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Ryders crash -motor?

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G

Gavandope

Jul 25, 2014
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GoodTimes said:
I used to be quite involved in electric cars, smart grid, energy storage, that sort of thing....

I'm amazed that you see more money coming at this from the F1 side of things than from more general automotive industries RE the leaf, volt, etc. Although maybe I shouldnt be too surprised, as so many of the things our standard ICE take for granted are trickle down from F1 as well.

There is a co-gen plant across the street from where I work. They have a contract w the government to provide power to the grid at about 5x market value. There used to be a mfg plant that used the steam. Now...? It goes straight into the air. Our government is nuts! I don't really have a good idea of how much energy it is, but suspect in the 10s of kW. Tap into that for your hydrogen generation why dont you....
Click to expand...

For cycling you can credit f1/Motorsports with pioneering the technology for - carbon fibre for frames, wheels, new tyre compounds, exotic lightweight alloys for gear seats, braking systems and pad compounds. Covers a lot!

I could rant on all day about energy, storage you name it and get my post moved sideways. You could call me a nuclear power junkie for baseline energy to get rid of all fossil fuel electric plants - but I want rid of the current uranium reactors too which are an incredibly stupid and inefficient way to provide the huge increase in power needed for us all to go electic. A pressurised water reactor like Chernobyl three mile island and Fukushima etc are inherently unsafe by design. A thorium msr reactor is the opposite, can use all the waste plutonium and actinides so no yucca mountain needed in the USA cos you can fission nearly all of it! I'd better stop now, sorry mods!

Though if I get a chance and work dies down a bit I might consider working out the concept of using a thermos flask of flibe salt heated to a very high temperature (850c maybe) and how much energy it could transfer as electricity to power a bike. With a micro brayton gas turbine hooked up to transfer all that thermal energy into electricity to power a motor on a bike :D
 
D-Queued

D-Queued

May 27, 2010
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Gavandope said:
...

Hydrogen is a pesky thing to separate correctly, it requires a lot of heat in the process to separate and that's expensive now unless we have a cheap very hot heat source. ...

...(
Click to expand...

Had the (mis)fortune to be stuck at a massive Air Liquide industrial gas facility one day.

With all the industrial gases on site, including some really, really nasty stuff, my curiosity was piqued. "Of all of these gases, which one do you least like to work with?"

The answer startled me, due to its inherent safety and non-toxicity, etc., but you have likely guessed it: Hydrogen.

Q: <startled> "Why would that be?"

A: "It is really hard to handle. Our compressor breaks down daily because it is so hard to compress such a small molecule. When transferring it, we have to slowly pass it through a cascade system to manage the expansion and rapid cooling..."

Q: Oh. <Visions of Hydrogen economy vaporizing>


It isn't that hard to get H2. And, it is literally (almost) everywhere.

Just try and deal with real world issues like storing it, transfering it, etc.

That isn't even considering real technical challenges like Hydrogen embrittlement problems, etc. Nor whether it needs flame colorants, odorants, etc., to be a real fuel with all of their added complexity and subsequent problems if then used in things like fuel cells.

Dave.
 
G

Gavandope

Jul 25, 2014
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D-Queued said:
Had the (mis)fortune to be stuck at a massive Air Liquide industrial gas facility one day.

With all the industrial gases on site, including some really, really nasty stuff, my curiosity was piqued. "Of all of these gases, which one do you least like to work with?"

The answer startled me, due to its inherent safety and non-toxicity, etc., but you have likely guessed it: Hydrogen.

Q: <startled> "Why would that be?"

A: "It is really hard to handle. Our compressor breaks down daily because it is so hard to compress such a small molecule. When transferring it, we have to slowly pass it through a cascade system to manage the expansion and rapid cooling..."

Q: Oh. <Visions of Hydrogen economy vaporizing>


It isn't that hard to get H2. And, it is literally (almost) everywhere.

Just try and deal with real world issues like storing it, transfering it, etc.

That isn't even considering real technical challenges like Hydrogen embrittlement problems, etc. Nor whether it needs flame colorants, odorants, etc., to be a real fuel with all of their added complexity and subsequent problems if then used in things like fuel cells.

Dave.
Click to expand...

From a nuke standpoint I could say exactly the same about handling tritium gas, the one that's in the news with leaks from old nuke plants. Thing is though that tritium eventually decays into helium-3 which currently can only be found on the moon in large quantities (hence those moon mining stories) and is an essential ingredient for a tokamak fusion reactor. We truly have no strategic long term logical thinking about energy both here and in the states.

Though the current thinking about h2 is still the same about oil and gas and to a lesser extent electricity. One big plant then ship it everywhere across states/nation. My thoughts are smaller 150mw modular msr's connected to local grids with all that 800 degrees of heat that's been spun through the brayton for power also being used to say desalinate water or even separate h2 for local not national distribution. Less time stored before usage - less leakage.

The challenge of storing h2 is there to overcome just like many other challenges to get rid of fossil fuels - sadly governments think that businesses can do the research of overcome these problems when clearly they are happy with the status Quo continuing. Maddening and unscientific!
 
D-Queued

D-Queued

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BTW - Here's the 'state of the art' in bicycle motors as introduced at Interbike:

http://n2a.goexposoftware.com/events/ib14/goExpo/exhibitor/viewExhibitorProfile.php?__id=595&pi=17

wrt to the discussion on batteries in the comments above in this thread, please note this interesting part of the product description:

"Just like cars, gears are utilized to optimize the motor’s RPM in order to save on energy and avoid overheating..."

Hmm... avoid overheating? Optimize the motor's RPM (you mean it doesn't have a wide range)? That is part of the marketing description? Must be a few technical challenges involved in this application.

Dave.
 
G

Gavandope

Jul 25, 2014
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D-Queued said:
BTW - Here's the 'state of the art' in bicycle motors as introduced at Interbike:

http://n2a.goexposoftware.com/events/ib14/goExpo/exhibitor/viewExhibitorProfile.php?__id=595&pi=17

wrt to the discussion on batteries in the comments above in this thread, please note this interesting part of the product description:

"Just like cars, gears are utilized to optimize the motor’s RPM in order to save on energy and avoid overheating..."

Hmm... avoid overheating? Optimize the motor's RPM (you mean it doesn't have a wide range)? That is part of the marketing description? Must be a few technical challenges involved in this application.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Or perhaps cheap motors made in the Far East using cheap copper windings and magnets. Decent high quality motors aren't cheap!
 
G

GoodTimes

May 2, 2013
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D-Queued said:
BTW - Here's the 'state of the art' in bicycle motors as introduced at Interbike:

http://n2a.goexposoftware.com/events/ib14/goExpo/exhibitor/viewExhibitorProfile.php?__id=595&pi=17

wrt to the discussion on batteries in the comments above in this thread, please note this interesting part of the product description:

"Just like cars, gears are utilized to optimize the motor’s RPM in order to save on energy and avoid overheating..."

Hmm... avoid overheating? Optimize the motor's RPM (you mean it doesn't have a wide range)? That is part of the marketing description? Must be a few technical challenges involved in this application.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Cool link.

I think you missed an important part of the quote:

"With a rear or front hub motor, the motor does not work together with the mechanical gears on the bike, which limits the efficiency of the motor. Just like cars, gears are utilized to optimize the motor’s RPM in order to save on energy and avoid overheating."

I was actually thinking about this already, and is a fundamental problem with a hub motor. It needs to be sized large enough / geared down sufficiently to provide sufficient torque at the lowest speeds. But then, as speed increases, the power goes up, and also waste heat.....

At lower bike speeds, such as when climbing a big mountain, torque requirements are highest (my proposed 25W motor would require approx 2 Nm of torque (if run at a 1:1 ratio with wheel rotation). I did a quick survey of hobby motors, and power tool motors, etc. Not state of the art stuff, but at least a decent bench mark. For the proposed motor power, the torques that I saw being mentioned were more on the order of 0.06 Nm. IE, it needs to be geared down about 100:1. Now, for the record, these motors, along with a gearbox, only weigh ~ 50g, which is very reasonable.

So now, you have to fit a large ratio gearbox inside of the hub as well. It might be possible, but it would be a difficult problem to overcome, and a lot more complicated / weighty / spacious than just using the existing axle as the rotor for the motor.

And, even if you managed it, your hub motor would only be usable at a specific range of bike velocities (say, 15 to 20 kmph). You would have to tune the gearbox ratio for what ever speed you wanted. So a finish up Angrilu would need a different gearbox than, say, the Alp, or say, a fast Murito finish, or a flat TT.

Or, you could increase the windings on the motor so that you can get enough torque at these low speeds without a gearbox. But then, your nice weight efficient design goes out the window.

It's like riding a fixed gear a bit. If you want to climb a mountain on a fixxie, you either need an easy gear, or really strong legs. In this case, the strong-leg option weighs a ton, and the easy gear means it don't help you no where else.


Again, not impossible (as far as I can see). Just very tricky from a mechanical pov, in the space envelope allowed, and with any flexibility.


Based on the above, and given the absolute absence of any reference projects using a hub motor, I would be extremely surprised if anybody in the pro peleton has ever used a hub motor.
 
G

Gavandope

Jul 25, 2014
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GoodTimes said:
Cool link.

I think you missed an important part of the quote:

"With a rear or front hub motor, the motor does not work together with the mechanical gears on the bike, which limits the efficiency of the motor. Just like cars, gears are utilized to optimize the motor’s RPM in order to save on energy and avoid overheating."

I was actually thinking about this already, and is a fundamental problem with a hub motor. It needs to be sized large enough / geared down sufficiently to provide sufficient torque at the lowest speeds. But then, as speed increases, the power goes up, and also waste heat.....

At lower bike speeds, such as when climbing a big mountain, torque requirements are highest (my proposed 25W motor would require approx 2 Nm of torque (if run at a 1:1 ratio with wheel rotation). I did a quick survey of hobby motors, and power tool motors, etc. Not state of the art stuff, but at least a decent bench mark. For the proposed motor power, the torques that I saw being mentioned were more on the order of 0.06 Nm. IE, it needs to be geared down about 100:1. Now, for the record, these motors, along with a gearbox, only weigh ~ 50g, which is very reasonable.

So now, you have to fit a large ratio gearbox inside of the hub as well. It might be possible, but it would be a difficult problem to overcome, and a lot more complicated / weighty / spacious than just using the existing axle as the rotor for the motor.

And, even if you managed it, your hub motor would only be usable at a specific range of bike velocities (say, 15 to 20 kmph). You would have to tune the gearbox ratio for what ever speed you wanted. So a finish up Angrilu would need a different gearbox than, say, the Alp, or say, a fast Murito finish, or a flat TT. It's like riding a fixed gear.

Again, not impossible (as far as I can see). Just very tricky from a mechanical pov, in the space envelope allowed, and with any flexibility.

Or, you could increase the windings on the motor so that you can get enough torque at these low speeds without a gearbox. But then, your nice weight efficient design goes out the window.

Based on the above, and given the absolute absence of any reference projects using a hub motor, I would be extremely surprised if anybody in the pro peleton has ever used a hub motor.
Click to expand...

I think for performance and efficiency a crank motor is the way to go, though it has a be a really well made one. The difference between a cheap and nasty motor and a really good one, such as those made for aerospace/defence is as stark as looking at different classes of bike.

Cheap - reclaimed/recycled copper, inefficient magnets, excessive outer casing, weak spindles. Poor heat dissipation and unreliable.

Quality - pure ofc strands, rare earth and high quality magnets, cnc machined casing and a spindle made of high quality alloy that can handle any torque you throw at it.
 
M

michel700c

Jan 27, 2010
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Microchip said:
Didn't know Lance was connected to a motorised bike. Interesting.

bicitruccata_logo.png


I was wondering if the above website was made as a gimmick for the occasion) but info on them shows that they've been registered since 2009 and last updated in 2013. :rolleyes: hmm....the topic is intriguing.
Click to expand...

So has anyone seen or ridden one of these? Looks mighty interesting!
 
D-Queued

D-Queued

May 27, 2010
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GoodTimes said:
....


Based on the above, and given the absolute absence of any reference projects using a hub motor, I would be extremely surprised if anybody in the pro peleton has ever used a hub motor.
Click to expand...

Reading on further through the new product releases at Interbike, and lo and behold we have the latest and greatest in hub motors:

http://n2a.goexposoftware.com/events/ib14/goExpo/exhibitor/viewExhibitorProfile.php?__id=292&pi=31

BionXDSeriesmotor-image1-1409167446_tn.jpg


Did anyone happen to notice anything resembling this on Ryder's bike?

Dave.
 
G

Gavandope

Jul 25, 2014
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D-Queued said:
Just for the record, Intel's highest quality factories are in China.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Of course. Semi fabrication plants have some of the highest startup costs period - a billion bucks setting up these fabs to produce semis by cutting them out the wafers and packaging them. It's a very automated clean room kind of plant though.

If I give an example of a very well known electric motor company - pabst. I just found out they are a partner with Mercedes AMG Petronas, the dominant by miles F1 team running the hybrids this season.

They have factories in Germany, USA and China. I would imagine that the high volume low cost parts are produced in one place and the low volume, expensively engineered high costs are in the others.

These high end engineering firms are one of the few things really left of the UK's manufacturing industry; F1,Rolls-Royce Aero and defence related stuff. They cannot compete with low cost high production so they target the top end of the market where they truly can compete. I would imagine in the DC motor industry its not different.
 
Microchip

Microchip

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A New Way To Transmit Power

GoodTimes said:
Everybody knows that black absorbs more heat from the sun. Yet we see team sky wearing black... and riding black bikes. anybody else suspicious? Well, now we've figured it out. Recent brakethrus in solar technology have allowed PV to be integrated into clothing, and paint. And, solar would eliminate the need for batteries to be carried on the bike....

See below for the proof...

http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/03/spray-painted-solar-cells/
http://design-milk.com/wearable-solar-clothing-charges-smartphone/

The depth that sky sinks to never ceases to amaze.

[Do I need to mention that I'm being sarcastic?]
Click to expand...

:D :)

black.jpg
 
Microchip

Microchip

Jul 23, 2010
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Visit site
GoodTimes said:
Everybody knows that black absorbs more heat from the sun. Yet we see team sky wearing black... and riding black bikes. anybody else suspicious? Well, now we've figured it out. Recent brakethrus in solar technology have allowed PV to be integrated into clothing, and paint. And, solar would eliminate the need for batteries to be carried on the bike....

See below for the proof...

http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/03/spray-painted-solar-cells/
http://design-milk.com/wearable-solar-clothing-charges-smartphone/

The depth that sky sinks to never ceases to amaze.

[Do I need to mention that I'm being sarcastic?]
Click to expand...

:D Funny comment!! (See Pelotoon, posted it here by mistake...lol)
 
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