Ryders crash -motor?

[GoodTimes]

Hi MacRoadie,

Fair enough.

Perhaps I am coming from an 'already knowing' attitude.

And, I will admit that is a problem. For me, at least.

My inclination is that if someone were to pitch this technology (not the application, just the technology) in a business plan they would be laughed out of the room.

IMHO, it would be a chase down the rabbit hole to start discussing torque, rpm, brushless dc, operating voltages, duty cycles, intermittent versus continuous, Voltage/Current discharge curves, etc.

Here are a couple of truisms:

1. Higher voltage is better than lower voltage, especially for electro-mechanical purposes. Higher voltage requires more/bigger batteries. Higher voltage also allows for SMALLER components on a weight/output basis.

2. Semiconductors can operate at low voltages. Batteries for cell phones are powering semiconductor devices, not electro-mechanical devices.

Here is a useful chart:

This represents the batteries only.

Please note that whether evaluated on a power or energy density basis, lithium batteries run around 100 w/kg for a one hour duty cycle. This agrees with what GoodTimes has noted above.

It is critical, however, to respect that scaling is non-linear. In other words, you cannot expect to get a 1 watt system for 10 grams. This is particularly true on the electromechanical (i.e. motor) side.

When GoodTimes makes "conclusions" with no background in the field, and no true understanding of the complexities involved, I suppose it strikes a chord.

"I concluded that a battery to power this would be ~ 90g. Since then, more complete and wider information about lithium ion batteries has come to light. I would revise the estimate to be more like ~ 250g (more conservative) or 125 g (more optimistic). This is based on the same technology and chemistry that is commercially available and on the marketplace, today. ..."

Here is a quote from Daimler's R&D Director that I recall very well: "This is the first electrochemical device we have ever tested that actually met its performance spec." In other words, electrochemistry is the home of modern day snake oil.

If GoodTimes were to invest about four to five more years of research into this area (i.e. after Malcom Gladwell's Outliers 10,000 hour rule of thumb), then I would likely be a lot less dismissive.

In fact, if GoodTimes could truly demonstrate this device I could probably point him towards some VC money and set him on a path to becoming the next billionaire.

Dave.

Hi Dave, appreciate the fuller picture.

RE pitching a business plan, or demonstrating the device... never my intention. Looking to muse on a forum, for fun I might add, and offer some facts, and some conjecture? Ya, that's about where we are at.

Re smaller batteries being less space and weight efficient... this was acknowledged. Do you think it was not acknowledged sufficiently? That's something that could be explored. Note that I referenced the spec sheet of a commercially available battery, that had slightly lower energy than what I considered a requirement, that was within the energy - mass ratio that I was using.

RE smaller motors being less weight efficient.... this was acknowledged. Based on the design that you referenced for me earlier, I reduced motor power by a factor of 8, and reduced motor weight by a factor of 2 or 3 (can't remember now...). Do you think this was overly optimistic?

RE devices not meeting their specs, I am familiar. My calculation assumed 75% efficiency from the battery [and 75% efficiency from the motor]. Do you think this is too high? Well, I'm willing to hear you on that one--I admitted, up front, that this number was plucked out of thin air based on my experience as a starting point for discussion.

RE 10000 hours on the topic of battery capacity? Well admittedly I come up short of that. I have never sold my work as that of an expert.

RE making conclusions without a background? I have a relevant university degree, and am practicing engineering in an area relevant to the conversation of complex dynamic mechanical systems, and have a decent working knowledge of motors. I have worked in the past doing engineering and design of systems that use / charge / test various battery types, however admittedly am not an expert.

But what, pray tell, do you do exactly? Do you ever offer opinions, conclusions, or facts on topics for which you have fewer than 10k hrs experience?

 

[proffate]

I really don't know how to gear, drive or what loss mechanically an extra 20-40W from a motor requires. I am pretty sure from that experience it would make a difference if triggered at the right moment.

don't think anyone's debating that... 20-40w is another 0.5w/kg and everyone knows that's easily the difference between winning and 10th in a GT.

 

[Gavandope]

Sure there's always going to be a higher initial demand when a motor is first energized, but isn't inrush current reduced by reducing the load on the motor at startup? Motor's in compressors are notorious for high initial demands, thus the need for startup capacitors.

What happens if there's actually a "negative" load, I.E. the rotor is already moving by means of the rider's input?

Also, maybe "bursts" is a bit too flowery. Maybe "incremental increases in power" would be better.

The negative load is where the electronic clutch would play its part disengaging the motor when it's not needed. I've yet to read up all this thread but has regenerative braking been added into the mix to charge the cell?

I was quite fortunate to have a private visit to McLaren special operations in June where I saw a p1 in bits and was shown how that hybrid technology works. I had to sign an NDA

 

[GoodTimes]

The negative load is where the electronic clutch would play its part disengaging the motor when it's not needed. I've yet to read up all this thread but has regenerative braking been added into the mix to charge the cell?

I was quite fortunate to have a private visit to McLaren special operations in June where I saw a p1 in bits and was shown how that hybrid technology works. I had to sign an NDA

McLaren visit would be interesting.

Regeneration had a mention earlier on. The thought was that going downhill may provide the opportunity for it. It was actually used in the context of accusing Ryder for having his motor on while descending. Nobody took it much further than that.

Electronic clutch... I need to think about it more, but intuitively think that (assuming a DC motor of course) a schottky diode on the input to the motor would do the same thing. EDIT: maybe not, would the motor be a electromagnetic brake while not powered? More thought needed...

Inrush current... really not a big concern for this sort of small voltage, small current, DC system. I would be amazed if the expectedly short duration of inrush would damage the battery. If so, can be resolved with passive L-C network on output of batteyr, or via more elegant solution if you had a big enough problem (which i don't think you'd have...).

 

[Gavandope]

McLaren visit would be interesting.

Regeneration had a mention earlier on. The thought was that going downhill may provide the opportunity for it. It was actually used in the context of accusing Ryder for having his motor on while descending. Nobody took it much further than that.

Electronic clutch... I need to think about it more, but intuitively think that (assuming a DC motor of course) a schottky diode on the input to the motor would do the same thing.

Inrush current... really not a big concern for this sort of small voltage, small current, DC system. I would be amazed if the expectedly short duration of inrush would damage the battery. If so, can be resolved with passive L-C network on output of batteyr.

I've been on the standard factory tour but special operations was truly something else. It was a week or so before the milli miglia and there were 9 f1's, 4 p1's including the one in bits. A white F1 my son sat in crashed over in Italy the following week - $600k damage! Though 'allegedly' the owner from the Far East has matching white MP4-12c and the McLaren Mercedes SLR coupe and can easily afford the bill! Two other vehicles there that I cannot comment on full stop. There were McLaren cycles there too and the topic of a powered bike came up - they shot it down in flames pretty much the same as I have. The current cells like in the p1 aren't up to powering a bike fast or for long..

 

[Granville57]

The certainly do not frequently cut the frame apart. They could, if they suspected something. But... I dont think they would do this just on a whim.

Could they?

I raised this question earlier in the thread (but things are moving somewhat quickly here). Does the UCI actually have the authority to, essentially, destroy property that belongs to a team? Can you imagine Tinkoff standing by idly as a UCI official attempts to dissect one of Contador's frames with a Dremel?

Or anyone at Trek, BMC or Cannondale?

Can the UCI do that?

 

[Gavandope]

Could they?

I raised this question earlier in the thread (but things are moving somewhat quickly here). Does the UCI actually have the authority to, essentially, destroy property that belongs to a team? Can you imagine Tinkoff standing by idly as a UCI official attempts to dissect one of Contador's frames with a Dremel?

Or anyone at Trek, BMC or Cannondale?

Can the UCI do that?

I would be shocked if they haven't though knowing how incompetent they are with everything else maybe they haven't lol. In Motorsports the FIA have carte Blanche to rip anything to shreds as long as the parties have witnesses on the inspections. Hence why it's produced the gems like the brake cooling system which would lose all the large mass of the water within a few laps and magically weight would disappear

 

[Oldman]

I've been on the standard factory tour but special operations was truly something else. It was a week or so before the milli miglia and there were 9 f1's, 4 p1's including the one in bits. A white F1 my son sat in crashed over in Italy the following week - $600k damage! Though 'allegedly' the owner from the Far East has matching white MP4-12c and the McLaren Mercedes SLR coupe and can easily afford the bill! Two other vehicles there that I cannot comment on full stop. There were McLaren cycles there too and the topic of a powered bike came up - they shot it down in flames pretty much the same as I have. The current cells like in the p1 aren't up to powering a bike fast or for long..

Considering that at what rider effort could it contribute usefully in the best of circumstances? I've asked this before but how could you add a meaningful contribution to a rider putting out 300-400+ watts for any duration (or at all)? Assuming they could they'd need to mechanically supplement the effort in some way, wouldn't they?

 

[Gavandope]

Considering that at what rider effort could it contribute usefully in the best of circumstances? I've asked this before but how could you add a meaningful contribution to a rider putting out 300-400+ watts for any duration (or at all)? Assuming they could they'd need to mechanically supplement the effort in some way, wouldn't they?

Sadly the conversation didn't last long - I asked the question about the bike and the tech answered. At the time my ears were still recovering from a 15 million dollar plus orange F1 LM being revved very hard and I was standing right next to a prototype I can say absolutely nothing about on the internet

I was allowed to take a sound recording of the LM on my iPhone, I will see if I can attach that to this post when I get back on the MacBook Pro. You will have to excuse my laughter in the recording it sounded that good!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ex8wmvpvajagbst/F1-LM.m4a?dl=0

 

[GoodTimes]

Sadly the conversation didn't last long - I asked the question about the bike and the tech answered. At the time my ears were still recovering from a 15 million dollar plus orange F1 LM being revved very hard and I was standing right next to a prototype I can say absolutely nothing about on the internet

I was allowed to take a sound recording of the LM on my iPhone, I will see if I can attach that to this post when I get back on the MacBook Pro. You will have to excuse my laughter in the recording it sounded that good!

I'm not a car guy, but as a mech eng I still am drooling with envy. I better not mention this experience of yours to my boss, who is both a cycling fan & a major f1 junky.

PS: I prefer women, but I always take getting groped by a big dude over passing thru the x-ray machine.

 

[Gavandope]

I'm not a car guy, but as a mech eng I still am drooling with envy. I better not mention this experience of yours to my boss, who is both a cycling fan & a major f1 junky.

PS: I prefer women, but I always take getting groped by a big dude over passing thru the x-ray machine.

It was an amazing day out, unforgettable. Two spray booths that were so clean you could eat your dinner off the floor lol. Owners of cars I cannot mention, including a very well known American fashion designer, footballers though one I will blurt out. Mr Beans very own F1, the most expensive insurance motor claim ever in the UK when he smacked the whole rear end off and the engine flew out!

He would be even greener if he saw any of the alleged 80 odd unauthorised photos someone may have took. The prime suspect will never email them but if you're in South London I'm sure an iPad album viewing could be arranged

So if McLaren says a proper powered bike can't be done yet with the power cells we have now who am I to disagree?

 

[Oldman]

It was an amazing day out, unforgettable. Two spray booths that were so clean you could eat your dinner off the floor lol. Owners of cars I cannot mention, including a very well known American fashion designer, footballers though one I will blurt out. Mr Beans very own F1, the most expensive insurance motor claim ever in the UK when he smacked the whole rear end off and the engine flew out!

He would be even greener if he saw any of the alleged 80 odd unauthorised photos someone may have took. The prime suspect will never email them but if you're in South London I'm sure an iPad album viewing could be arranged

So if McLaren says a proper powered bike can't be done yet with the power cells we have now who am I to disagree?

That was my assertion last year. The motor is possible. A rider with a high output is possible. How do you provide an assist to that high output sustainably enough to do something with it? Never got a direct answer which suggests Joe Pro doesn't have the means to do it either.
Maybe Sky has the budget...

 

[Gavandope]

That was my assertion last year. The motor is possible. A rider with a high output is possible. How do you provide an assist to that high output sustainably enough to do something with it? Never got a direct answer which suggests Joe Pro doesn't have the means to do it either.
Maybe Sky has the budget...

The motor technology is there, so too are the electronics to manage it properly. Only thing lacking is the power source to provide the oomph, enough of it for long enough and light enough.

The cell technology improvements will most likely come from the Motorsport industry. If you have some time to watch the formula e preview show for the world electric street race series that starts on Saturday in China you will see as far as the power is concerned we still have a long way to go. Williams F1 have designed the pack, the show briefly shows it's construction but they have to swap cars mid way through the race as they simply don't have the capacity to last more than half a race!

 

[GoodTimes]

That was my assertion last year. The motor is possible. A rider with a high output is possible. How do you provide an assist to that high output sustainably enough to do something with it? Never got a direct answer which suggests Joe Pro doesn't have the means to do it either.
Maybe Sky has the budget...

Hello Oldman,

Though the matter is far from settled, and certainly not ready to pitch to a boardroom of investors, I believe that i have shown that a 25W motor assist would be a winning advantage in terms of W/kg on a tough climb (think 6.4 vs 6.0), and that this sort of motor could be powered for 1hr with a battery weighing 250 g, or less.

I think Gavan is referring to the sort of breakthru that would allow for either a much longer battery life, a much more powerful motor, or a much lighter battery pack. Such an improvement would offer significant advantage for the would-be cheater.

 

[Granville57]

Are there any other possibilities outside of motor technology?

Some sort of gyroscopic, rotational assistance?

Look, I've clearly got no idea what the hell I'm even talking about here, as this strays further from my field of expertise than one could possibly imagine. But I've always had a good imagination, (and my dad was actually an aeronautical engineer who worked on the Avro Arrow that I posted previously. Hence. Throughout my life, he was always the one suggesting solutions to mechanical problems in my world that never would have occurred to me. I haven't asked him about this one yet, but his influence inspired me to always look for radically different solutions than the ones that, at first, often present themselves as the most obvious).

Given that a bike already has its driving force being generated from the rider, is there another way to increase that force, or reduce the effort required to equal that force, besides a motor of some sort?

Feel free to mock. I promise not to take it personally.

 

[Gavandope]

Are there any other possibilities outside of motor technology?

Some sort of gyroscopic, rotational assistance?

Look, I've clearly got no idea what the hell I'm even talking about here, as this strays further from my field of expertise than one could possibly imagine. But I've always had a good imagination, (and my dad was actually an aeronautical engineer who worked on the Avro Arrow that I posted previously. Hence. Throughout my life, he was always the one suggesting solutions to mechanical problems in my world that never would have occurred to me. I haven't asked him about this one yet, but his influence inspired me to always look for radically different solutions than the ones that, at first, often present themselves as the most obvious).

Given that a bike already has its driving force being generated from the rider, is there another way to increase that force, or reduce the effort required to equal that force, besides a motor of some sort?

Feel free to mock. I promise not to take it personally.

No mocking here. - a flywheel can store energy for motion but that's totally unsuitable for a bike, with the momentum and forces it generates with braking spinning the flywheel back up to speed.

Fingers crossed that hydrogen fuel cells and lithium types takes the leaps forward I expect them to do within the next decade. There's just this huge chasm between the energy densities required at this moment and I don't think powering a bike with nuclear fission or fusion will get off the drawing board somehow lol.

As a nuke physics geek I look at the energy density of everything else that either generates or stores energy with dismay.

 

[GoodTimes]

Are there any other possibilities outside of motor technology?

Some sort of gyroscopic, rotational assistance?

Look, I've clearly got no idea what the hell I'm even talking about here, as this strays further from my field of expertise than one could possibly imagine. But I've always had a good imagination, (and my dad was actually an aeronautical engineer who worked on the Avro Arrow that I posted previously. Hence. Throughout my life, he was always the one suggesting solutions to mechanical problems in my world that never would have occurred to me. I haven't asked him about this one yet, but his influence inspired me to always look for radically different solutions than the ones that, at first, often present themselves as the most obvious).

Given that a bike already has its driving force being generated from the rider, is there another way to increase that force, or reduce the effort required to equal that force, besides a motor of some sort?

Feel free to mock. I promise not to take it personally.

I was thinking about this. Actually, you're comments about aerospace have inspired me a little bit. A jet on the back of the bike may be a bit too obvious in the middle of a bikerace. Much too noisy. But what about a discrete, and silent propeller? This seems like a distinct possibility to me. It could even be mounted on the rider, so as to avoid any detection during a bike inspection. With this line or reasoning, clearly the helmet would be the perfect spot to put it:

You'll all notice that it's positioned directly on top of the helmet. This is so that when froome looks @ his stem, the propeller would beoriented towards the fore, and provide some useful propulsion.

 

[Oldman]

I was thinking about this. Actually, you're comments about aerospace have inspired me a little bit. A jet on the back of the bike may be a bit too obvious in the middle of a bikerace. Much too noisy. But what about a discrete, and silent propeller? This seems like a distinct possibility to me. It could even be mounted on the rider, so as to avoid any detection during a bike inspection. With this line or reasoning, clearly the helmet would be the perfect spot to put it:

You'll all notice that it's positioned directly on top of the helmet. This is so that when froome looks @ his stem, the propeller would beoriented towards the fore, and provide some useful propulsion.

While this looks credible based on the discussion to this point there is another, more discrete but obvious propulsion source.
I suggest the propulsion could come from the subject's other end based on secret, dietary based expansive molecular bio-explosions. This would not only provide a short burst of added drive but serve to create a gap for the rider.

That's what I think.......

 

[D-Queued]

Hi Dave, appreciate the fuller picture.

...I admitted, up front, that this number was plucked out of thin air based on my experience as a starting point for discussion.

...

RE making conclusions without a background? I have a relevant university degree, and am practicing engineering in an area relevant to the conversation of complex dynamic mechanical systems, and have a decent working knowledge of motors. I have worked in the past doing engineering and design of systems that use / charge / test various battery types, however admittedly am not an expert.

But what, pray tell, do you do exactly? Do you ever offer opinions, conclusions, or facts on topics for which you have fewer than 10k hrs experience?

Last question first.

Yes.

1. I have never doped, but have written the equivalent of books on the subject. Commonly with lots of references, though.

2. I had no idea about what a psychopath/sociopath was until after I had suggested in a conversation that Lance was one. Only then did I start to do some homework. And, I did find a really cool website that could explain it in words I could understand.

Questions related to your assumptions:

Sorry, but I don't think it makes sense to comment on whether your assumptions, multiples, and other factors are correct or not. You could be close to right, or completely wrong. If you are completely wrong, then trying to fine tune assumptions is folly. As you readily admit that you have taken these out of thin air, then there is no sense in chasing down the rabbit hole.

Rather, I would encourage you to consider the fact that we have some working examples.

Thus, my suggestion would be to use exactly what these experts have developed, or failed to develop as our only known options. They have already gone through extensive learning and had to face the practical design challenges.

What you appear to be suggesting appears to be a step function in improvement from industrial technologies that are already highly optimized with extensive learning curve experience behind them.

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

No mocking here. - a flywheel can store energy for motion but that's totally unsuitable for a bike, with the momentum and forces it generates with braking spinning the flywheel back up to speed.

Fingers crossed that hydrogen fuel cells and lithium types takes the leaps forward I expect them to do within the next decade. There's just this huge chasm between the energy densities required at this moment and I don't think powering a bike with nuclear fission or fusion will get off the drawing board somehow lol.

As a nuke physics geek I look at the energy density of everything else that either generates or stores energy with dismay.

Though I don't want to dash your hopes, you can probably uncross your fingers and invest the energy on other avenues and endeavors.

There has been more than one attempt to commercialize a two wheeler with a fuel cell. In one of those commercialization approaches the company, notably, switched to stationary generators instead.

Setting aside the complete lack of fueling infrastructure, Hydrogen, for one, is a very challenging little molecule to deal with. Damn thing doesn't like to be compressed. I'm sure you have some experience with its use as a coolant with your nuke background. There are arguments that metal hydrides could be ideal storage for such an application. But, metal hydrides are really heavy... so back to spinning around in circles all over again.

As for nuclear powered bicycles, I think you nailed it. Not sure about bicycles, but there has been research papers on nuclear powered spaceships for some time. Always amazing what you can get a research grant for. But, in comparing the options for a bicycle, at least fuel cells have actually successfully been in space.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

Are there any other possibilities outside of motor technology?

Some sort of gyroscopic, rotational assistance?

Look, I've clearly got no idea what the hell I'm even talking about here, as this strays further from my field of expertise than one could possibly imagine. But I've always had a good imagination, (and my dad was actually an aeronautical engineer who worked on the Avro Arrow that I posted previously. Hence. Throughout my life, he was always the one suggesting solutions to mechanical problems in my world that never would have occurred to me. I haven't asked him about this one yet, but his influence inspired me to always look for radically different solutions than the ones that, at first, often present themselves as the most obvious).

Given that a bike already has its driving force being generated from the rider, is there another way to increase that force, or reduce the effort required to equal that force, besides a motor of some sort?

i suggested something similar a few days ago. it wasn't picked up by the discussants (though hitherto not mocked either)
my point was, i don't need a battery to get my bicycle lamp up and running.
i need a dynamo and i need speed.
also (as you probably know, since i think you provided the link), chris boardman gave us a couple of clues where the power supply might be, but it seems this hasn't been picked up by the current discussants either.

 

[Microchip]

... In fact, if GoodTimes could truly demonstrate this device I could probably point him towards some VC money and set him on a path to becoming the next billionaire.

Dave.

If this is what you do (make people rich)... I'd be interested in becoming a billionaire...!

 

[GoodTimes]

Everybody knows that black absorbs more heat from the sun. Yet we see team sky wearing black... and riding black bikes. anybody else suspicious? Well, now we've figured it out. Recent brakethrus in solar technology have allowed PV to be integrated into clothing, and paint. And, solar would eliminate the need for batteries to be carried on the bike....

See below for the proof...

http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/03/spray-painted-solar-cells/
http://design-milk.com/wearable-solar-clothing-charges-smartphone/

The depth that sky sinks to never ceases to amaze.

[Do I need to mention that I'm being sarcastic?]

 

[Gavandope]

Though I don't want to dash your hopes, you can probably uncross your fingers and invest the energy on other avenues and endeavors.

There has been more than one attempt to commercialize a two wheeler with a fuel cell. In one of those commercialization approaches the company, notably, switched to stationary generators instead.

Setting aside the complete lack of fueling infrastructure, Hydrogen, for one, is a very challenging little molecule to deal with. Damn thing doesn't like to be compressed. I'm sure you have some experience with its use as a coolant with your nuke background. There are arguments that metal hydrides could be ideal storage for such an application. But, metal hydrides are really heavy... so back to spinning around in circles all over again.

As for nuclear powered bicycles, I think you nailed it. Not sure about bicycles, but there has been research papers on nuclear powered spaceships for some time. Always amazing what you can get a research grant for. But, in comparing the options for a bicycle, at least fuel cells have actually successfully been in space.

Dave.

Hydrides seem promising but we won't see anything for a while yet I think - but the trickles down from f1 and the manufacturers involved in it will start to become a flow of improvements. Renault, Mercedes, McLaren, BMW etc will certainly provide a far bigger push with hundreds the investment in it that Murdoch will ever do with sky.

Hydrogen is a pesky thing to separate correctly, it requires a lot of heat in the process to separate and that's expensive now unless we have a cheap very hot heat source. That won't happen sadly until the UK or USA pull their finger out and make a decent gen iv reactor such as a thorium msr, which uses LiFLBe as a coolant molten salt which melts at 350c and optimal at double that. This lithium fluoride beryllium salt is roughly the same mixture they are currently using to transfer heat from these concentratrated solar arrays to generate electricity. It's far more efficient at converting that heat than steam or anything else, runs at low pressure but high temperatures the opposite of steam. Solidifies to a rock salt and is non soluble to water or air. You can imagine my frustration watching the chinese sink millions into a gen iv reactor of this type using this coolant instead of solid fuel while us and the states do nothing...

I don't believe that they have a fluoride salt compound that melts at a low enough temperature to make it viable for energy storage to store in a thermos to power a bike sadly

 

[GoodTimes]

Hydrides seem promising but we won't see anything for a while yet I think - but the trickles down from f1 and the manufacturers involved in it will start to become a flow of improvements. Renault, Mercedes, McLaren, BMW etc will certainly provide a far bigger push with hundreds the investment in it that Murdoch will ever do with sky.
...

I used to be quite involved in electric cars, smart grid, energy storage, that sort of thing....

I'm amazed that you see more money coming at this from the F1 side of things than from more general automotive industries RE the leaf, volt, etc. Although maybe I shouldnt be too surprised, as so many of the things our standard ICE take for granted are trickle down from F1 as well.

There is a co-gen plant across the street from where I work. They have a contract w the government to provide power to the grid at about 5x market value. There used to be a mfg plant that used the steam. Now...? It goes straight into the air. Our government is nuts! I don't really have a good idea of how much energy it is, but suspect in the 10s of kW. Tap into that for your hydrogen generation why dont you....