify things in your own mind if you believe everyone else is doing the same. Social welfare fraud in Ireland was pretty big a few years back but a lot of people justified it because everyone was doing it even though that was far from true.

It's a natural human trait to try and minimise responsibility for one's own action by shifting the blame to others.

most had moto-Edita Rumsas.

moto-woman.

Betsy Andreu was exception that proves the rule.

 

[blackcat]

How many cyclists has Torri spoken to, 10/20/30, nobody knows but if he is speaking to dopers all the time and they are all trotting out that line, then of course you are going to get a certain impression even though it might be distorted. Also if Torri has spoken to so many admitted dopers, why are we seeing so few sanctioned? Clearly he never talked with Pinotti. Why not?

Even now you are retracting from saying everyone dopes to narrowing it down to major contenders. How many major contenders are there? Torri said everyone doped and that was 2010.

Comparing doping to robbing a bank is a really bad example as robbing a bank is on a far higher crime scale than doping. Why not go the full way and compare doping to murder. Also we know doping was very common and still happening, I don't think robbing banks was ever a common occurance in that 80/90% of people were doing it.

Look, Di Luca says 90% of the Giro peloton were doped but that everyone was now doing it privately so how does he arrive at the 90% figure, thats right, he is assuming and just throwing out a figure. As I said before Di Luca is a hard-core doper who would baulk at the idea of ever riding clean so of course he finds the idea of others riding clean as impossible. Dopers Mentality.
Thus the everyone else is doping mentality.

i reckon pinotti doped too

only cleans rider, is riccio ricco

 

[pmcg76]

where did I say that? strawman 1.
I;m ot comparing doping to robbing a bank. Strawman 2.
I'm just saying if you get caught in a crime, whatever crime, you don't necessarily claim everybody's doing it. You might, but not necessarily. What you're doing is discrediting the whistleblowers, even though all evidence points to them being correct.

why are you speaking for Di Luca?
Let's stick with the facts.
DOping is pervasive in topsports, and was pervasive in cycling for a long long time. If you have any indications that there was a cultural change in the last few years, do by all means post the evidence.
Otherwise let's not discredit those who talk common sense.

Well if you put forward an example of someone saying everyone dopes and you agree with this, then you are backing that claim. How is that a strawman?
Are you agreeing with Torri or not?

Likewise if you believe Di Lucas claim. Not a strawman.



Why put forward a crime that is not very common, also all crimes are not equal. If you want a strawman, your example was a strawman. Why not put forward speeding for example. That would be more in line with doping. If you don't put forward dumb comparisons you won't get called on them

Finally you are assuming that doping is pervasive in topsports, you don't know that. It is not a 'fact' so claiming it as a such is pointless. Acknowledging that doping exists in sport is closer to a fact but to what extent is just speculation and opinion.

Asking someone to show a change in the sport is akin to asking you to show that 90% of the Giro field were doping. Can you do it? Also pointless as you are not willing to accept the possibility of clean athletes so why bother.

Marco Pinotti had a clean reputation and finished Top 10 in the Giro. Do you believe that?

 

[sniper]

Well if you put forward an example of someone saying everyone dopes and you agree with this, then you are backing that claim. How is that a strawman?

if yo continue trhowing about strawmen, there's not much to discuss. This is how I introduced Torri's quote:

Di Luca said 90%, which strikes me as plausible. And recall he's considered one of the best informants CONI have ever had.
And there are some with a harder stance

like Torri.

Likewise if you believe Di Lucas claim. Not a strawman.
Why put forward a crime that is not very common, also all crimes are not equal. If you want a strawman, your example was a strawman. Why not put forward speeding for example. That would be more in line with doping. If you don't put forward dumb comparisons you won't get called on them

ok, let's take speeding. If you're caught speeding will you claim everyone is speeding? Hardly. Well some may, but certainly not most. (And i disagree speeding is a good analogy, since the consequences of getting caught are far less severe)

Finally you are assuming that doping is pervasive in topsports, you don't know that. It is not a 'fact' so claiming it as a such is pointless.

If you want any normal discussion, you take as a starting point that doping is pervasive in topsports. Not acknowledging that doesn't add anything to a fruitful thoughtprocess.

Acknowledging that doping exists in sport is closer to a fact but to what extent is just speculation and opinion.

Stop pretending recent history isn't a thing to go by. So no, it's not just opinion. Speculation, yes, but well-informed speculation, while based on very recent historical facts and a bit of common sense.

 

[Benotti69]

Well if you put forward an example of someone saying everyone dopes and you agree with this, then you are backing that claim. How is that a strawman?
Are you agreeing with Torri or not?

Likewise if you believe Di Lucas claim. Not a strawman.



Why put forward a crime that is not very common, also all crimes are not equal. If you want a strawman, your example was a strawman. Why not put forward speeding for example. That would be more in line with doping. If you don't put forward dumb comparisons you won't get called on them

Finally you are assuming that doping is pervasive in topsports, you don't know that. It is not a 'fact' so claiming it as a such is pointless. Acknowledging that doping exists in sport is closer to a fact but to what extent is just speculation and opinion.

Asking someone to show a change in the sport is akin to asking you to show that 90% of the Giro field were doping. Can you do it? Also pointless as you are not willing to accept the possibility of clean athletes so why bother.

Marco Pinotti had a clean reputation and finished Top 10 in the Giro. Do you believe that?

While some would liek to believe this to be the case, it is a false economy, because the test works only when federations deem it to work or actually bother to target test someone who upset them while the rest get a free pass.

In cycling we have seen the various police authorities do the best anti doping jobs. So if the sporting federations are not bothered to clean up the sport why believe that people in the sport want to compete clean?

Why would a guy train 6 hours a day knowing it will only be down to a massive slice of luck that he wins a race, lottery like luck? Do people really believe that there are guys out there who as juniors and u23 riders gave up normal life to ride in the WT and be happy clean not competing because they need to juice to be in with a chance. I dont see anybody having that mindset, that they find the top is a circus and no one cares whether they are clean, but that they can put in a performance whether to fetch bidons, capes, etc or can get in a break.

I cannot see any team WT owners being happy to have guys in their team who wont dope when there are 10 riders willing to do anything for a place and on dope can give their team a better chance for more sponsors and money. At the end of the day money rules professional sport and doping is tied into providing a performance for the sponsors and money.

JV knows that better than anyone.

 

[westerner]

Steve Tilford going off again. Blog post could go in a few threads. But Ryder does figure prominently. Also Steve talks about an arrogant manager and a dirty O'Neil on the HealthNet road team in 2007 (I think), when one Ryder Hesjedal was a member of this squad too. Hmmmmmmm.

"Ryder Hesjedal and all his Canadian buddies ****ed up MTB racing here in the US. Nearly all the European guys that came over then were doping too. Michael Rasmussen, Jerome Chiotti, and tons of others came here and took our sponorship money and won our races. Then all the foreigners, that our domestic teams readily hired on the road. The Nathan O’neils and Ivan Stevics. And there still are a ton of them riding around now. Each and every race. These guys, that are arrogant, and have brought unbelievably dangerous tactics into criteriums, but are doping to control the races. It’s a joke."

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Steve Tilford going off again. Also Steve talks about an arrogant manager and a dirty O'Neil on the HealthNet road team in 2007 (I think), when one Ryder Hesjedal was a member of this squad too.

Does O'Neill still work for Specialized? He certainly landed softly.

 

[burning]

not just according to me, but according to many with a sense of reality.
Di Luca said 90%, which strikes me as plausible. And recall he's considered one of the best informants CONI have ever had.
And there are some with a harder stance. Prosecutor Torri, for instance:

Now tell me on what grounds do you want to question Torri's credibility and judgement?

I agree that most of the riders dope but this does not change that you refused to answer my question. Let me ask again, why a clean rider has to be disgusted specifically to see Ryder winning Giro? The winners are all dopers anyway.

 

[Benotti69]

Steve Tilford going off again. Blog post could go in a few threads. But Ryder does figure prominently. Also Steve talks about an arrogant manager and a dirty O'Neil on the HealthNet road team in 2007 (I think), when one Ryder Hesjedal was a member of this squad too. Hmmmmmmm.

"Ryder Hesjedal and all his Canadian buddies ****ed up MTB racing here in the US. Nearly all the European guys that came over then were doping too. Michael Rasmussen, Jerome Chiotti, and tons of others came here and took our sponorship money and won our races. Then all the foreigners, that our domestic teams readily hired on the road. The Nathan O’neils and Ivan Stevics. And there still are a ton of them riding around now. Each and every race. These guys, that are arrogant, and have brought unbelievably dangerous tactics into criteriums, but are doping to control the races. It’s a joke."

Tilford has been around a lot. He has one blind spot, BMC, but apart from that he calls it

Do you realize the Festina doping scandal was in 1998. That was 16 years ago and nothing has changed. Well, something has changed. It has been driven underground and the politically correct way for current road pros to deal with it is by saying that we need to believe now, because this is a new generation and that was the old generation. But, they are full of ****. Each and every week a new guy get busted for doping. And these aren’t the guys that are smearing everyone on any level.

.....

This denial thing by current riders isn’t working. This disapproving of doping, by the public isn’t working. This biological passport thing isn’t working. This all needed to be addressed back in 1998, but it hasn’t. It’s been business as usual.

 

[thehog]

Ryder Hesjedal and all his Canadian buddies ****ed up MTB racing here in the US. Nearly all the European guys that came over then were doping too. Michael Rasmussen, Jerome Chiotti, and tons of others came here and took our sponorship money and won our races. Then all the foreigners, that our domestic teams readily hired on the road. The Nathan O’neils and Ivan Stevics. And there still are a ton of them riding around now. Each and every race. These guys, that are arrogant, and have brought unbelievably dangerous tactics into criteriums, but are doping to control the races. It’s a joke.

Its good....

 

[D-Queued]

Steve Tilford going off again. Blog post could go in a few threads. But Ryder does figure prominently. Also Steve talks about an arrogant manager and a dirty O'Neil on the HealthNet road team in 2007 (I think), when one Ryder Hesjedal was a member of this squad too. Hmmmmmmm.

...

Ha ha! He almost sounds like Carl Lewis:

Then the Canadians started doing the same, back here in North America. It was such an insult to us, the US MTB riders

Damn, dirty Canadians!

Speaking of which, on that O'Neill / Healthnet flame why doesn't he pick up and extend his rant on dirty Canucks, and try and connect a few dots given recent news?

Wasn't one of the stars on Healthnet a Canadian who now manages the team that sported the most recent Canadian EPO & Clenbuterol positive?

Just asking.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

Some have made the argument about clean riders winning big races.

One example was Bassons Dauphine stage win in '99.

Bassons in his book talks about being given the win as it would help fool the public.

Ryder cleans to win a Giro in 2012. NEVER!

 

[pmcg76]

Some have made the argument about clean riders winning big races.

One example was Bassons Dauphine stage win in '99.

Bassons in his book talks about being given the win as it would help fool the public.

Ryder cleans to win a Giro in 2012. NEVER!

So why did Bassons say that? Where did he get that idea from?

"I learned a little more about this epsiode many years later, in 2012 in fact when I was reading through the report put together by Travis Tygart....

According to testimony of Jonathon Vaughters, Armstrongs team-mate and overall winner of the 1999 Dauphine Libere, Armstrong had wanted to lead the pursuit behind me that day. 'Lance did not like Bassons outspokenenss about doping, and Lance frequently made fun of him in a very merciless and venomous fashion, much like a playground bully'. Vaughters had managed to dissuade him from expending his energy in this little revenge mission, arguing that I was a long way down the classification."

Christophe Bassons, A Clean Break

Who would have thought it, Benotti buying from the snake-oil salesman Silly boy.

 

[thehog]

Vaughters = Grain of salt.

 

[Benotti69]

So why did Bassons say that? Where did he get that idea from?

"I learned a little more about this epsiode many years later, in 2012 in fact when I was reading through the report put together by Travis Tygart....

According to testimony of Jonathon Vaughters, Armstrongs team-mate and overall winner of the 1999 Dauphine Libere, Armstrong had wanted to lead the pursuit behind me that day. 'Lance did not like Bassons outspokenenss about doping, and Lance frequently made fun of him in a very merciless and venomous fashion, much like a playground bully'. Vaughters had managed to dissuade him from expending his energy in this little revenge mission, arguing that I was a long way down the classification."

Christophe Bassons, A Clean Break

Who would have thought it, Benotti buying from the snake-oil salesman Silly boy.

You are the one saying the Bassons stage win was proof that a 'talent' can beat EPO users and using it as evidence that Dan Martin could beat the likes of Purito in LBL or Piti at GdL clean when we know these guys dope and dope hard to win big races.

So Bassons dismisses his stage win in the '99 Dauphine as a sham and you got nothing but to say but call names. Wonder who is hurting?

 

[pmcg76]

You are the one saying the Bassons stage win was proof that a 'talent' can beat EPO users and using it as evidence that Dan Martin could beat the likes of Purito in LBL or Piti at GdL clean when we know these guys dope and dope hard to win big races.

So Bassons dismisses his stage win in the '99 Dauphine as a sham and you got nothing but to say but call names. Wonder who is hurting?

No I am pointing out that you constantly call JV a snake-oil salesman but are now using a story fron JV to show that Bassons was gifted a stage win. You are buying what JV is selling.

Why I would be hurting when I have the lovely Riccardo Ricco saying this

“It’s cleaner now but not completely clean,” the 31-year-old told Tutto Bici.

“You can [race a grand tour clean]. I did in 2006 at the Tour de France. Winning it clean? A one-day classic, yes..”

Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...our-without-doping_356359#wg47my8IIiBtBQLZ.99

 

[blackcat]

No I am pointing out that you constantly call JV a snake-oil salesman but are now using a story fron JV to show that Bassons was gifted a stage win. You are buying what JV is selling.

Why I would be hurting when I have the lovely Riccardo Ricco saying this

“It’s cleaner now but not completely clean,” the 31-year-old told Tutto Bici.

“You can [race a grand tour clean]. I did in 2006 at the Tour de France. Winning it clean? A one-day classic, yes..”

Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...our-without-doping_356359#wg47my8IIiBtBQLZ.99

yeah, we dont believe ricky riccio.

as much as i luv cobra lower case, cobra could only get a gig at Saunier Duval after the espoirs because of the stench surrounding him. and we know teams are not too discerning as it is, so he must have had a stench.

but i still luv cobra. he is cobra, and he declared his own nickname. /respect